December 3, 2011 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #984087moi aussiMember
Wolf, this thread is about teenage girls sitting at a Shabbes table with bochurim (unmarried boys).
If you’re a bochur, then discussing your teenage nieces, is relevant. (You could marry your niece). However if you’re a married man, then this discussion is not about YOU.December 3, 2011 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #984088WolfishMusingsParticipant
Wolf, this thread is about teenage girls sitting at a Shabbes table with bochurim (unmarried boys).
The OP made no such qualification.
Or is it your contention that it’s perfectly acceptable for me to eat at a table with teenage girls?
The WolfDecember 4, 2011 2:03 am at 2:03 am #984089zincase1Member
you guys are so krum. every single yeshiva bochur is definitely thinking about a girl sitting at the same table. its unbelieveable that anyone in their right mind would say its not a problem because “hashem created families with both genders”. whether its asur is one issue, buts its for sure not right, and any bochur who is concerned for his ruchniyus shouldnt b going to meals where there r teenage girls who arent his relatives. oh, by the way, shmoozing w cousins or aunts is also assurDecember 4, 2011 2:13 am at 2:13 am #984090cinderellaParticipant
zincase1- where exactly does it say that it’s assur??December 4, 2011 2:22 am at 2:22 am #984091stanleycParticipant
Shmuzing b’derech chiba is assur with any woman, even if shes related. So shmuzing with your cousin or aunt could technically be assur. For your aunt, though, it shouldnt normally be problematicDecember 4, 2011 4:43 am at 4:43 am #984092WolfishMusingsParticipant
Shmuzing b’derech chiba is assur with any woman, even if shes related.
So, let’s see…
I told Eees this week that I love her. One sin.
I mentioned to my mother how much I love her. Another sin.
I did the same for my grandmother as well. A third sin.
I even told my sister that I love her. A fourth sin.
As for my teenage daughter, I actually kisser her, so that’s surely a one-way ticket to the worst possible punishments in the afterlife.
(And before anyone jumps on me, the poster said “any woman” without any qualifications — and specifically included relatives with no exceptions mentioned.)December 4, 2011 6:33 am at 6:33 am #984093
wolf- lol!!!December 4, 2011 6:36 am at 6:36 am #984094
my question is why would a single guy even want to sit at a table with teenage girls?? If your a frum erliche person it just doesn’t pus to do so.December 4, 2011 6:47 am at 6:47 am #984095Sam2Participant
StanleyC: I don’t think you understand what “Schmoozing Derech Chibah” means.December 4, 2011 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #984098
“Half – Who are you fooling?”real-brisker
Half – Are you not; Qtpie, IceCream:::::::::, mentsch., brichtcoloeredkettlers………?
Mods – In conjunction with my previous post in the LH Thread. –>Half = “Qtpie and Crew”. Ones gotta be blind not to be able to pick up a Troll’er..
Mods, can you get this guy off my back please. I don’t appreciate the abuse and the absurd accusations.December 4, 2011 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #984099am yisrael chaiMember
Half – You still haven’t answered me.December 6, 2011 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #984100
I didnt mean to start chas vshaolom fights…I just wanted to know what the rest of klal yisrael feels….I ask forgivness for starting something that started such sinus chinamDecember 7, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #984103
Real brisker- I wrote a response to you earlier and I’m not too sure why it was deleted…
I only have 1 username. so I don’t know how you came to that aronious conclusion.
corey; nothing to ask forgiveness for… you havn’t caused any machlokes between anyone nor have you done anyting wrong, hurtful, or nasty.
real-brisker; there is really no reason to try and “bad mouth” me in that way. not to mention the massive offense you have caused by assuming that I would behave as such. I forgive you and I honestly don’t wish to cause anymore rift than what has already been done overhere… I should hope you didn’t mean any harm in your FALSE accusations.-Sometimes people don’t realise the ramifications of thier words. I guess if the human eye was preview to the other side of the tapestry they would realise that there is alot more out there than meets the human eye…December 8, 2011 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #984105real-briskerMember
Half / QTpie – Uhu, Right.December 8, 2011 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #984106mikehall12382Member
Teenage Daughters should be forced to eat in the backyard, food can be passed to them through a window…problem solved…December 8, 2011 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #984108
real brisker- what makes you think my username is cute?? Is it my subtitle??
