Eating Gebroks on Pesach

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  • #1491493

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    lesschumras: Surely you don’t really mean that question l’maaseh.

    Also, who says the circumstances with kitniyos have changed (other than reform Jews)? The Sphardim still wash and check individually, and Ashkenazim still avoid. Nobody says you can pour a bag of rice straight from Wal Mart into a pan and call it a day.

    #1491539

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Geordie, my apologies. I meant Joe

    #1491549

    joe
    Participant

    lesschumras:

    My comment was only lechumera, why a rishon or the Gemara in this case is not a proof for gebrochs is ok to eat, as the matza they ate and we eat are very different.

    #1491592

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Neville, i don’t disagree about rice. But, if a processed , boxed , product has a valid recognized Pesach Israeli hashgacha and happens to contain corn, why wouldn’t an Ashkenazi be able to eat it as there is no concern that it might be mixed with chametz?

    #1491583

    GAON
    Participant

    Joe – there are many chumrahs and tekanos that developed since the Talmud, mainly based on people not being learned or careful etc.
    We don’t bake thick matzos anymore as indicated in the Gemara for that very reason. See O.C. 460:4

    #1491631

    laskern
    Participant

    The geonim forbade kitniyas because they used to make flour from it and it can be mixed up with other flours that can become chometz.

    #1491636

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, which comment are you responding to?

    #1491725

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I think he was responding to your Joe account, not your Joseph account 😉

    #1491727

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Laskern, fine, but
    A. When was the last time you saw peanuts, mustard and beans ground into flour.
    B. Curcumstances surrounding kitniyos have changed. As I stated above, why shouldn’t an Ashkenazi Jew be able to eat kitniyos if it is an ingredient in a processed food certified not to contain chametz? Kitniyos are not chametz.

    #1491733

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Kitniyos are not chametz.

    No, they’re kitniyos. The halacha is that one cannot abandon a full fledged minhag when the original reasoning behind it no longer applies, hence, it is assur for Ashkenazim to consume kitniyos under most circumstances, even today. By violating the minhag, one violates the halacha.

    #1491740

    laskern
    Participant

    Once the Geonim asered it even if the reason dosn’t apply currently, it is still aser. The reason can reoccur e.g. two days yom tov. Also, we are not at the level of the geonim. The Chacham Tzvi wanted to be matir, but he could not.

    #1491741

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    See שערי תשובה who says one who is lenient is a “poretz geder”.

    #1491769

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, a mom and pop Ashkenazi rabbi in Israel isn’t permitted to permit kitniyos any more than he’s permitted to decide that Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom is no longer applicable.

    #1491823

    lesschumras
    Participant

    DY, Joseph, it’s amazing that you can say , with a straight face, that even though the reason is gone, we’re halachicly obliged to follow senseless minhagim. So, Rav Akiva Eger held that smoking is good for your health. How ,then, can more recent poskim hold that it’s assur? Ah, you’ll tell me that we know more now, circumstances changed. Rabbonim allow chalav stam in the US , despite a long established minhag/Halacha because circumstances in the US were different.

    #1491849

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is not I who called it senseless, it is you.

    It it is not I who says we must still follow the minhag, it is the acharonim, as I posted above (Maharil quoted by Shaarei Teshuvah).

    Smoking and cholov stam are horribly inapt analogies. If you would like me to explain why, I can, but I think you can figure it out for yourself.

    Where’s Phil to decry “fake halachah”? Or is it okay as long as it’s not Joseph?

    #1491856

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Lesschumras,
    Let’s call a spade a spade!! You can’t just change a halocho that people keep and all poskim hold of, just because YOU THINK that it doesn’t apply anymore. Where does that stop??? There are secular people who have told me that they eat pork and seafood, because hygiene is much better now than in the days of chazal, afra lepumayhu. That’s where the argument you are making can lead to.

    #1491864

    GAON
    Participant

    “Gaon, a mom and pop Ashkenazi rabbi in Israel isn’t permitted to permit kitniyos”

    Agreed – however he has others with him, also it is absolutely not relevant to Chu”L as he claims in Israel they really never accepted the minhag in the first place. It only spread out via the Chu”L who came at a later time..

