July 4, 2011 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #597779yichusdikParticipant
So here is my question. R’ Noson Tzvi Finkel made a determination that any chulent selling restaurants or kiosks staying open after 10:30 on Thursday nights in/near meah sheorim would lose their hechsher, as the congregating and socializing and revelry among the bochurim was not appropriate and kept the whole neighborhood up until 2-3 in the morning. OK. I’m not questioning R’ Finkel. But I have to ask the question of those who understand why the hechsherim were jeopardized by actions and decisions having nothing to do with the food or the cooking. If you do understand this, why have so many ridiculed the Hechsher Tzedek coming from the left wing regarding kashrus in America? After all, they are also not only concerned with the food and the cooking, but also with tzaar baalei chayim and kovod habriyos. It would seem that they have used the exact same reasoning as the Rosh Yeshiva of the Mir. If you still disagree that the Hechsher Tzedek has any rationale, are you prepared to contradict the reasoning of R’ Finkel?July 4, 2011 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #783040Pac-ManMember
The difference is in intention. The R”Y is a tzadik with pure intentions, pure motives. The conservative movement are reshoyim gemurim with evil intentions only.July 4, 2011 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #783041popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Joseph: Lets settle on the conservative being tinokos shenishbeu with illegitimate intentions.
Also, Mishpacha ran an excellent article on the “hechsher tzedek” a few weeks ago.July 4, 2011 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #783042popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Also, shouldn’t the title be changed? I got really scared that they actually banned cholent itself.
When that happens I will become conservative.July 4, 2011 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #783043mewhoParticipant
due to the after effects of chulent some wives might wish it were banned.July 4, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #783044600 Kilo BearMember
The Eda haCharedis in Y-m and Rav Landa in Bnei Brak are also charged with preserving the overall “kashrus” of their communities.
I don’t think either of them would withdraw a hechsher from a factory because the employees don’t dress properly, but they are far more than kashrus authorities when they certify any establishment in their own areas. Their job is to maintain “vehaya machanecho kodosh,” and food is just a part of their responsibility to their communities.
Rav Landa does not supervise any restaurant open past 7 PM in Bnei Brak and he has instituted rules about seating there as well in order to prevent 13th Avenue or Avenue J style “hanging out”. He doesn’t even think to institute or enforce seating rules in the employee cafeteria at Coca Cola (which is just a long Shabbos walk away from the heart of Torahdige Bnei Brak). I think he is stricter than the Eda haCharedis but they have the same mandate in “Yerushalayim shel maala” that he has in Bnei Brak.
Mo the Moiser Allen and company want to push a leftist, socialist, non-Torah agenda. They forget that tzedek is also the right of a hard-working entrepreneur to keep what is rightfully his and to make decisions that benefit his business and his consumers. He’d rather see the US become another Greece so he can flaunt his version of tzedek that comes out of the wildness of the 60’s counterculture which in turn was influenced by tzadikim like Guevara and Castro.July 4, 2011 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #783045yichusdikParticipant
Though I disagree with you, Joseph, about intention, I asked about reasoning, not intention. Maybe you could answer the question asked, not the straw man you want to discuss.
BTW, about those Conservative Rabbis. I know one who used to serve as the Rabbi in a tiny community in Waco, Texas. This Rabbi refused to do any conversions while there because there was no possibility of Jewish education for the children, and significant challenges to kashrus and other mitzvos. In the words of this Rabbi, “Why should I create another unobservant Jew?”
Also, Rav Soloveitchik gave reshus over 40 years ago to a number of his talmidim to become rabbis in (right wing) Conservative shuls. Among these was Rav Yosef Kelman, z’l as well as others.
Where I live, and there are a number of very large Conservative shuls, every single one of them has a hechsher on their kitchens and catering from the local (frum, chareidi) vaad Hakashrus, and no Hechsher Tzedek.
Are they frum? no. Are they reshoim gemurim with evil intentions only? also no.
My question was and is about the havoh aminoh of those who say that a hechsher should be about the animal, food, shechita, preparation only, and not about other elements which obviously mean a great deal to R’ Finkel.July 4, 2011 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #783046Pac-ManMember
popa: I stand by the statement that the conservatives are reshoyim. Gedolim have so said. And Mod 80 will back me up on that.July 4, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #783047☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
It would seem that they have used the exact same reasoning as the Rosh Yeshiva of the Mir.
