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I am a bochur going from a serious top tier MO hesder yeshiva in EY to a top tier yeshivish place in NY for third year this Elul, and think of myself as a decent learner and masmid. I just farhered and I was not able to handle so well the bochens aggresivenss- he was very sweet when we were talking, but when we were learning it was very intense. I think its just a difference in style from the MO world to yeshivish world that I am not used to. Will this be a problem in a yeshivish institution? Any tips? thanks.
Yitzchok, firstly, shalom uvracha! I went through a very similar transition as you, except I was coming from an MO high school setting, and not a hesder yeshiva.
What you’ll find in yeshivos is that when people learn, they are as the gemara says “they start out as enemies but end as beloved friends,” the passion and fire of milchamta shel Torah in no way is personal or indicative of a middos problem. As you saw, the bochenb was very nice to you before and after
But in learning, you’re going to have to be ruthless; not “to” other people, but “at” them, because you’re trying to figure out the emes, whether your svara is right or wrong, and that is forged only in the fire of rischa deoraysoh.
But the bonds you build with your chavrusos and members of your chabura/shiur are indescribable; I’m still close friends with chavrusos i had 17 years ago – Torah connects you on a level that’s deeper than anything else.
There’s story where a reporter came to check out a famous yeshiva and write an article on it. When he saw the beis medrash and the bochurim were yelling at each other in learning, he asked the person who brought him there, “I understand that they are learning the Torah and it’s very special but why do they have to be screaming at each other?”
The person answered him, “If someone would come and try to take your life, would you start screaming? Of course. To these bochurim, Torah is their life. If someone tells them that the Torah that they are trying to tell over is not true, it’s like someone is taking away their life and that’s why they scream.”It all comes down to your social skills. If you’re able to make friends with them, you’ll be alright. You’ll discover that all the learning success (as a collective) comes from being liked by others
What about Ner Yisrael or YGW
Dear Avira,
I get the impression that you have more of a fighting personality than the OP.
Dear Eidele,
Here is what you can do. Review, review, and review! Whatever you want to discuss, prepare it so well that you would not need to look inside to confirm how you understood it. Know the words that gave you your insight verbatim. The yeshivishe mehalech puts it’s preference on the key words of what is being understood. If you know exactly which words moved you to your conclusions, you would reach the conlusion of most of your interactions much faster. This would cut out a lot of the fighting.
Dear Shimon,
I disagree. Most of the top learners are more lonlier than the crowd. To be succseful while learning, requires a great deal of camaraderie. But that is only attainable by fitting in with the culture which is an argumentative one.
Going from MO to NY Yeshivish will be transition. If you put Torah first, you’ll do just fine. If you are bothered by “yeshivisha shprach” you’ll be continuously unhappy.
The yeshivish world of America carries a lot of weight on of the “yeshivisha” mindset. It’s there because it helps keep the standard flow. As someone who went through it, without being comfortable, I can tell you that I had no no issue with the sprach. I had my own struggles and was, and remain, deeply appreciative of the yeshivisha oilom who never ostracized me for my own shortcomings.
I always felt welcome and I always felt the push to self improve. Hopefully, you’ll feel the same.
I know someone who went from a MO Yeshiva to one of the biggest Yeshivas in Israel. He knew the material very well and was able to handle all of the Bochan’s questions. The reason for this is that the topic of the Faher was a masehcta thay they don’t learn in Yeshivas so the Bochan wasn’t as ready to fight on the pshat (although it was very impressive that he was holding in it enough to ask questions). If you do a classic Yeshiva masechta the Bochan may have his own pshat and then it can be very challenging. But that’s not how most learning is. In addition, it depends on which MO hesder Yeshiva, some hesder yeshivas have rebbiem who are known to be extremely intense and aggressive (in a good way). Way more than any “black hat” Yeshiva.
You should stay in EY: the Torah you learn there is a higher madreiga than anything you’ll learn in chu”l.
Dear Taka,
Torah is compared to the midbar. There is no higher levels. The only catch is the humility of the student.
Nom, that’s not true. Chazal talk about toras eretz yisroel in several places, aside from the mitzvos (and averos) that occur there being on a higher level in general.
That being said, some learn better in chutz laaretz, including myself; there are fewer distractions here, less drama, easier to get by financially, etc… nothing about the land itself, just the current lifestyle that is necessary there at this time isn’t for everyone.
Dear Avirah,
I don’t see where you stated anything against my post. The Torah that is being learned is not one and the same with the mitzva (of Talmud Torah) that is being done.
There are different ways to learn. If you are uncomfortable with certain style, you might consider other ones, especially if the style includes rudeness,, however excusable as listed above. This difference goes bacl to Bavli and Yerushalmi, with those from EY, like you, being less argumentive.
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