BTW: Mods thanks for my subtitle, I’d say it’s a shtikle random, but it’s CUTE anyway;)!! LOL!December 22, 2011 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #984109
This post is about teenage daughters eating over at other peoples houses..Not a place to comment on whether you like someone elses username…lolDecember 23, 2011 6:14 am at 6:14 am #984110RABBAIMParticipant
If you want to let the satan decide shiduchim values and priorities and more, go ahead.January 27, 2012 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #984112
Why woud the satan decide shidduchim? He dosnt seem to be doing a good job at solving the crisis??January 28, 2012 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #984113
if you really think this’ll help the shidduch crisis- the torah also talks about being b’saddeh and marrying her. Think we should give that a try too?January 28, 2012 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #984114ED IT ORParticipant
hey core is back,
I think I shouldn’t comment what I want too as I can be bothered reading what was written over the last 3 pages!January 29, 2012 2:58 am at 2:58 am #984115WIYMember
“Why woud the satan decide shidduchim? He dosnt seem to be doing a good job at solving the crisis??”
Allow me to explain. The way I understand it the satan wants Jewish people staying single. Getting married is the worst thing for him. That would bring more Yiddishe neshamos being born into the world into frum families which would be educated like their parents to serve Hashem and do mitvos. His job is to get people to avoid doing mitzvos at all costs. Or when he cant accomplish that, to get people to do as few mitzvos as possible or to do mitzvos in an unenthusiastic way…January 29, 2012 5:14 am at 5:14 am #984116Loyal JewMember
The problem is deeper than boys taavos. If a family with teenage girls allows boys to eat with them on Shabbos, it will hurt the girls shidduch chances r”l. That should end the disussion.January 29, 2012 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #984117
WIY- see my last post.what you see as being a mitzvah done in a way too fool the satan could just as easily being the satan fooling you. thats when the sage advice of someone who knows him better then you , ie. a rov, should be asked. dont make cheshbonos that fool you.February 29, 2012 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #984118
Who has stronger Tayvos? boys or girls?? is the problem altz boys or the girls??February 29, 2012 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #984119far eastMember
@loyal jew- mayb in your circles but not in mine
@coreytothecup- complicated issue, most people would say boys but it really just depends on the personFebruary 29, 2012 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #984120more_2Member
The Torah says that a boy has far more tayvos for girls than girls have for guys. That’s why a guy has mitzvos shehasman grama to keep him busy all the time. Man is built to hunt, a woman’s Torah is her tnius…
I think that should answer your question, Corey…February 29, 2012 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #984121squeakParticipant
Loyal Joe, why stop at hurting their shidduch chances? You can take it a step further and say that the girls who are at the same Shabbos table as boys should be assur to marry kohanim.February 29, 2012 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #984123more_2Member
A friend of mine was telling me that they have alter bachurs, single men from time to time, usually they have families over though. She said that awhile ago her husband brought a bachur home that needed a place. Her husband had to ask the bachur to leave in a polite way of course when he started making convo with her daughters!!!
Personally I’m not against guys talking to girls, however talking and conversing are two different things!!
It could have been out of naivety, however I’d say people should train their sons what is nes talk and what is unnecessary talk. For example in the work place, it is vital, but stum at the sbs table is an entirely different story!! I was disappointed when I heard this..March 1, 2012 3:55 am at 3:55 am #984124mddMember
Wolf, it is not the place to discuss those types of Halohos, Squeak just meant to show that the Loyal Jew’s statement is preposterous.March 11, 2012 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #984126
wats wrong with him makin “convo” with your daughters? If its about normal topics ( news,Hock,) wats the problem? if its not for dating purposes why is it so bad?March 12, 2012 6:11 am at 6:11 am #984127longarekelMember
al tarbe sicha im ha’isha (avos 1-5). interesting that the same mishna discusses inviting guests to one’s home. see the end of the mishna for why it’s not good.March 12, 2012 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #984128EnderParticipant
Isn’t there a passuk about this. Bachurim Ve’Gam Besulos, Zekainim em Ne’arim. Why the Ve’Gam between bachurim and besulos? Because they are not supposed to be together.March 13, 2012 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #984129
yup.thats a pshat from R shamshon raphael hirsch ztl I think.March 13, 2012 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #984130RSRHMember
Toi: It certainly is not R. Hirsch’s take on those words. Look at the context of the perek; it is about various creations in the world coming to appreciate and praise the greatness and complexity of how God runs the world. In particular, the perek focuses on how every type of creation should come to understand and appreciate the world from its own unique perspective, based on its own place in creation and role in the world (“Haleluhu kol m’lachav, haleluhu kol tziva’av”). On the words, “bachurim v’gam besulos, zekeinim im nearim,”
R. Hirsch explains that males and females must come to their own unique understanding of the world and God’s role, “independently, from their own knowledge,” because they have different perspective and different tasks to do. Thus, “zekeinim im nearim”: the boys can learn from the men, whose similar roles and greater life experience enables them to teach the younger generation.
