January 13, 2021 5:33 am at 5:33 am #1938195torahvaluesoverpartyParticipant
Being that the mainstream media likely controls the thought process of the majority of Americans, IF THEORETICALLY, an election was stolen by democrats, how would we know? Would Chris Cuomo and Rachel maddow show any of the damning information that supports a stolen election? Obviously not, so how would we know? What is a potential scenario (if there is) in which the majority of democrats admit they stole it?January 13, 2021 7:33 am at 7:33 am #1938269akupermaParticipant
The same way it was clear when Democrats stole elections in the past (consider Daley in Chicago, or Tammany Hall in New York). You would audit the list of who voted and see errors, You would see widely different results in places where Democrats count the votes and Republicans do. There would be inconsistencies.
Note that in Georgia, a state under Republican control, the audits showed no errors. What the results throughout the country showed is that many core Republicans (affluent, business-oriented, often suburban and in no way deplorable) supported the ticket (the Republicans won most Senate races, gained in the House and did well in the state legislatures) BUT DID NOT SUPPORT TRUMP. This suggests Trump lost not due to fraud, but because he ignored a major part of his base,January 13, 2021 7:41 am at 7:41 am #1938282ujmParticipant
It isn’t theoretical. Election fraud is a regular occurrence. If it weren’t potentially sufficient to change the outcome of elections, they wouldn’t bother doing it.
It is why they oppose implementing anti-fraud measures such as requiring ID when voting or verifying eligibility when registering. That would impede their ability to cheat.January 13, 2021 8:29 am at 8:29 am #1938287
So, TVP, is apparently of the opinion that the judges in over 60 cases, including judges Trump appointed, Bill Barr, Lindsay Graham, the guy who was at Homeland Security, Republican Governors, and Secretary of States, including numerous others who in many cases were strong supporters of Trump, apparently all get their info from “Mainstream Media.”
The only media that lied about this election was right-wing media. What you call the MSM did not lie about the election.January 13, 2021 8:34 am at 8:34 am #1938290QuayboardwarriorParticipant
The question is, upon what evidence do you conclude voter fraud is widespread and to the extent it changes the outcome of elections?January 13, 2021 10:49 am at 10:49 am #1938345jackkParticipant
The real question is how would Trump supporters ever know when Trump is lying.
The answer is they never would and they don’t care. He lies and lies and lies and they believe every single word that he says. He lied at least 100 times in his speech on Jan 6th.
They believe that he is the sole arbiter of truth and he is all knowing, all seeing and all truthful.
There are no facts . Nor is there any need for evidence. Nobody can tell him he is wrong.
Everyone from election workers right up to the Attorney General of the US are part of the cabal and the steal because everyone who disagrees with him is automatically a liar and fraud.
That TVOP even entertains the idea that an election can be stolen and that the media would simply go along with it shows just how far trumps repeated lies have inserted themselves into the Republican party.
Would Chris Cuomo and Rachel Maddow show any of the damning information that supports a stolen election? THE ANSWER IS 100% YES, YES, YES.January 13, 2021 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1938352
“The answer is they never would and they don’t care. He lies and lies and lies and they believe every single word that he says”
This is pure falsehood that has been proved wrong by almost every single Trump supporter here.
“That TVOP even entertains the idea that an election can be stolen and that the media would simply go along with it shows just how far trumps repeated lies have inserted themselves into the Republican party.”
This has played out in chicago many times, which means it happens in other places as well.
“Would Chris Cuomo and Rachel Maddow show any of the damning information that supports a stolen election? THE ANSWER IS 100% YES, YES, YES.”
Really now. That is just silly
Its not fair to take rhetoric you hear in the news and repeat it here against evidence of the contrary. Especially if you want to complain about others’ doing so.January 13, 2021 10:56 am at 10:56 am #1938351
@Quayboardwarrior and @everyone
The question is not what evidence would demonstrate fraud. And the question clearly is not whether or not there was any fraud in this case.
The question, and a very well noted one, is: Being that the information we receive, or are allowed to receive, is being so massively stifled, censored, misconstrued – and that those who even dare ask to give it a fair assessment as to their legitimacy, face intimidation and their livelihoods and rights obstructed (all fact) – thus, “THEORETICALLY”, “Election fraud, how would we know?January 13, 2021 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #1938368jackkParticipant
I will use one example to show where you are wrong. You can then multiply it.
