Eating Gebroks on Pesach

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Eating Gebroks on Pesach

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 155 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1956338
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, cholent without beans is a much bigger issue than soup without a knaidel.

    The bottom line is that if your minhag is to not eat something, you can’t just eat it anyhow because you want to, and use simchas Yom Tov as an excuse.

    #1956346
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It is also unhealthy. Having pure egg noodles in the soup does not help to fight cholesterol.

    #1956352
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    DY, kitniyas for the askanezim is an issur even on the last day whereas gebroks is mutar in order to show according to the Rav Chidah that it is only a chumra. A potato cholent is very good.

    #1956356
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    שערי תשובה סימן תס ס’ק י
    וממה דכתיבנא מבואר דבין המחמירין ובין המקילין אלו ואלו עושים כוונים לשמים אילו דעתם לפרוש משימצא דשימצא חימצא ובר חימצא בכדי להזהר מחמץ כל שהוא בכל חומר האפשר, ואלו משום מניעת שמחת יום טוב שלא ערב להם לחם מצה חריבה ובפרט למי
    שקשה לו הלעיסה ויש שמחמירין ביותר שאין אוכלים מצה כלל אחר ליל הראשון רק אוכלים למעדנים מיני תבשילין והרבה נמנעים
    oלעשות כן משום שמחת יום טוב כי פתא סעדא דלבא ועל אילו ועל אילו שלבם לשמים קורא אני ועמך כולם צדיקי

    #1956441
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is also unhealthy. Having pure egg noodles in the soup does not help to fight cholesterol.

    Nah, eggs are fine. If you’re worried about cholesterol, stay away from unhealthy fats and refined sugar and flour. Including the refined flour found in some matza balls.

    Edit: to be fair, Pesach lukshen has potato starch, which I can’t imagine is too healthy.

    #1956442
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, kitniyas for the askanezim is an issur even on the last day whereas gebroks is mutar

    So? It’s still assur to go against your minhag

    #1956443
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    A potato cholent is very good

    It’s a good stew. It’s not cholent.

    #1956444
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant


    שערי תשובה סימן תס ס’ק י
    וממה דכתיבנא מבואר דבין המחמירין ובין המקילין אלו ואלו עושים כוונים לשמים אילו דעתם לפרוש משימצא דשימצא חימצא ובר חימצא בכדי להזהר מחמץ כל שהוא בכל חומר האפשר, ואלו משום מניעת שמחת יום טוב שלא ערב להם לחם מצה חריבה ובפרט למי
    שקשה לו הלעיסה ויש שמחמירין ביותר שאין אוכלים מצה כלל אחר ליל הראשון רק אוכלים למעדנים מיני תבשילין והרבה נמנעים
    oלעשות כן משום שמחת יום טוב כי פתא סעדא דלבא ועל אילו ועל אילו שלבם לשמים קורא אני ועמך כולם צדיקי

    Okay, but once it’s your family minhag, you can’t decide to be machmir on simchas Yom Tov at the expense of the zehirus not to eat gebrokts.

    #1956464
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Eating or not eating gebroks says the Sharei Teshuva ועמך כולם צדיקים, they are both rightous, when done for the right reason.

    #1956509
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Are you saying it’s okay for someone whose family minhag is to not eat gebrokts to break the minhag and eat knaidlach?

    #1956559
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chavas Yair 126 questions, whether children must follow the chumras of the father and he says no but the question is if this is more than that. Many have the custom not to eat gebroks, so it is a Jewish minhag. According to the Sharei Teshuva above, if they truly want to satisfy simchas yom tov feeling that they miss the real enjoyment for yom tov, I would say that they can be matir neder and change. It is recommended to ask your LOR. People put in on Tefilin on Chal Hamoad tend to eat gebroks. This does not apply to kitniyas, even though the Chacham Tzvi was saying that if he had the ability, he would have been matir questioning that it might bring to making more matzas and the relaxation of the protection against chametz.

    #1956629
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Scenario: you’re at your doctor and he’s just given you your eighth refill for a powerful antibiotic. You worriedly ask, how sick am I?
    He responds that you’re healthy, the infection is long gone. So, you ask, why the refills. He replies that even though the original reason for the antibiotic no longer applies, it’s now become your minhag and you have to keep taking it.

    #1956648
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Anonymous Jew, Tosfas in the beginning of Betza (6,1) questions this case if a chashosha is followed and the reason is gone whether to follow it further but sometimes like Yom Tov Sheni the reason can reoccur but over here, for those who followed it, tbe reason is still around. Overuse of an antibiotic is a problem by becoming immune to it.