The pasuk, taken as part of the perek has nothing to do with social interactions between men and women. At least not according to R. Hirsch.March 13, 2012 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #984131
whoops sorry. But i have seen this as a shat before. i just looked it up in artscroll. gasp. Quote-“Young men and also maidens.” The use of the word vigam,and also, is noteworthy.The Psalmist does not say that young men and women will be together,because such mingling would be immodest.” (Sefer Chassidim)March 13, 2012 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #984132RSRHMember
Toi: I had heard it before too, I was just pretty sure your attribution was mistaken. No intention to take away from the vort itself.March 13, 2012 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #984133
np. I like his pshat, too.March 12, 2013 3:24 am at 3:24 am #984134
Any new updates?March 12, 2013 3:28 am at 3:28 am #984135Torah613TorahParticipant
Every Shabbos, I eat at people’s houses with teenage daughters. I haven’t had the opportunity to eat a meal without anybody’s teenage daughters or sons for years. Let me tell you – the Divrei Torah are amazing (ly boring)!March 12, 2013 3:29 am at 3:29 am #984136truthsharerMember
Most likely the teenage girls are married, or engaged by now, so it’s not an issue.March 12, 2013 3:33 am at 3:33 am #984137wassermanMember
When I was in yeshiva I remember I used to eat out all the time at a couple people’s houses who had girls around my age at the shabbos table. Some a couple years older and some a couple years younger. I had a real taiva for years for one of them and it is hard when you are a single guy to be put in that situation. She would always talk to me throughout the meal. It is a very BAD idea. If you are single you should start dating girls as soon as possible for the purpose of marriage. Don’t even speak or look at other girls when you are single if there is no or very little chance of marriage. It will only end up in serious heartbreak and disappointment. Trust me.March 12, 2013 3:49 am at 3:49 am #984139wassermanMember
Ha no way, mazeltov! That is so nice to hear. I think for most though it only ends up in disappointment, lust and heartbreak because there is so much uncertainty. I can first hand testify to this. For every guy that gets engaged to a girl he randomly met at a shabbos table there are a thousand who don’t. If you are looking to get married, go to a shadchan. If you are looking to spend shabbos with other people and are single, do yourself a favor choose a house where you wont have taiva.October 29, 2013 2:27 am at 2:27 am #984140👑RebYidd23Participant
It’s very nice to talk about eating at houses with teenage daughters, but I don’t know any houses that married and had children, so I don’t know any houses with teenage daughters.October 29, 2013 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #984141sonMember
rebyidd23 I guess you’re not familiar with Rebbi Yossi: “???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???” 🙂October 29, 2013 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #984142rebdonielMember
It’s a bad idea to get involved in those situations (eating with teenage girls and young daughters at the shabbos table).
While shidduchim can be made at the shabbos table, and we speak of setting up our daughters (u’le shadech habanot)in the zemer Mah Yedidut, in many cases, I don’t even think the parents are interested in introducing their daughters to these guys, in which case, these men are merely being teased and their libidos antagonized by what they can’t have.
I spend my shabbos meals with either bachelors, or with older folks. No hirhurim involved there, at all. I agree with Wasserman.
Go to many shadchanim, try out JWed (frumster) or Saw You At Sinai, or even try singles shabbatonim (although I think you’d have more hatzlacha with the websites or shadchanim).October 29, 2013 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #984143Veltz MeshugenerMember
If you make it perverted to talk to the opposite gender, only perverts will talk to the opposite gender.October 29, 2013 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #984144👑RebYidd23Participant
It is sometimes necessary to talk to the opposite gender. For example, if there’s a female cashier who asks me if something is a return or an exchange, not that I make a habit of shopping or returning.October 29, 2013 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #984145rationalfrummieMember
Just make sure there’s no actions or contact between u two that is derech chibah. If you aren’t sure if you can ensure that, don’t go.October 30, 2013 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #984146laytzonay hador omrimParticipant
We should all learn from Avrohom Avinu 2 things:
1- Never turn down an opportunity to perform hachnosas orchim.
2- Upon entering a society of perverts he put his wife in a box.
I personally would follow Avrohom Avinus example and put my teenage daughters in a box every time I have potentially perverted (hey ya never know) teenage boys over for a seuda however, its quite impractical since they can’t serve & clean up while in a box. Therefore I just insist they wear a loose fitting radid or hijab with only their eyes showing (I’d insist that they cover their eyes as well but I’m afraid they may spill the soup on my lap or miss some crumbs while sweeping.) They also wear surgical gloves lest the boys gaze at their etzba k’tana which chazal warn against. (The gloves are also helpful for cleaning up and doing dishes.)
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