September 11, 2019 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1785691
This seems to be against the Maharam Shik O’CH 70 as referenced by the Aim Habonim Samecha Page 158 that if you leave the poshim be elected they will do what they want to do without being able to stop them.September 11, 2019 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1785956
What’s news here? They’ve been against it since 1948. Just like Brisk.
The book you mentioned isn’t anything serious or halachic.September 11, 2019 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1785976
The Sefer is אם הבנים שמחה and it is very serious, it was written by a huge Talmud chacham during the holocaust. It is a lot more serious than the Va-Yoel Moshe.September 11, 2019 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1785981
Joseph, the Mahram Shik ztz’l brings it from his rebbi the Chasam Sofer. A savora is min Hatorah, We,must question the savora without a proper answer (upfregen). Rav Teichtal ztz’l was considered a gadol died ak”h 1944 Hy”d.
שו”ת מהר”ם שיק אורח חיים סימן ע
אבל אני קורא דברי חכז”ל בבא בתרא סוף פרק חזקת הבתים דף ס’ ע”ב, מיום שחרב בית המקדש דין הוא שנגזור על עצמינו שלא לאכול בשר וכו’, אלא שאין גוזרין על הציבור אלא אם כן רוב הציבור יכולין לעמוד וכו’. ושוב אמרו, דין הוא שנגזור על עצמינו שלא לישא אשה ולהוליד בנים, ונמצא זרעו של אברהם אבינו כלה מאליו, אלא הנח להם לישראל וכו’. ולשון זרעו של אברהם אבינו כלה הוא תמוה.
וביאר מרן הגאון בעל חתם סופר זצ”ל על פי מדרש פרשת שמות [שמו”ר א’ י”ג] כשגזר פרעה אותו גזירה עמד עמרם וגירש אשתו, עמדו כל הצדיקים וגרשו את נשותיהם, אמרה לו מרים גזרתך קשה משל פרעה, שפרעה גזר רק על הזכרים וכו’. ואמר מרן זצ”ל, דהנה הקדוש ברוך הוא כרת ברית עם אבותינו לקיים זרעם אחריהם ולתת להם נחלת ארץ ישראל. והנה, אם ישראל יגזרו על עצמן שלא להוליד בנים, ודור הולך ואין דור אחר בא, ויש לחוש שח”ו יכלה זרעו של אברהם אבינו, יהיה השי”ת מוכרח להושיע ישראל ולהשיב בנים לגבולם. אלא שכל זה אם כל הקהל יעשו כן, אבל אם רק הצדיקים והכשרים יעשו כן והרשעים ישאו להם נשים, אם כן שוב אין הקדוש ברוך הוא מוכרח, שהרי גם הרשעים זרע אברהם. ואם כן רק זרע הצדיקים יכלו ויתמו וזרע הרשעים ישארו ויעמדו, ואז יהיה רע בכפליים. וזו כוונת הגמרא דין הוא שנגזור על עצמינו שלא לישא וכו’ ואם כן זרעו של אברהם אבינו כלה, וזה אי אפשר, ויהיה הקדוש ברוך הוא מוכרח להושיע לנו, אלא הנח וכו’, משום דהפושעים והקלים לא ישמעו לנו וישאר זרע ישראל מהם. וזה היה כוונת עמרם כשגירש את אשתו, כדי שכולם יגרשו וכנ”ל וממילא יהיה גאולה לישראל, אמנם רק הצדיקים גירשו ושאר דלות העם קיימו נשותיהם, לזה אמרה גזרתך קשה משל פרעה, שאדרבה גזרתך קשה כיון שרק הצדיקים גירשו נשותיהם ויתכלה ח”ו זרע צדיקים, ורשעים יתרבו, ולכך צעקה ואמרה גזרתך קשה משל פרעה, ודפח”ח.September 11, 2019 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1785986
This logic was the reason, I heard in the first place, that the religious decided to join the Knesses. If the religious will not join, the non-religious will be able to do what they want.September 12, 2019 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1786000
That’s been their policy for almost 100 years (before then, there were no elections). No hiddush.September 12, 2019 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1786213
Would someone explain to me how do they ensure that the chareidim don’t get drafted and how do they protect against other laws that are against the Torah if the religious don’t partake in the process?September 12, 2019 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1786226
Reb Eliezer: 1. Civil disobedience. 2. Appeals to international human rights law. 3. Once you decide that all zionists are inherently opposed to Torah (not just those who claim to be anti-Torah, but even those who claim they are Torah observant), it is largely irrelevant to participate in Israeli elections since the zionists have a solid lock on the electoral system, and by participating in the elections it allows the zionists to claim that they to represent the hareidim (i.e. the anti-zionist hareidim). Note that the Arabs have a similar problem, and note how the zionists point to Palestinian participation in the kenesset as proof of Arab support for the medinah.September 12, 2019 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1786228
vayoel mosheh is very much serious,written by the satmar rav zatzal who was a massive gadolSeptember 12, 2019 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1786245
Eliezer>>>in previous threads on related themes, this apparent contradiction was explained by some in simple terms…” the Ebeshter will assure that everything works out for us if we continue to live in accordance with his torah, even if we refuse to participate in the electoral process and governance of the medinah…”
The interesting part is that some of these groups choose to live peacefully but outside the political process and essentially ignore the government while others seek every opportunity to protest and disrupt the governmentSeptember 12, 2019 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1786392