    #1956663
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, you picked a poor example. We’ve had a calendar for approximately 1700 years so the reason is extremely unlikely, if not impossible. to reoccur.
    I also wonder how Chassidim were able to abandon centuries of minhagim, to the point of even changing nusach and th ed definition of zman tefilah. I’ve heard the reasons but all it means is that you can’t change/abandon minhag except when you want to.

    #1956681
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It can reoccur that a wicked ruler forbids to practice yom tov, so tbe calculation for the molad will be forgotten.

    #1956682
    ujm
    Participant

    AJ: what’s it have to do with chasidim? The Arizal introduced those aspects long before chasidus.

    #1956685

    AJ – interesting note. Indeed, seems like the groups that abruptly changed minhagim (to be fair – mostly towards Jewish minhagim from other groups), are now the most militant in holding to them …Could one use this as a reason to return to previous minhagim? On one hand, the new minhag is a multi-generation neder. On the other hand, someone might say that he is shocked to discover that his great-grand-father was a Litvak and, were his ancestors more aware of this fact and how the matzo balls taste, they would surely have eaten it!

    PS The slippery part of this logic is that Chassidim might have tasted matzo balls on the 8th day, but one can argue that they lost the art or that matzo balls taste special on the first day of Pesach

    #1956787
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Um, I know about the Arizal changing the minhagim. But all the people who subsequently became Chassidim changed their minhagim and nusach to do so. Did they all do ateras nedarim? Ask their fathers permission? My point about the chassidim is that they are an example of when minhagim were subject to change

    #1956791
    ujm
    Participant

    AJ: The Nusach was changed/modified by the Arizal. The Arizal, as you know, was long before Chasidus started. It seems to me that your taaina/question should be against the Arizal and his students rather than the chasidim.

    #1956835

    Don’t make Arizal responsible for Jews in Ukraine or Belorussia changing their minhagim. They made their own decisions.

    #1956842
    ujm
    Participant

    How is the Arizal changing Minhagim any different than others who follow the Arizal in doing the same as he?

    #1956849
    ujm
    Participant

    The Arizal was Ashkenazi. He davened in an Ashkenazic Shul in Tzefas at key times of the Jewish year, such as the ימים נוראים and רגלים, as well as at other times, and darshened there as well.

    He is referred to over and over again, by his contemporaries, as the אשכנזי רבי יצחק. The moniker אר”י, by which he is known, stands for אשכנזי רבי יצחק.

    #1957007

    They would not call him אשכנזי for no reason! you would not be called a “New Yorker”, if everyone around you were New Yorkers …. But he definitely was not a Litvak or a Galitzianer!

    #1957042
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Arizal communicated with the Marshal both having the name Luria indicating that he is not from his family but Rav Chidah in Shem Hagdolim says that he was from his family indicating that he is also an ashkenaz whose rebbi was the Shutah Mekubetzes, Rebbi Betzalel Ashkenazi. The Chasam Sofer says that he revealed the kevonas in the sefard tefila as he was a sefaredi and he if would have been an ashkenazi, he would have done the same to the ashkanazic tefila.

    #1957087
    ujm
    Participant

    What’s the Arizal and his disciples justification for changing from Nusach Ashkenaz to Nusach Ari/Sefard?

    #1957166
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Thw Magen Avraham 68, says not to change minhagim in teflos as every shevat has its own gateway but according to the Divrei Chaim, sefard tefila is non denominational good for any shevat. The Pri Megadim says tbere not to switch one type of tefila to another but the Divrei Chaim says sefard not to ashkenaz but ashkenaz can be switched to sefard.

    #1957172
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, if I recall you said you’re a Viener or Matersdorfer. I presume as such you daven Nusach Ashkenaz, as they do. Although I understand that Vien may have switched from Ashkenaz to Sefard over the last 15 years or so.

    #1957175
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Divrei Chaim above is Shut O’CH (2,8). He says if some does not know his soul’s roots, what shevat he comes from, should daven sefard.

    #1957180

    >> Divrei Chaim says sefard not to ashkenaz

    I presume he means Chasidic nusach, not nusach Sefardim. I think we need to recognize this as it is – innovations, not supported by previous sources. It may or may not be obvious to the reader when sources are quoted in a line without times. MA (17th cent), Pri Megadim (18th), Diveri Chaim (19th).