    #1491886

    golfer
    Participant

    Why are we debating the validity of our own and other people’s Minhagim?
    “Who are we to place our heads between giant mountains lest our skulls be crushed?”
    Those are not my own words and the original connection is not to Minhagei Pesach but I feel they belong here.
    Wishing all a beautiful Yom Tov!

    (For anyone curious, those whose minhag it is not to eat Mazah shruya and eat it on Achron shel Pesach, do cook their kneidlach on Erev Shabbos / Shvi’i shel Pesach as it comes out this year -of course provided they made an Eruv Tavshilin. This statement, as noted, was for those who are curious, not for those who need to know lema’aseh what to do, in which case my words hold no authority.)

    #1491905

    laskern
    Participant

    On yom tov, many things were forbidden because it is not שוה לכל נפש most people don’t do it. What if that has changed e,g, showering?

    #1491917

    GAON
    Participant

    “So, Rav Akiva Eger held that smoking is good for your health. How ,then, can more recent poskim hold that it’s assur? ”

    Asides that the very comparison is A”H (as pointed out by DY). The very issue about smoking on its own is really misquoted and can still be relevant.

    For starters you got the wrong Achron, it is the Pnei Yehoshua NOT Rav Akiva Eiger. (at least look up your sources before making a bold statement)
    He states it in regards permitting it on YT, as it has to be Shava le’Chol Nefesh to consider as Ochel Nefesh, and many people do not smoke etc. so he simply says being that it helps for digestive reasons it is permitted.

    He is simply saying it based on how it was accepted at the time and how it was utilized. And BTW one can still make that very argument nowadays.

    #1491921

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, you did not answer my question above?

    #1491919

    Milhouse
    Participant

    lesschumra, if the kitniyos are less than half of the ingredients in the final product, and it has a reliable hechsher that it has no chometz, you <i>can</i> eat it. Kitniyos is botel berov. You can’t make such a product lechatchila, or give your hechsher to it, but once it’s been made and is botel you can eat it gezunterheit.

    The same applies if you’re eating in a Sefardi house on Pesach. If they serve a dish of rice and meat cooked together, you can’t eat the rice but you can eat the meat. And you can certainly eat from their keilim without any qualms.

    #1492000

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    golfer:

    It’s the minhag in the CR passed down for generations that, just before Pesach, we all come together and critique each other’s minhagim. I’m not sure if this minhag CR is still relevant, but we don’t want to be mevatel a minhag.

    #1491941

    Phil
    Participant

    less,

    You are correct, kitniyos themselves are not and can’t ever become chametz; therefore, as just one example, they don’t have to be destroyed or sold before Pesach. Hundred of years ago, the Poskim of were quite aware of this fact but (aside from the Beis Yosef) enacted that neither kitniyos nor their derivatives may be consumed on Pesach. This is because kitniyos are generally grown, harvested, stored or processed in proximity with the five grains and therefore may become contaminated with them. In addition, their flours can resemble that of the five grains and might therefore be confused with them. Once this restriction was adopted, an Ashkenazic Jew may not opt out of it, despite any conjecture that the circumstances surrounding kitniyos have changed, which they haven’t.

    #1492012

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I’ll try one more time. I’m not questioning kitniyos that is sold loose and grows near chametz.
    What noone has answered is:
    1. Kitniyos contained in a box of processed food that has reliable hashgacha that it contains no chametz. Why is that assur
    2. Are peanuts , beans or mustard seeds ground into flour or grown near chametz? If not, why are they kitniyos?

    #1492017

    golfer
    Participant

    NevilleCB:

    Thank you for explaining!
    Far be it from me to suggest being mevatel an established minhag.
    Minhag CR or not though, some statements here, such as the one directly under yours from someone whose screen name would like to indicate that he’s far more learned than is obviously apparent, do not sit well with me. At all.