The reasoning is simple, in the past ALL frum gedolim including bobov viznitz satmar ger belz chabad etc and the litvishe gedolim including the chofetz chaim etc, after the medina was founded there was a split regarding how to deal with The issue, the satmar rebbe explained that its ossur to go with apkiorsim while the other gedolim reasoned that want to try and save what they can, however when so call “frum” magazines can put netanyau sr”y on there cover with no shame and claim that anti zionism is only a satmar shittahSeptember 12, 2019 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1786393
Another point all the issues are caused by participating with the zionists, look at the israeli arabs most dont vote and arent drafted but can get full benefits because the state looks at them as a enemy, if the state looked at frum jews as a enemy then you wouldnt have a draft problem, go to there memorials and claim your protecting the state with your learning and they have a truthful claim ״if you benefit from us serve in our army”September 12, 2019 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1786397
Moderator: Reply1786213 is under my replies but not over here under the topic.September 13, 2019 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #1786473
1. Appealing to international bodies against Israel is a violation of several serious prohibitions.
2. If their young men have such great fighting spirit they should be in combat units.
3. Rav Menahem Kasher refuted the SR’s arguments in “HaTekufa HaGedola”. If they do not believe in the state their citizenships should be revoked. If their kids get caught with drugs in foreign airports they should not run crying to the embassy.September 13, 2019 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1786489
Aim HaBanim Semecha doesn’t contain anything new. It’s a collection of all the old Zionist arguments that have long been disproven. The truth is, his position stood no chance to begin with, because even though R. Teichtel was a talmid chacham, he was opposing the collective Torah knowledge of the greatest Torah giants, including but not limited to Rav Chaim Brisker, Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh, The Chofetz Chaim, the Rogachover Gaon, The Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab), the Belzer Rebbe (R. Yisachar Dov), the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, all who were opposed to Zionism and the creation of a State. So he was really quite outgunned from the start. The most extensive work on this topic is of course the Satmar Rav’s Vayoel Moshe, which disproves just about every Zionist “proof” ever conceived.
Aim HaBanim Semecha is not even taken seriously outside of Zionist circles, because it is mostly emotional sermons and discourses (droshos), rather than a serious Halachic analysis. It’s an emotional outcry in response to the holocaust (he dates the introduction Parshas Tetzaveh 1943) and its clear that he was talking out of desperation for finding a safe haven for Jews, which many felt Eretz Yisroel would be. He confuses his personal feelings with Halachic methodology, Rebbishe vertlach with Halachic rulings, and so is not at all compelling.
Example: On page 147 he addresses a powerful statement in Ahavas Yonason by R. Yonason Eyebuschitz ZT”L that it is absolutely prohibited for Jews to take over Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, even if all the nations want them to, which is kind of a problem for a religious Zionist like R. Teichtel. This is his response: “You should understand that the words of Rav Yonason only apply when there is no sign from heaven that we should all abandon the lands of Chutz Laaretz, meaning, when Jews can live peacefully outside of Eretz Yisroel … but not nowadays, when the words of the prophet came true, [that Jews will be hunted down by goyim]. So when the nations give us permission to return to our land, can there be any doubt that it is the will of Hashem that we return to Eretz Yisroel? I am certain, that if Rav Yonason Eyebushitz was living with us today and saw the terrible golus that we endure, he himself would say to us: ‘Brother Jews! The time has come for you to go to Eretz Yisroel, for this is the will of Hashem, for it is not coincidence what has happened to us in Golus, but rather it is the finger of G-d pointing to us to rise from golus…”
Ok. Now, of course, even in the days of Rav Yonason (about 250 years ago) Jews were persecuted, and all throughout Golus they were, too. Yet R. Teichtel decided that he knows how to quantify the measure of suffering that Jews are expected to tolerate in Golus, and what on the other hand is a “sign from Hashem” for them to return. He decided that he can read Hashem’s signs and that this, for sure, is what our suffering means. Where did he get this scale? Nowhere. He decided it on his own. He and only he decided that this “sign from Hashem” tells us that the Golus is over.
Well, he can read whatever he wants into “signs from Hashem,” but this “sign from Hashem” has no Rashi or Tosfos to tell us how to interpret it. Nor did Hashem tell him how to read history, nor does he have any sources that his is the proper reading. Since when do we pasken sheailos based on personal feelings? It’s a nice sermon, but Halachicly it means nothing. Yet to him, not only is it Halachicly binding on everyone, but it “there is no longer any room for doubt”.