    Also, according to the summary of the letter in YWN a couple of years ago, Divrei Chaim seems to recommend the practice (a) for refined people, (b) trusting the gedolim of the generation
    >> anyone whose soul is refined can rely on the leaders of the generation,

    Interesting, if we accept that Chasam Sofer was a major innovator of the notion of Daas Torah, then here Divrei Chaim is using DT to overturn Chasam Soifer stand on Tefilah (“with all due respect”, I mean Divrei Chaim to Chasam Soifer). “Refined souls” footnote seem to be forgotten also, as now it is nushach recommended to the whole community. Interestingly, I don’t think Sefardim proper, at least in our times. think that it is good for Ashkenazim to switch Nusach the way (some) Chasidim do.

    #1957183
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Look at the Chasam Sofer Shut O’CH 16-17,197, Meharam Shik Shut O’CH 43, Divrei Chaim above Shut O’CH (2,8) and Minachas Elozor Shut (1,11).

    #1957185
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ: It isn’t Chasidish Nusach as the Arizal, who formulated the Nusach, wasn’t Chasidish.

    It is interesting that you refer to the Arizal as an unsupported innovater, nevertheless the Arizal is universally accepted across the Jewish spectrum as valid.

    The Chasam Sofer did not innovate Daas Torah. Daas Torah is another expression of Emunas Chachamim. And, presumably, you know the source for Emunas Chachamim.

    #1957191
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I follow the Chasam Sofer who says ashkenaz has the same kevonas but because the Arizal was a sefardi (argued above), he revealed the hidden secrets of the sefard davenen. I put on tefilin on chol hamoad (not Rabbenu Taam), eat gebroks, say maarovis, make yom kippur katan and put on a kittel on Rosh Hashanah. I take red radishes for karpas.

    #1957196

    ujm >> presumably, you know the source for Emunas Chachamim.

    In a Baraita in a list after Derech Eretz and a good heart? I would refer you to 2007 Essay by R Nachum Rabinowitch “What is “Emunat Ḥakhamim” where he defines Emunas Chachamim to include a very respectful attitude towards halakhic rulings, and a requirement to understand the reasoning behind them, as the individual himself remains responsible for his action (more so in divrei reshut, if I understand him correctly). Many people use Daas Torah somewhat differently. I am not learned enough to know whether Chasam Sofer meant that.

    It is also not my intention to analyze Arizal, I’m busy understanding pshat to be so presumptuous to weigh on kabbalah. I thought you asked that question. Unless there are tw2o ujms here (maybe a sitra aherah?).

    #1957295
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I would say that eminas chachomim originates from lo susur. Even if they tell you on the right left and vice verss as Yosef believed Yaakov Avinu did by the placement of his hands on his children. The Chasam Sofer considers Yitzchak Avinu’s test of the akedah greater than Avrohom Avinu’s as he was not directly commanded by Hashem as Avrohom Avinu was but only heared it from him.

    #1957604
    follick2
    Participant

    According to the Rebbe, when the 8th day of Pesach is on Shabbos, knaidlach should be made (but not eaten) on the 7th day in preparation. So Lubavitchers do so.

    #1957617
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “say maarovis,”

    Oy! what about simchos Yom tov???

    #1957783
    charliehall
    Participant

    “you need to get up the entire Elul for Selichot”

    In the minhag of the Spanish and Portuguese synagogues, which is what we all really should be folliowing here in America because they were the only congregations for over 140 years, they recite Selichot 2x/day for all of Elul.

    #1957804

    >> knaidlach should be made (but not eaten) on the 7th day in preparation.

    this is amazing… this seem to admit that you are really ready to eat it on the 7th day, otherwise you would not be able to cook it?! then, by induction, you could cook it on the 6th day to prepare for the 7th, etc.

    #1961324
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ubi, about marovis see O’CH 489 MB s’k 1. On shabbos we don’t say it because people don’t know it by heart and they might have to light a candle.

    #1961504
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Tosfas in the beginning of Mesechtes Barochos mentions marovis for sefira, ohr yom henef is consdered a extended gaula.

    #2068737
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    This year will be the problem for those who only eat gebrokts the last day which is on shabbos, when will it be made?

    #2068743

    RebE, go eat with a friend who does not hold by gebrochts. Incidentally, I found a shocking harsh teshuva by R Twersky to a question by a Rav’s daughter married to Rav’s student: Rav eats gebrochts, SIL does not. The daughter is asking whether she fulfil kavod of parents and go for Pesach and eat at a separate table. R Twersky says – very inappropriate to create a machloket at the Pesach that is supposed to bring family together eating the same karban! And the student (forget about FIL!) coming to his teacher’s table should surely follow teacher’s minhag (and he brings solid chasidishe sources for that.