The point of “hechsher tzedek” (which is neither a hechsher nor tzedek) is to trivialize genuine kashrus and denigrate those who really beleive in it.
The point of R’ Finkel’s initiative (this is the first I’ve heard of it) is to peserve, as 600 said, “vehaya machanecho kodosh”.July 4, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #783048
I posted this under the YWN article of “Litzman fights smoking” –July 4, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #783049
I believe that the hechsheirim in and around geulah only give their hechsheirim to restaurants that follow certain standards in hanhagah as well as kashrus.
I’m not sure of the exact peratim but I’ve heard similar to what the bear is saying about Eidah.July 4, 2011 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #783050
I am not familiar with details of the chulent ban, but I think a very defining difference is that the “Hechsher Tzedek” does not involve itself in any Kashrus issues. Therefore what they are doing is coming up with an alternative definition of Kashrus (and a subjective one at that). In the chulent case it does not seem like there is any attempt to redefine kashrus, but rather the Eidah Chareidus (which is a community organization involved in numerous issue besides Kashrus) is refusing to do business with organizations that they feel are functioning in an inappropriate way. So if the “Hechsher Tzedek” crowd would be pushing legitimate hashgachos to boycott firms that do not meet their requirements in areas of “tzedek” that would be a similar type of idea, and the debate may be more about whether those requirements are legitimate. Instead they are attempting to push an entire separate “hechsher” that has nothing to do with Kashrus.
This is just my opinion of the top of my head, but it seems a clear distinction to me.July 4, 2011 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #783051csr1Participant
Smoking destroys only the guf. Night chulent eating destroys the neshama.July 4, 2011 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #783052
It is much easier to get a few store owners to close on Thursday night then it is to convince every single bochur not to smoke. The Rabbonim have written against smoking and those that care, don’t. Those that don’t do.
Personally I have a big taiva to start smoking again but don’t because the Rabbonim say its assur. I’m sure there are tons of people that feel the same way.July 4, 2011 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #783053zaidy78Participant
The badatz and landau have very strict rules to their hashgachos, just just the kashrus aspect of it. The badatz yerushalayim wont give a hechsher on SPRING drink because it has a picture of a man surfing on it. It is their choice to decide who gets the hashgacha and they will only certify things that they themselves will be confortable having in their own home. Resteraunts cannot be open late. That is why many resteraunts in Geula prefer NOT to have the badatz and to be open later. You want badatz, you close earlier.
When the Mir opened in Bais Yisroel and until recently (10 – 15 years ago) there were NO resteraunts in the area. The yeshiva was at the end of an industrial area and the closest “hang outs” were further away. Now, stores selling all sorts of things, opened within daled amos of the Yeshiva. And the Rosh Yeshiva as well as the mashgiach, HaGaon Aaron Chodosh are taking action.
And BTW, smoking is banned in all of the Yeshiva buildings and dorms. Noone smokes in Yeshiva. Maybe they smoke in the stores around, but in Yeshiva, NEVER!!July 4, 2011 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #783055minyan galMember
Derech Hamelech: you said: Personally I have a big taiva to start smoking again but don’t because the Rabbonim say its assur. I’m sure there are tons of people that feel the same way.”
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have never thought about it this way. What you said may be just the thing that I need to hear to enable me to quit smoking. I know all the health risks (who doesn’t, these days??) and am very angry with myself for allowing such a tiny object to exert so much control over my life. I have never given much thought to the religious aspect, even though I remember that my former rabbi A’H” quit over 35 years ago – as soon as the health risks became widely known. He told me that the reason that he quit had to with halacha. I had completely forgotten that. Now, I shall try to quit once again. Thanks for jogging my memory.July 5, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #783056
csr1 – “Smoking destroys only the guf. Night chulent eating destroys the neshama.”
Since it’s Ossur to smoke -you’re destroying your Neshama also!July 5, 2011 3:59 am at 3:59 am #783057
DH – “It is much easier to get a few store owners to close on Thursday night then it is to convince every single bochur not to smoke.”
