Driving a Tesla on Shabbos

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  • #2093385

    D’rabanan in a makom mitzva is mutar on shabbos, so driving a tesla (which is d’rabanan) to davening lechoira should be mutar since its a makom mitzvah.

    #2093431
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Even if it is a d’rabanan it can lead to a d’oraisa, so daven at home or go to a shul in your close neighborhood.

    #2093451
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Even though D’rabanan, chazal bring down that is is mutar only in a “self-driving” mode, similiar to getting on/off a shabbos elevator.

    #2093460
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Double derabonons, called shvus dshvus, like asking a goy to do a derabonon, is mutar in most cases for a mitzvah.

    Chas veshalom to say that all derabonons are mutar for mitzvos. They’re not. One can never be mechalel shabbos derabonon, not for mitzvos, not for loss of money, not for anything short of pikuach nefesh.

    #2093496
    Benephraim
    Participant

    Is אמירה לעכום permissible for an איסור דאורייתא if it is במקום מצווה? How about an איסור דרבנן which is במקום מצוה or even not במקום מצוה? would love to hear your פשט.

    #2093502
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    It’s not my pshat, it’s just shulchan aruch. Amira leakum is mutar when it’s a derabonon for a mitzvah, including necessities of shabbos like having the air conditioner on, or turning off lights to be able to sleep.

    Amira leakum is mutar for deraysos for a choleh, even if not in life danger.

    #2093504
    akuperma
    Participant

    Once you hold that using electricity on Shabbos is allowed (on the theory it involves no open flame, and ignoring the the flow of the current very slowly consumer the medium used to transmit the current and generates heat), you could use computers, turn on lights, use smartphones, etc. You could be a “Conservative” and delude yourself into thinking you are still frum.

    #2093508
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Electricity is such a difficult question to begin with. I do believe that most poskim quietly agree that there’s no general issur of using electricity since neither the act of boneh nor aish occurs in many modern uses. Sephardim, including the Ben Ish Chai, used electricity on Shabbos for decades until Chacham Ovadia Yosef ZT”L paskened to not turn on lights. But since aish and boneh do commonly occur it’s far simply to just assur all electricity.

    What I mean is that it’s quite possible that driving a Tesla may only incur an issur of breaking a minhag or universal chumra.

    #2093542
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Rav moshe allowed a hearing aid to be worn on shabbos because it isn’t noticeably zilzul shabbos, which he held was a problem. He held that the other issurim involved weren’t clear, and that while they’re enough to asser in general, for a choleh we can be lenient.

    #2093540
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Yserb, you’re severely misinformed. Sefardim did not use electricity on shabbos, especially not the ben ish chai. Some of their poskim misunderstood how electricity works (as did some of ashkenazi gedolim) and permitted it on yom tov because of aish m’aish, which the aruch hashulchan had suggested.

    #2093529
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Only a shevus deshvus (double derabonon) bemakom mitzva is mutar.

    #2093551
    Kuvult
    Participant

    A friend of mine who came from Iran told me they used electricity there on Shabbos (not for everything).

    #2093560

    Well, you can probably pre-program Tesla similarly to a shabbos elevator so it will stop and go whether you are there or not.

    Note that Tesla is not supposed to be left unattended. Maybe a way out is that the driver only gets involved when there is risk to life and that becomes mutar. Then the question would be – how often one needs to get involved. Can we assume that most trips will not require intervention? depends on your route, I guess. If you are going through a neighborhood where buchrim will be jumping in front of the car shouting “shabbos” at you, you (or them) may be out of luck.

    #2093573
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Alternatively, if you can get Elon Musk to volunteer as your shabbos goy, just make sure you get into your Model X prior to licht benchen and the rest will just happen.

    #2093786
    OrangeCountyChapper
    Participant

    It’s totally conceivable that by 2030 a self driving car will permit you to enter and take control with facial recognition, respond to “take me to Reb Pinchas’s shtiebel, but park two blocks away”. You won’t need to touch anything. Note I could have told the car before Shabbos to take me to the big shul, but I changed my mind.

    Question for today – Can one ask Siri on Shabbos morning to set an alarm in case I get distracted, so I get to shul on time?

    #2093801
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    My CPAP machine for sleep apnea when I put it on and start breathing into it turns on the machine but sometimes it does not go on right away so it is not a pesik reishe. Does Siri when talking to it turn itself on?