    #2068823
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ: Sorry, can’t mish.

    #2068843
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Nahum Rabinowitz believed in: ordaining women and abolishing even the small amount of laws that the state of Israel has regarding mitzvah observance, such as the law of selling chometz, kashrus and shabbos related laws. He wishes for there to be separation of church and state, because of some philosophical garbled nonsense about the state of israel being the domain of the “body” and the batei din being the “soul”.

    In this, his judaism is more depraved than the mainstream religious zionists, who wish for israel to be a theocratic halachik state. His opinions are as worthwhile as a professor in JTS.

    #2068845
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “This year will be the problem for those who only eat gebrokts the last day which is on shabbos, when will it be made?”

    Not a problem, we will do the same thing we did 2019, 2018, 2015, 2012
    We will make them on Friday, don’t forget an eruv Tavshailin*

    (* No reason to say Hoil doesnt apply, many eat Gebrokts on shevii shel PEsach (as can be seen in this thread) kids can eat it, choleh shein bo sakana etc )

    #2068844
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    His “views” can be seen in “the Political Theology of Rabbi Nachum Eliezer Rabinovitch, The Torah u-Madda Journal 18 (2021), 1-32. by Rami Schwartz”

    Afra lepumei

    #2068892

    Avira, thanks for an interesting reference and thanks for taking a year to ponder on my post, really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your research. Apologize for not taking a year to reply:
    I don’t see the described approach of R Rabinovitch as controversial theoretically – respecting democratic process and pondering the power of kings, Lockean approach. Most of us who live outside of EY and, l’havdil, Russia and Persia, have no problem with co-existing with a democracy. I would think that you as non-Zionist, would appreciate his approach that tries to separate integrity of halakha from political Zionism, as often seen by R Kook’s followers. I personally also sympathize with the described empirical approach to halakha – I agree that many takonot are based on the desired societal effect (including the rule that the takanah is rescinded if society rejects it in the first year). This is not a surprise for me, as my initial respect to the Rav comes from reading his work on halakha and statistics that I found very well researched from the sttistical point of view.

    I see, though, how his theoretical approach is triggering in the practical Israeli context in terms of supporting kashrus and giyur outside of Rabanut. So, I can easily see how one can disagree with his practical positions, but nothing to question his limud. I hope you admit that someone could be a Talmid Chacham without following same shitot as a particular YWN poster.

    His support for some role of women in some roles is mentioned in one line, so there is nothing to comment on. The line may partially be based on article author views and clearly refers to limited support on these.

    One thought on his approach to church/state (again, we are reading a secondary source, it would be proper to discuss a primary source to really understand his approach): note that non-Jews world made this experiment for last several centuries and the result is that First Amendment USA has more religious people than Europe that forced people to pray and register by the community. I am not saying this should directly translate to us, but it is an empirical food for thought. Jews had this argument between Litvakim and Rov Chasidim supporting Napoleon and Alter Rebbe who supported the Czar. It seems that Chabad had merit in a short-term with Jews staying under Czar and even being more religious than in West Europe, but in longer-term Chabad shluchim are now saving Yidden from the Russian army.

    #2068909
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    So much less stressful to be debating gebrokts versus mask and vaccine mandates. As if its not already hard enough to make sedorim for a large extended family, having to prepare separate gebrokts/non-gebrokts meals for guests seems a bit over the top and warrants consideration of just adhering to the minhag of the hosts.

    #2068968

    Gadol, looked up what R Twersky is saying:
    he suggests either side accomodate if possible, for example, skip gebrochts at a particular meal. Then he calls out sitting at separate table as a problem. Korban Pesach, the first mitzva was to be a family one. “For the family to be separated by a chumrah .. seems to me to be defeating the spirit of Pesach”.

    And the story was about 2 Sanz chasidim at Chasam Sofer’s seder. When they came back, Sanzer said that the one who ate gebrochts got Olam Haba, and the frummer one should stand near him in davening while the Rebbe will try to get him forgiveness for trying to be frummer than the gadol hador.

    #2068983
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    AAQ:….and perhaps we might extrapolate from this wonderful story on the imperative of kavod hatorah on something as seemingly insignificant as kneidlach that there might not always be a sachar for being the smartest (or frummest) guy in the room.

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 155 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.