    #1492021

    laskern
    Participant

    About kitniyas see the Mordechai תקפח 588 and RMA 453 in the beginning of the siman.

    #1492077

    Phil
    Participant

    less,

    1. Kitniyos contained in a box of processed food that has reliable hashgacha that it contains no chametz. Why is that assur?
    For the same reason that Ashkenazim do not triple-check and eat rice on Pesach. The Poskim chose to restrict consumption of these foods and their derivatives, rather than permit them to be consumed with careful checking. Aside from the Beis Yosef, whom Sefardim rely upon.

    2. Are peanuts , beans or mustard seeds ground into flour or grown near chametz? If not, why are they kitniyos?
    They most certainly were and in many cases still are. In addition to these two reasons, the Ba’al HaTanya added that kitniyos, when cooked, is very similar in appearance to the five grains when cooked. Which is a reason why corn is considered to be kitniyos, yet according to the overwhelming majority of opinions, potatoes are not.

    #1492028

    laskern
    Participant

    Look at the Mordechai 588 mentioned above they asert everything called legume.

    #1492044

    golfer
    Participant

    Back again.
    Apologies to the person whose post is now directly under the one from Neville that I was responding to.
    The post that made me so uncomfortable seems to have disappeared. (deleted by mods? the poster himself?)
    I don’t wish to comment on any other posts here.
    Wishing all of you a wonderful Pesach!

    #1492097

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Joe, I do not seek nor do I need your forgiveness.

    You have no idea why we eat kitniyot, nor is it any of your business. I’m not in the habit of explaining myself to anonymous people on the internet. Just rest assured that we did not take this step by ourselves; I asked a shyla to our Rav, who asked his Rav, who asked his Rosh Yeshiva. The process itself took over a year before we received an answer.

    #1492100

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Golfer, I’ve written earlier on this thread that that is not the minhag for all people who refrain from gebrokts. Some are stricter than others. E.g. some will put mayonnaise on matza but many don’t. My cousins don’t let any matza get wet before acharon shel pesach at nacht. There is no rule for ALL.

    #1492111

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I learned today in my Gemara brachos shout where it talks about cooking matzah that it still it considered matzah

    You see at the time of the Gemara they gebrokted

    #1492118

    Joseph
    Participant

    takah, someone once told me a similar explanation on how he began to eat chicken and cheese sandwiches.

    #1492230

    yudel
    Participant
      Reb yaakov told me that the hand matza bakeries in general do not near the dough very well and if you cut the dough and see white specks that’s flour and you can’t buk those matzas. See this week’s Yates page 149 for the full matzas article.
    #1492228

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    🙄

    #1492229

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    The whole reason of non gebrokting is because the matzah wasn’t baked as much. That reason was more probable in the time of the Gemara

    #1492234

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That reason was more probable in the time of the Gemara

    You are making an assumption. Where do you get that from?

    #1492235

    yudel
    Participant

    Reb Yaakov Kamentzky, Z”L told me that the the hand matzah bakeries in general do not knead the dough very well. Therefore the white specks one could see when cutting open the matza dough prior to rolling out is raw flour. He said further a dough that has white speks one may not gebrukts even if his minhag is to eat gebructs.

    See a fuller article on the subject of hand matzas in this weeks Yated on pages 149-150.

    #1492239

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant


    #1492245

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Dy

    Are you saying it was less probable? Even if it was the same we see they weren’t concerned about it then

    #1492248

    yudel
    Participant

    Pupa Tzeilim bakery does their finning with the metal bars, therefore there is less of a chance of white specks of raw flour. Most other bakeries checked have the white speck raw flour problem.

    #1719434

    laskern
    Participant

    If miching is because of gebroks, it doesn’t matter because I am an Oberlander and eat gebroks the whole pesach.

    #1719502

    Joseph
    Participant

    Can one be mattir neder to start keeping not eating gebrochts (or stop keeping refraining from gebrochts)?

    #1719522

    Joseph, yes, common when someone is a choleh and can only eat soaked matza, he is mattir neder.

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