Do the same thing with the stores that sell tobacco. Any store in the Frum neighborhood that sells a tobacco product to a Frum guy, esp. a Bochur will be boycotted! Since most of the business is Frum, the stores would be scared of a boycott! Remember what they did to the video store?July 5, 2011 4:05 am at 4:05 am #783058
Oh Zaidy – “And BTW, smoking is banned in all of the Yeshiva buildings and dorms. Noone smokes in Yeshiva. Maybe they smoke in the stores around, but in Yeshiva, NEVER!!”
And BTW, most of the chulent eating isn’t in the Yeshiva buildings or the dorms. Almost nooone eats thurs. nite Chulent in Yeshiva, maybe in the stores around, but almost never in the Yeshiva!July 5, 2011 4:30 am at 4:30 am #783059bezalelParticipant
I think a very defining difference is that the “Hechsher Tzedek” does not involve itself in any Kashrus issues. Therefore what they are doing is coming up with an alternative definition of Kashrus (and a subjective one at that).
They aren’t trying to redefine kashrus, one of the prerequisites for the Hechsher Tzedek is that the product also have a Kashrus Hechsher. What they are doing is repackaging “western values” (based on their secular philisophy) as jewish values under the guise of “Tzedek”.July 5, 2011 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #783061
Bezalel — The fact is that the word “hechsher” has always been associated with kashrus, so calling their mark a “hechsher” is in some way redefining kashrus. Certainly many less knowledgeable Jews will assume that the hechsher involves kosher. Whether they are “trying” to do so or not I don’t know, but it seems to me they are.
I absolutely agree with your point that they are trying to repackage western values as Jewish values. In fact there already exist numerous types of certification in the non-Jewish world dealing with these types of issues (the “fair trade” label for example). Why do they need to call this a “hechsher” and promote it as davka a Jewish issue?July 5, 2011 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #783062cherrybimParticipant
Something smells funny.July 5, 2011 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #783063
Do the same thing with the stores that sell tobacco.
I don’t think that would contribute to anything besides for more bitul Torah as the bochurim go further away to get their cigarettes. The chulent stores though are for the most part, just around the yeshivah. And more chulent stores are owned by from Jews than cigarette stores.July 5, 2011 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #783064
yichusdik — “My question was and is about the havoh aminoh of those who say that a hechsher should be about the animal, food, shechita, preparation only, and not about other elements which obviously mean a great deal to R’ Finkel.”
The hechsher still is about the animal, food, shechita, etc. — except they won’t give it if they feel you are a “bad neighbor.” That is different then actively giving a hechsher based on other criteria.
Health — I LOVE your idea of similar measures being taken against stores selling cigarettes.July 5, 2011 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #783065
DH -“The chulent stores though are for the most part, just around the yeshivah.”
So this will cause more bittul Torah, as they will go further away for Chulent.
“And more chulent stores are owned by from Jews than cigarette stores.”
The fact of ownership doesn’t stop boycotts. I don’t think the owner of the video store was “Frum”!July 5, 2011 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #783066charliehallParticipant
“why the hechsherim were jeopardized by actions and decisions having nothing to do with the food or the cooking”
Community rabbis have the power to require more than the laws of kashrut being followed. And 100% of us would agree with this: Nobody would want an Orthodox rabbi to certify the food at a shomer Shabat strip club. The question is where to draw the line. Another consideration is the concern for existing businesses if a possibly competing business wants to set up shop in the same neighborhood. Batei dinim have ruled in favor of existing businesses being able to keep out competitors. Another possible consideration is making the food available to all; the local Vaad in my neighborhood requires Jewish grocers to accept food stamps if they want the hechsher.July 5, 2011 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #783068Pac / ManMember
Why would a grocer not willingly accept food stamps, even without pressure from their hechsher?July 6, 2011 4:42 am at 4:42 am #783069bezalelParticipant
Why would a grocer not willingly accept food stamps, even without pressure from their hechsher?
It depends on their business model. If they run their business legitimatly accepting food stamps is just another hassle that is usually worth it, but if they want to run a “cash” business for its “tax advantages” the record keping requirements for accepting food stamps are prohibitive.
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