And it gets much, much, worse. This attitude that “everyone has to interpret the world the way I do” often passes the line into the realm of the absurd. On page 98 he deals with the Minchas Elozor, who was a vehement opponent of Zionism. He was vehemently critical in general, actually, when it came to protecting the Torah. And nobody was beyond his scrutiny. Here are some quotes:
“ ’Whoever becomes an leader in this world becomes evil in the next world’ (Rambam, Tur). The world explains this to refer to the lay leaders, like presidents of congregations, which in many congregations this is true. But if we’re going to talk about our generation and our days, it can be referring to the Rabbonim as well, unfortunately …” – Divrei Torah III:47
“ ‘Whevener there are Reshaim in the world, there is suffering in the world. Who are Reshaim? The robbers.’ (Sanhedrin 113b). This is referring to the fake leaders who “rob” the truth form the people, because they act like Tzadikim and act for their own benefit. They prevent the redemption. Hashem should save us from them.” – ibid 58
“There are Rebbes (“admorim”) who are fakers, they make believe they are Tzadikim, are meyached yichudim, and dress like Rebbes or rabbis. This is all the doing of the Satan in order to bring the public (followers) to sin” – ibid V:82
“The reason why Jews in Germany can learn heresy and still remain religious is because they are like the people who are immune to poison because they are used to drinking it and so have so much of it in their system. So too the German Jews, they are soused to the poison of secularism since they are habituated in it from childhood little by little, that this does not hurt them. That is why they are immune to the bad influence of the Mizrachi and the Agudah as well.” – ibid IV:93
“’And you shall love your neighbor like yourself’ – this means, just like there are different parts of you that you care about more – for instance, you care more about heaving your head than your feet – so too we love the Tzadikim more than we do others. The lowest level is those who are like our fingernails, also part of us, but we clip them off and discard them. These people too are like fingernails that need to be separated from the rest of us, and this is for the benefit of Klall Yisroel.” – ibid II:39September 13, 2019 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1786490
Anyway, the following is R. Teichtel’s explanation of why The Minchas Elozor was against “Yishuv HaAretz”. I promise I am not making this up:
First, he tries to establish that whether the redemption will come miraculously or slowly and naturally depends on whether Moshiach’s coming will be because we “deserve it” (“zachah”) – in which case it will be miraculous, or because Hashem sent it to us despite our not deserving it, in which case it will be natural. Then he says, quote:
“And with this we have an open response to the entire objection of our master and rebbi, the holy scholar, the Minchas Elozor ZT”L of Munkatch, regarding being involved with building the land. For I myself was one of his group, and I knew that his entire objection was base don the fact that the redemption is going to come miraculously, not naturally … But his honor remains intact, for he on his high level believed that the entire world is on the high level where they deserve Moshiach, like he was. But the truth is that this last generation, unfortunately, not deserving of Moshiach, and therefore the redemption will come couched in natural methods.” – Aim Habanim Semechah p.98
I promise I did not make that up. In other words, the Minchas Elozor mistakenly and naively thought the whole world was Tzadikim like he was, but in reality he didn’t understand that the world doesn’t really deserve Moshiach.
Now never mind how R. Teichtel decided he can judge the world and decide whether they deserve Moshiach or not; never mind that he has not one Halachic shred of evidence to back up this position of his; but to say that the Minchas Elozor naively looked at the whole world as much more righteous than they actually are, as deserving of redemption when in fact they don’t deserve it, is beyond ludicrous. It’s downright absurd, and for anyone who knows anything about the Minchas Elozor, totally dishonest. If there was one person in the past hundred years who we would say is not guilty of over rating the world, it could very well be the Minchas Elozor. If he’s not first on the list, he’s second.
And to attribute such an attitude to him of all people, is nothing less than the stuff of la la land. And that’s besides the arrogance of saying that he is more able to discern how deserving Klal Yisroel is of greeting Moshiach than the Minchas Elozor. This is a Halachic treatise? Nope. Sorry. It would have been one thing if they would have left it as a sermon or a drush, but because the Zionists don’t really have any serious Halachic backing, they took this sefer and made it something of an icon. It’s a big pity.
BTW, R. Teichtel’s sefer comes without any Haskomos (approbations) form anybody. But he did want Haskomos, so what he did was – I am not making this up either, I promise – he took Haskomos out of another sefer, and printed them in his sefer, saying that the Haskomos would certainly apply to his sefer too, since the two seforim generally say the same things. But none of the rabbis of his time – not a single one – wrote him a haskama.
Another note: Aim HaBanim Semechah speaks basically about building the land. The topic of creating a sovereign state – which was the major objection to Zionism – is almost completely ignored. Perhaps this is what the Lubavitcher Rebbe meant (told to the author’s son, quoted in the introduction, p. 21 ) when he told the son of author to “publicize that your father was a G-d fearing Jew who was far away from Zionism”. I would think this is because in his sefer he never argues in favor of a Jewish State, but rather in favor of building up the land.
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