There is a SOS in Georgia and a COO in his office. Brad Raffensperger and Gabriel Sterling. They are not the media and are not being stifled, censored or misconstrued.
The intimidation was coming from trump and not the other side.
It is their job to run elections in Georgia.
The SOS was on the phone with trump and he told trump multiple times throughout the call “your data is wrong”. ( I would have told him to shut up and stop lying but he is more politically correct than me.)
They checked into everything that trump has claimed and they found ZERO fraud. They have answers to every question and scenario that trump relied upon. It has all been publicized by them and they stand behind everything they declared without a slight doubt in their minds.
It is very easy to detect fraud in an election and to publicize it because there are people who run the elections.
THERE WAS ZERO FRAUD AND BIDEN WON THE ELECTION IN A LANDSLIDE.January 13, 2021 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1938377
Ver well said jackk. It is very sad how so many here just can’t get out of their heads the lies they have been fed. Really, not worth arguing with TVP, Health, Syag and a few others. They will never actually address anything of substance and just keep on repeating nonsense and falsehood.
Lindsay Graham, a vocal Trump supporter said last Wednesday that the election was not stolen and if you think otherwise there is simply no way he can convince you because you believe lies.
There has to come a point where people recognize the difference between truth and fiction. Instead we have attacks on “liberals” on some theoretical election fraud, when in actuality we saw a concerted effort by conservative media, Trump, Cruz, and others to actually steal an election and then go on to incite a riot. There really is no conversation to be had here. The folks persisting with the lies will respond with more lies and accusations. That is just the way it goes when people get caught up in lies.January 13, 2021 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #1938385akupermaParticipant
If the election was stolen, there would have been a “Blue wave”. The Democrats have been stuffing ballot boxes for two centuries, and never once did they ever split their tickets. The results show that many Republicans did not vote for Trump (and if you use Reagan as the model of a modern Republican, Trump is a populist RINO, which would explain this year’s results). Trump also borrowed from Hilary’s game plan and focused an his base rather than trying to expand his base and win the election.January 13, 2021 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1938406
“Really, not worth arguing with TVP, Health, Syag and a few others. ”
Oh cut the garbage. You really are just a parrot, i knew to expect a post from you right after mine, my stalking friend. i was not talking about election fraud I was talking about *both* sides being inflexible. It was a unifying comment, something you don’t seem to have much of a clue about so sorry for you .
Good life advice for you- If it’s not worth arguing then don’t.January 13, 2021 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1938444
Was not arguing, was complimenting jackk on his well written words. That you take offense, whatever.January 13, 2021 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1938455
Umm, that was the first line. The next one had my name in it. Probably just a typo 🙄January 13, 2021 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1938460☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
An imam a priest and a rabbit go to donate blood. The rabbit says, “I think I’m a typo”.January 13, 2021 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1938461
@akuperma , @emes nisht sheker , @jackk
שבעה דברים בגולם ושבעה בחכם. חכם … שואל כענין … וחלופיהן בגולם – אבות ה:ז
[There are] seven things [characteristic] in a man of imperfectly developed mind, and seven in a wise man: a wise man … *asks in accordance with the subject-matter* … and the reverse of these [are characteristic] in a man of imperfectly developed mind. Avos 5:7 (Sancino’s translation)
Now, if you have managed to read this far, and have been able to understand the quote above, then hear this: You are fools. This discussion has ZERO to do with whether or not this election was rigged or not, nothing to do with fraud or not, it’s not about proof or evidence or what happened last month.
Rather, the question being asked is…
Being that most media is left-leaning (fact), and being that currently we are witnessing never-before-seen levels of media and tech companies exercising their abilities to suppress those with dissenting opinions (fact) (whether that’s right, wrong or dangerous, or not), and despite, obviously, that individuals can still get their voices heard to varying degrees, but that is nothing compared to mass media bombarding your various devices with opposing sentiment (fact)… thus, “THEORETICALLY” how would the masses be expected to receive a fair account something which is not favoured by said media company.
If it makes you happier, you can imagine that everyone agrees with you that the elections were 100% squeaky clean, and that no-one smells a fish here, and even that everyone is with you that nobody “believes that [Trump] is the sole arbiter of truth and he is all knowing, all seeing and all truthful.”, and if you want, you can even imagine that the question switches the words “Rep.” for “Dem.”.
It is a THEORETICAL question.