    #2093812
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb E, a choleh has a heter, as above. Requiring CPAP would have that status (not saying you are a choleh for everything, just for that)

    #2093815
    Shlomo 2
    Participant

    OrangeCOuntyChapper:
    For a discussion of your question,
    see issues 129-132 of the journal אמונת עתיך
    For the second article in the series, Google אמירה למכונה בשבת – הפעלת עוזר וירטואלי באמצעות דיבור בלבד

    #2093824
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Cool shailoh with speaking to electronics. Do we say “akimas sefasayim” is a maysoh? Especially when it’s the derech to work the machine that way

    #2093836
    OrangeCountyChapper
    Participant

    Shlomo 2: Excellent article! Reading it made me think past the alarm and the need to turn it off. Unless I can set Siri’s alarm before shabbos, and do it in such a way that I don’t risk illuminating Siri’s screen by telling it to shtil, I’m better off keeping it old shool and looking at the clock.

    So a self driving car would have to be similarly programmed to ensure no verbal or physical interventions are required to control the car or its accessories. It would also need a sign on the driver’s door for any policeman that might pull you over. “Attention Law Enforcement: This is a Shomer Shabbos vehicle. Occupants have no control over its operation.” I’ll wait for others to try this first 🙂

    #2093837
    Milhouse
    Participant

    D’rabanan in a makom mitzva is mutar on shabbos

    That is absolutely not true. Rachmana litzlan if anyone were to follow that advice! If fulfilling a mitzvah d’oraisa requires violating an issur derabanan you may NOT fulfill the mitzvah. Shev ve’al ta’aseh.

    Double derabonons, called shvus dshvus, like asking a goy to do a derabonon, is mutar in most cases for a mitzvah.

    This is closer, but still not correct. A double derabanan is mutar if and only if it is absolutely impossible to fulfill the mitzvah at all without it. If there is some way to keep both the mitzvah and the double-derabanan prohibition, even if the mitzvah’s fulfillment will only be minimal, without the usual hiddurim, one may not violate the prohibition.

    Therefore even if driving a Tesla is mid’rabanan it would still be forbidden even if that means not davening at all, let alone merely not doing so in shul. Only if it’s a double derabanan, and there’s a mitzvah that can’t be fulfilled any other way, would it be mutar.

    #2093842
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Milhouse, well stated. See the RMA O’CH 276,2 bringing the view of the Baal Haitur about amira leakim.

    #2093849
    Shlomo 2
    Participant

    Avira:
    See the first article in the journal I mentioned before (vol 129).
    (And continue with vols 130-132 for the continuation and the responses.)
    דיבור כמעשה – הבעיות ההלכתיות
    הכרוכות בהפעלת ‘עוזר אישי’ בשבת

    OrangeCountyChapper:
    Glad you appreciated it.
    See the webpage of the main author of that article (Rav Prof Dror Fixler) for tens of discussions on similar issues.

    #2093872
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer,

    Siri and Alexa are constantly listening in order to pick up “Alexa” or “hey Siri” so they should be unplugged or put on mute

    #2093882
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    In my bochur days, one shabbos a fellow in the dorm left an iron on over shabbos. It was a potential sakanah, and we had no one to ask. We went to a fire department closeby to ask if they would do it, and to tell us if it was in fact dangerous – they laughed us off….so we decided among ourselves to make it a quadruple derabonon. One, unplugging electric appliances is derabonon according to most. Two, it’s melacha sheaina tzricha legufah. Three, we did it with a shinui…and the funniest addition was that we did it “shnayim she’asu” by having one guy put his toe on one side of the plug, and another put his toe on the opposite side, pulling it out together.

    Rav Belsky chuckled at our bochurishe “ingenuity”, and said we did fine.

    #2093897

    I had a shiur a couple of years ago on a serious question re:self-driving cars. The car will have an algorithm dealing with sakana nefashos situations, such as having a choice whom to hit. What if the algorithm is against halakha, then by agreeing to drive it, you sign up to doing a wrong thing. One can imagine the algorithm not just choosing to turn into someone instead of doing nothing as halakha requires when there is such a choice, but, say, doing face recognition and checking who has insurance and who has family to sue and choosing the best option from the damages point of view.

