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If I may monopolize this discussion for another moment:
I am reminded of Groucho Marx’s assessment of the educational value of television. I paraphrase:
I find television very educational. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book.
(apropos of nothing except the previous quote)
He also said, and I paraphrase again:
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend.
Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read.
The truth is we can’t live with them and we can’t live without em!
but you can live without them, if you choose.
wolfish= because the ones you listed are either educational, non-addictive hobbies.
Mi keamcha,
Thanks for the reply. However, I see that now you’re switching your tune. You made a very emphatic statement earlier on page 4 of this thread… that handheld electronic games are assur because of bittul z’man. In fact, your exact words were:
handheld games are bitul ZMAN and ASSUR for EVERYONE.
You did NOT say that they were assur because they were addicting. Based on that, I am asking you why the other activities I mentioned are not assur because of bittul z’man.
Put it this way — I am an avid photographer. I enjoy taking pictures of people, animals, plants, nature or really just about anything. I think we can agree that for most people, photography is not addictive. But what I am asking you is why is it permitted for me (or anyone else) to engage in photography because of bittul z’man? Why is photography (or any of the other activities I mentioned) any different than handheld games based solely on a bittul z’man perspective?
The Wolf
Perhaps MKY is saying that something of educational value is not necessarily bitul zman.
Joseph,
Perhaps. I’ll entertain the argument that educational activities are not necessarily bittul z’man according to MKY. However, there are still some difficulties – specifically the fact that some handheld games *are* educational, while some of the activities I mentioned are not educational. That being the case, my question still remains — why are handheld games bittul z’man but the activities I listed (or others) not bittul z’man?
MKY, are you out there?
The Wolf
Really a person does need healthy outlets! If that includes electronic gadgets or sports or reading etc its important!
A normal person can not be 24 hours without some distractions! If you don’t allow these distractions for whatever reasons adults and kids can find more dangerous activities or they could crack!
Wolf, sorry for sticking into your conversation, but I happen to agree with MKY. I really think that the ‘addictive’ and ‘bittul zman’ arguments are one and the same. Something which is addictive wastes more time, no?
Secondly, face it, no one gets addicted to photography to an unhealthy extent. As for gameboys, I don’t know if you’ve seen it before but I have. They say, just one more game, just one more game, and then another, before they know it, they’ve been sitting there for hours looking at a screen, while the brain freezes up. I know because it happened to me. This is one of the Nisyonos of our generation. The technology. Around two years ago, one of my teachers came in and told us that there was a boy (non-Jewish) who just died from playing video games. He sat for 26 hours straight. His mother begged him to stop, but he didn’t. It ended when he collapsed. I know, it’s an extreme example, and who knows if it’s really true. But it is so realistic. I can see it happening. As for photography…what’s the longest you ever spent taking pictures?
Abx,
Things that are addictive* can lead to bittul z’man — on that point I won’t argue. But that doesn’t mean that only addictive things are assur because of bittul z’man. There are plenty of things that are complete wastes of time, even though they aren’t addictive that I think we can all agree should be curtailed because of bittul z’man.
Furthermore, I agree with you that photography isn’t addictive for most people — I thought I made that point in my previous post. But, as I outlined above, some could argue that the time I take to take pictures of plants, bugs, etc. could be better utilized. So, why isn’t that bittul z’man (according to MKY)?
As to your last question… I have often put hours into taking picutres at a stretch. The Sunday before this past Purim I took pictures for about six hours.
The Wolf
* Because a child enjoys doing something and wants to continue doing it does not necessarily make the activity addictive. Similarly, the case you brought regarding the kid who played for 26 hours is hardly proof either — almost anything can be (and has been) abused to an unhealthy degree in the past; but isolated cases do not make it addictive. Nor, for the record, am I saying that it’s not addictive — I simply don’t have the data to show it to be or not to be. If you can point me to a study or two that shows that handheld electronic games are addictive, I would certainly be willing to further hear your argument.
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