Now, if you have anything of value to answer or add to this discussion, then please go right ahead. But don’t talk about the integrity of the election, nor your opinions of Trump nor those who side with him – that’s not the discussion. You fools.January 13, 2021 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1938500☕️coffee addictParticipant
That was very bunny
(Oops, another typo)January 14, 2021 1:26 am at 1:26 am #1938553Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
@Shady >> how would the masses be expected to receive a fair account
I think you are asking a fair question and this question is behind the confused mass of protest. We had a complicated event with lots of rule changes comparing with usual elections + information blocks. Thus, it is impossible to prove – and impossible to reject – any hypothesis. With that, everyone is following their own biases and the society can not agree with anything.
I think these events help us understand “moris ayn” better. Public policies should be conducted in a way that assures people of integrity, rather than using “caveat emptor” approach – where the opposite side needs to prove misbehavior.January 14, 2021 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1938681
Great answer. This past election was an exemplary example of an election conducted in a way that assured people of the integrity.
Unfortunately Trump, Cruz, Hannity, Tucker, Rudy, Ellis, Powell, and others decided to simply outright lie about the election thereby sowing doubt in the masses that get their news via conservative media. This goes to show that you cannot rely on conservative media to properly inform the masses. Unfortunately, this time it resulted in an insurrection riot with several deaths associated with it.
We have to appreciate the mainstream media for the efforts to combat the lie. Sadly too many don’t listen to mainstream media and instead get their news from conservative propaganda media.January 14, 2021 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1938720
“If you can bear to hear the words you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools…”January 14, 2021 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1938727
You are innocent until proven guilty. The election is honest until proven otherwise. Hamotzi mechavero alav horeyo.January 14, 2021 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1938728
People have a chazkus kashrus even goyim there is masiach lefi tumo and mirtas being cought as Rav Moshe says on chalav stam.January 14, 2021 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1938737
The election isn’t a person.
😶January 14, 2021 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1938782
RE -“You are innocent until proven guilty. The election is honest until proven otherwise. Hamotzi mechavero alav horeyo.”
You actually have to read other Topics!
I posted a lot of proof in them.January 14, 2021 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1938784ParticipantParticipant
how would we know? easy. Biden would admit it.
he’s an honorable guy.January 14, 2021 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1938787
Emes: I do not know whether there was “massive voter fraud” or not. I wasn’t there, as in all the places that there are issues being raised. I also understand the concept of innocent until proven guilty. But YOU also must understand that the fact that voter fraud cannot be proven (if that is the case) does not mean it didn’t happen. It just means that we can’t act on it. We can compare it to the OJ trial. OJ was aquitted on murder, but in a subsequent civil trial was found guilty of depriving the victims of civil rights.Well, did he kill them or not? the point is that there is a level of proof needed to to have soomething be found guilty in a court of law, but not having reached that level, does not mean that it didn’t happen. As such, anyone is free to believe what he wants, but not to act on it in a harmful way. So, you choose to believe that there was no fraud, and all the claims of people that say they saw fraud are lies. And you can believe that OJ did not kill his wife. the thing is, your startng point is that there was no fraud so you can believe the media, and you know there was no fraud because the media said so, unless you have a direct source of information that bypasses the media. Remember, no proof does not mean it didn’t happen.(also does not mean it did happen)
R’ E. Mirsas means that they fear the consequences of their actions. I don’t think that in this climate the Democrats fear any consequences, the same as they accused President Trump for the last four years.January 14, 2021 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1938792
People are involved. Robots do not elect robots.January 14, 2021 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1938824ParticipantParticipant
correct. robots elect Biden.January 14, 2021 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1938832
eddiee – so you are saying that I started assuming no fraud because the media said so…
Right… makes so much sense. Oh, remind me why the non-propagandist mainstream media said no fraud? That’s right, it was because Trump, Rudy, Ellis, Hannity, Carlson, Cruz, Gaetz, Hawley and others with no evidence started making these crazy claims. Mainstream media did their job by responding that they have actually not shown any evidence so there is no reason to assume fraud.
Simply ridiculous. You want to claim there is fraud, show the evidence. Just making up claims because you don’t like the election result is pretty pathetic.January 14, 2021 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1938847
yawnJanuary 14, 2021 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1938849
ENS -“That’s right, it was because Trump, Rudy, Ellis, Hannity, Carlson, Cruz, Gaetz, Hawley and others with no evidence started making these crazy claims. Mainstream media did their job by responding that they have actually not shown any evidence so there is no reason to assume fraud”
The Fraud was posted by me and other posters in different Topics.