    #2093909
    yitz17
    Participant

    Driving on shabbos is also considered ho’tza’ah on the car according to reb Moshe. He wrote this in regard to his shita that we consider the number of cars that drive on a given road to give that road a din of reshus harabim, such as Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn. There were those, such as Rav Menashe Klein who disagreed based on the argument that a car, based on its size, is a reshus hachid and so the drivers are in their personal reshus hayachid and are not considered to be on the road they are driving on. Reb Moshe wrote that a person driving a car is considerd to be using the road he’s driving on and is moving his car through the street and he writes that if he drives 4 amohs in a reshus harabim he’s chayev for being ma’avir daled amos b’reshus harabim. So this is a clear psak from reb Moshe that driving a car is considered ho’tza’ah on the car.
    And as to the sheila of whether getting a machine to do something through “speaking to it”, if what the machine does is considered his actions in regard to shabbos the same sheila existed with cars for a long time because the fuel injection is done by a computer and all pressing on the gas does is to send a message to the computer. There should be no difference whether he commands a machine by “speaking” to it or pressing a button.

    #2093916
    Shlomo 2
    Participant

    Coffee Addict: I suggest you read the series of articles I linked to.

    #2093917
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    מחמר אחר בהמתו, having his animal carry through his voice is assur on Shabbos.

    #2093938
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb E, i think that’s because we’re mitzuveh on shvisas behemos. We don’t hold of shvisas keilim.

    #2093950
    emeslaamito
    Participant

    I always wondered if Hatzolah Ambulances and personal vehicles should be electric and if it would kedai to spend money on this. I’ve heard some ambulances had their ‘old’ light bulbs swapped out for LED’s, but I assume if they were be all electric, it would be better.

    #2093951
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I wanted to prove that akimas sefosayim haveh maaseh so maybe an outside source from a machine is the same.

    #2093980
    Shlomo 2
    Participant

    Hate to be a broken record here, but Reb Eliezer, while your sevora seems quite reasonable, I do suggest you read the series of articles I recommended before thinking you’ve proven anything.
    דיבור כמעשה – הבעיות ההלכתיות
    הכרוכות בהפעלת ‘עוזר אישי’ בשבת

    And then
    אמירה למכונה בשבת – הפעלת עוזר וירטואלי באמצעות דיבור בלבד

    #2093986
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb E – i know that’s your intention, but by mechamer we are achrai on the totza’ah, that melacha shouldn’t be done by the animals, because we’re commanded on shvisas behemos. We don’t have a proof from there that akimas sefasayim is a maysoh.

    #2093990
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I don’t understand you, we must tie the maasei of the animal to the individual with the his maasei being performed.

    #2093993
    OrangeCountyChapper
    Participant

    Would riding in an automated vehicle that requires no active controls or commands still be considered ho’tza’ah? If that’s OK, then I shouldn’t have to wait for the technology. I could have a shabbos goy pick me up in a conventional car and take me home based on the shul’s schedule, as long as I have no interaction (spoken words, hand gestures) with the goy.

    And back when there were human elevator operators, were shabbos elevators necessary? As long as the operator recognized you on the ground floor, he could take you to the correct floor for your apartment. (But you’d have to walk downstairs when going to shul)

    #2094007
    ujm
    Participant

    I once saw a Rabbi give someone a heter to take a car service home from the hospital after she was discharged (and healthy). I didn’t get any of the details why he gave that heter.

    #2094342
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @emeslaamito An electric motor than can manage an ambulance hasn’t been invented yet. Not only do ambulances have to have great speeds and acceleration, but they also need the power to run a whole lot of electronic equipment. That’s why there are no fully electric minivans or busses yet.

    #2094392
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ujm, many poskim (actually, I’ve yet to hear an opposing view) allow driving back or getting a ride from the hospital (preferably through a goy) because staying overnight at a hospital is dangerous, as there is a very high concentration of germs and risk of unusual infections, such as super bugs.

    #2094837
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Yitz,

    It should be noted that Rav Moshe was very firm that cars do not interfere with the concept of Rishus Harabim. Rav Aaron Kotler as well. But it still would not be hotzeah. Because the car itself is always in it’s own place.

    #2094842
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    On the original question, why is driving a bigger mitzvah than walking?

    #2094841
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Coffee,

    For that reason, remove Siri and Alexa completely. It’s unreal how much they interfere, especially as the software ages.

    #2094840
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    The IDF put together a fleet of Shabbos Vehicles years ago. It was obvious that it would be of no benefit in non emergency situations, because it is always a matter of an appearance of Chillul Shabbos in public.

    #2095241

    > always a matter of an appearance of Chillul Shabbos in public.

    just drive by shinui – backwards, pushing gas with your hands, and steering with your feet

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