So before you lie again, go check out those Topics!January 14, 2021 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1938848
So you are assuming that when the MSM responds that there is no proof, or that there proof is not valid, the MSM is telling the truth. Perhaps they are, but why should I believe them? This is not a court of law, that I need burden of proof. I would assume, given the last four years of Trump bashing, that that the MSM would not support anything that is pro Trump. The MSM need to earn the trust of the public before we can assume that they will have honest reporting with regard to Trump, and the whole Conservative Republican wing. The idea that the media is unbiased has not been true for as long as I can remember.January 14, 2021 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1938856
Health, kol haposel posel bemumo posel as quoted by you on another thread applies to you.January 14, 2021 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #1938859
If tbe fraud is big enough to make a difference in the election we know there was fraud.January 14, 2021 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1938878
It isn’t it ironic that for every electoral vote (232) tbere was a House impeachment vote for incitement of insurrectiion because of false claim of fraud.January 14, 2021 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #1938910
RE -“Health, kol haposel posel bemumo posel as quoted by you on another thread applies to you”
Very Mature reply!
Oh Btw, if you actually read my posts on other Topics, you’d see I quoted articles that prove Fraud.
It wasn’t my Proofs.
If you have any contrary Proofs, by all means, go over there and Argue.
IMHO, you have nothing.
But keep on living in your Little Dream World!
EditedJanuary 14, 2021 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1938951
eddiee – let me help you out. Lindsey Graham a staunch supporter of Trump said there was no fraud and if you don’t believe it there is no convincing you. Over 60 court cases were lost by Trump’s side with judges from across the political spectrum, including judges appointed by Trump, presiding. Bill Barr, a Trump loyalist who he loves as AG said there was no fraud. Republican Governors and Secretary of State said there was no fraud. The head of the Department of Homeland Security said there was no fraud.
Basically, if you think anyone needs to hear from the non-propogandist mainstream media that there was no fraud you are simply mistaken. There was so much other info not from the media.
In other words, if you are busy with your election fraud claims, you are simply delusional. Show the proof. And no, whatever Health is spouting is not proof. I tried previously debating him on some of the supposed evidence he referenced but it got no place with him. I guess as far as he is concerned if Powell and Rudy said there is evidence it must be the case, despite everyone else disagreeing with them.
Oh, isn’t it surprising that Trump is stiffing Rudy on his fees. Must be even Trump thinks Rudy was delusional.January 14, 2021 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1938956
Health, how many times must we tell you I don’t have to prove no fraud? In any case it did not affect the result of the electiions as Biden won with an enormous margin. Even with Georgia and Arizona or Wisconsin deducted he still won. Michigan and Pennsylvania difference is too big.January 14, 2021 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1938957
The issue in this thread is not whether there was fraud or not. The issue is, since all the info that most of us get is funneled through the MSM, how do we know what to believe? ALL media is biased. Was itt the American revolution or the American revolt(1776)? One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter- NOT referring to the current situation. I am strong minded, you are stubborn and he is a pig-headed fool. Just how we subconciously word an article reveals our inner bias.January 14, 2021 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1938972GadolhadorahParticipant
If the Dems were politically smart, which they rarely are, they would get out front of the voting security issue and try to enact some legit type minimum standards for voter certification and ballot security. This can be done without “suppressing” legitimate voters. Ideally, we should move all elections online as several states have been doing for years but I doubt there are the votes for a federal mandate given that constitutionally, states really control the nuts and bolts of how elections are conducted.January 15, 2021 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1938976
eddiee – Use Google to try to find primary sources of info. It is not very hard.
Also, if you use history as a guide, just remember the MSM was correct this election there was no fraud to overturn an election. It was Conservative media that propagated a lie. If you are concerned about trusting the media you should apparently trust the MSM before Conservative media. At least MSM tries to confront its bias and say the truth, whereas Conservative media is all about propping up Republican Power, for which Truth is of minor relevance.January 15, 2021 1:03 am at 1:03 am #1938983Slimshim1Participant
Why would we assume there was only fraud on one side of the aisle? And why weren’t the fraudulent ballots democrat across the board? And why would republicans certify election results that didn’t favor their candidate? And why would republican appointed judges (many by DT)throw out any case presented to them? It all doesn’t make any sense to me?January 15, 2021 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1938992
A bunch of those answers can be found by disregarding newscasters and watching video clups of testimony and people involved in the process who’s words get altered while presented. It takes some serious time but it is interesting to see what is behind the spinning before it gets spun.January 15, 2021 9:46 am at 9:46 am #1939055
I personally don’t trust any media, right or left. There is no unbiased media, as I said before. To use the expression, anything I read in any form of media I take with a grain of salt (or the whole saltshaker). The fact that the election was not overturned does not mean that fraud wasn’t there. I personally subscribe to the school of thought that elections are “too big to fail”. Once you overturn one election, there will be doubt cast on any election, past, present, and future. Sort of like when a policeman is caught falsifying evidence. It casts doubt on all his previous cases. Threfore, unless the fraud was so widespread and evident that all parties agree that it happened, the courts should throw the cases out even with the flimsiest of excuses. I believe that in many of the court cases in this election, that is exactly what happened, amnd while I may not be happy with the overall election situation, this is a case that for the greater long term good, we have to ignore the irregularities. If a court were to actually hear the evidence at an open trial, it could not ignore the evidence. So in many cases, based on what I am seeing in the media, the courts threw the case out (refused to take the case) so as not to have to deal with the terrifying possibility of overturning an election. Sort of the courts way of pleading the fifth.January 15, 2021 10:39 am at 10:39 am #1939067
Eddiee – yes, exactly. I agree with your cautious stance and i have also found much of the same information that you speak of.January 16, 2021 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1939316
eddiee – so the courts were not brave enough to actually look at the evidence? Is this the same evidence that lawyers refused to present in court because they were afraid they would lose their law licenses or is this secret evidence that no one knows about? There were over 60 cases lost. Don’t be ridiculous that all these judges were afraid to hear these cases. At least one poster here is happy with your justification (really a lie) as it lets her go on believing fraud without having to reconcile anything that shows this claim is based on thing air.January 17, 2021 7:41 am at 7:41 am #1939455
Emes: Please let’s get the correct definition of “Lie”. A lie is to deliberately give over false information. My “justification” is not a lie- it is an opinion. The fact that you don’t agree with it does not make it wrong or a lie. To remain on topic, please remember that all your information about court cases, etc. comes through the media. As the OP asked, since at this point many people have difficulty believing anything the media says, Right or Left, how could we make an infomed decision?Saying the media doesnt lie is foolish, and even you would have to admit they cherry pick the news they print.January 17, 2021 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1939504
eddiee – I don’t know about you (I assume you get your info from partisan right-wing media), but myself I actually read some of the court decisions, I don’t rely on the media like apparently you seem to think everyone does.
If you actually read some of the court’s opinions, it would perhaps straighten you out. The reason why the right was able to persist with this lie, is they managed to convince all their followers to not look at the sources.
And to be clear, what you call the Mainstream Media did not lie about the election or court cases, only conservative media lied about it. In some of the court cases, lawyers representing Trump’s side, actually refused to present actual evidence of fraud despite publicly claiming there was evidence. When you look at other cases were evidence was presented and it was torn apart as being worthless, you would understand why most of what was called evidence by those you apparently believe was not worth the paper it was written on.January 17, 2021 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1939520
ENS -“Bill Barr, a Trump loyalist who he loves as AG said there was no fraud. Republican Governors and Secretary of State said there was no fraud. The head of the Department of Homeland Security said there was no fraud.
Mainstream media did their job by responding that they have actually not shown any evidence so there is no reason to assume fraud.”
“Show the proof.”
We did – time after time!
Why do you keep lying?
Is it because – if you repeat it over and over, people will be convinced of the Lie?!?
I posted this in other Topics, which you never read:
“Anyways, the evidence was from a company that does Audits.
They found problems with Dominion results, in Antrim County, Michigan.”January 17, 2021 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1939522
I saw a clip of bill barr clarifying that he did NOT say that there was no election fraud, he just said that the election wasn’t rigged. He even went on to say that there could very well have been fraud but that he was speaking purely in regard to the nationwide mechanical hardware system, seperate from what individual counties did on their own. I heard him say this shortly after his words went viral, being used to imply it was a fair election. I don’t understand why it’s been disregarded, why honest people would be afraid of claims like this. I do think that the cover ups have made me more suspicious than the disclosures.
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