September 19, 2011 12:43 am at 12:43 am #599444rebbi1Participant
My daughter came home quoting a Midrash that when the Arabs get their own state, Mosiach will come immediately. Has anyone ever heard of something like this?September 19, 2011 12:46 am at 12:46 am #810940
The Arabs already have 22! states.September 19, 2011 12:47 am at 12:47 am #810941
Something similar (but not the same) is a Gemara in Yoma, but I don’t think it says that Moashiach comes immediately.
It doesn’t make sense as written. The Arabs had control of Eretz Yisroel many times throughout history.September 19, 2011 12:54 am at 12:54 am #810942rebbi1Participant
where is that gemora?September 19, 2011 1:10 am at 1:10 am #810943
I heard something in High School that when Eretz Yisrael is ruled by the arabs for 9 months Moshiach will come
(doesn’t make sense though, b/c they used to own EY during the Turks0September 19, 2011 1:32 am at 1:32 am #810944
Coffee, it actually says that about Edom. Check out the Zohar Chadash in Parshas Balaq. The only difficulty there is in interpreting what is physical and what is Ruchnius. It is also hard to tell which events happened or will happen.September 19, 2011 1:37 am at 1:37 am #810945
The Turks are not arabs, they are muslims.
(Arabs is a race, Islam is a religion that most arabs and many more none arabs believe in. And while any medrash might refare to arabs as a race islam as a religion started around 1,300 years ago, that will be at least 500 years after any medrash)September 19, 2011 1:42 am at 1:42 am #810946
It’s towards the beginning of Yoma (I would guess Daf 11 but I could be off by a bit). There are several points there about when Moshiach will come, some of which contradict each other. One says that Moshiach won’t come until Persia (read: Arabs) control the whole world, I believe. The one that I think CA is referring to is also there. That one says that Moshiach will come after Rome rules the whole world for 9 months, if I recall correctly.September 19, 2011 1:53 am at 1:53 am #810947
oh maybe that was itSeptember 19, 2011 1:55 am at 1:55 am #810948
Persia is Iran, another non arab muslim nation.September 19, 2011 2:18 am at 2:18 am #810949
Actually, the Paras referred to in the Gemara had a mostly Arab (Eastern Arab, not North African) populace.September 19, 2011 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #810950
Sam2, I beg to differ. During the time of the gemara (200-700 CE by most accounts), the area was ruled by a number of groups, but mostly by Persians and Parthians, who shared ethnic and linguistic roots. Megilas Esther gives us, at an even earlier time, evidence of a distinct Persian ethnicity, not least in its use of Persian language, for example “Achashdarpanim” ” Pashos” which are clearly what we today call satraps and Pashas which are Persian terms, as well as “achashteranim”, and other words that had no equivalent in Lashon Hakodesh.
Until the rise of Islam in the mid 600’s, Arabs as a dominant ethnicity were confined to the Arabian peninsula and desert areas nearby, if they were nomadic beduin, as opposed to city dwellers. Given that we are told the Gemara was finished within 50-75 years of that time, and in the preceding 400 years the Jews lived in Persian dominated cities (for example, Pumpeditha, a Persian name) I think they knew who they lived among. Also, when the gemara wanted to, it identified the area (as opposed to the nation and the monarchy), as Bavel, a geographic term that hadn’t been applied to any ethnic group since the fall of the first beis hamikdash.
By the way, those North Africa Arabs? where do you think they came from? The second wave of Muslim conquest that swept them to the Atlantic. They originated in the Arabian peninsula too.
Lastly, and most importantly, The gemara in Yoma talks about the “end” coming when Edom will fight Paras.
Edom is interesting, because before it began being identified with Rome and the church, it was originally identified with nomadic detert and hill dwelling tribes of the descendants of Esav who lived generally south and east of Eretz Yisroel. In other words, Arabs.September 19, 2011 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #810951
Yichus: I agree with everything you say (except the Edom part, that I have to think about a little more). However, I still think that the near-Eastern Persians are probably closer to the modern-day Arabs than any other current major ethnic group. Same with the natives of North Africa before the Moslem conquests. 1500 years ago there may have been a difference but for our intents and purposes we can now refer to them as “Arabs”.September 19, 2011 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #810952
descendants of Esav who lived generally south and east of Eretz Yisroel. In other words, Arabs.
Keep in mind that the whole world originated in the mideast. Does that make us all Arabs?September 19, 2011 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #810953
Sam2, good point. The Sefarim break down society into these two groups, Edom and Yshmael.
As for the Edom business, it is confusing. How do they come to be Rome? Moreover, the Romans are referred to as Kitim, by Balaq. The ibn Ezra says, for these reasons, that Rome is not Edom.
However, I resloved the issue when I read the Sefer Hayashar (old Medrash compilation) that the Kitim fought with Edom. After being defeated a few times, the Kitim eventualy succeeded in conquering the Edomites. After that there wasn’t another Edom king and the two peoples mixed.September 19, 2011 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #810954
And while any medrash might refare to arabs as a race, islam as a religion started around 1,300 years ago. That will be at least 500 years after any medrash.
Not ‘any’ Medrash. Many Midrashim were written or finished in the time of the Geonim. The Medrash in Nasso speaks about the Cristians and Arabs claiming that they have the Torah. That is why we didn’t write Torah Shel Bichsav, so that they shouldn’t lay claim to that as well, says the Medrash. The Kamarna writes that the Raaya Mahimna in the Zohar Hakadosh was written by a Gaon named Shalom.
Who wrote, “Ha D’reb Ashi Bedusa Hi”, if Reb Ashi made the Gemara? The Tzemach Dovid writes that it was written 70 years after Rav Ashi was Niftar.September 19, 2011 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #810955
Actually, You should read Jon Entine’s Abraham’s Children, about Jews and DNA. You know who the closest genetic relatives are to modern day Arabs (those on the Eastern shores of the Mediterranean, at least)? Yep. Us. You and Me, and every other Jewish community whose haplotypes were included in the studies he researched and quoted.
Persians are considered part of the Indo-Iranian group of ethnicities, and they migrated from Central Asia. They are linguistically distinct (speaking farsi/persian rather than Arabic, which is a lot closer to Hebrew). The Arabs originated in the Arabian peninsula, and are a distinct ethnic, linguistic, and genetic group.
North Africans are a different story. There are a few groups. In Egypt, there was and is a large ethnic subgroup that developed along the Nile, but it had a lot of interplay with Phoenicians, Hyksos, Nubian and other African groups, so there is less ethnic and genetic cohesion. In the Libya/Tunisia area, there is the remnant of the Carthaginian pepoples, who were related to the Phoenicians and the Greeks. Further West there was a larger Berber influence, which came from the Saharan interior. But overlaying all of this was the massive influx of Arabs in the 700’s, which radically changed the demographic makeup of North Africa.
I agree that North Africans by and large describe themselves as part of the Arab Ummah. The modern Persians definitely do not.September 19, 2011 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #810956
The problem we have with defining Edom is that over time our gedolim began to use ethnic terms that had specific geographic and linguistic references for Imperial and religious meanings. For example, Edom came to be defined as the Roman Empire, and later the Catholic church. Ishmael came to be defined as Islam and Muslims, even though that religion only came into being 1350 years ago. So any actual ethnic reference that may have applied to Edom, which disappeared as a kingdom before Rome rose across the Mediterranean, no longer held much value. But if you are asking who the people who lived in the Negev/Jordan/Saudi area around the gulf of Aqaba and north and east of it most resemble in linguistic and genetic terms, it would be their cousins to the southeast.September 19, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #810957
you mean Torah SheBa’al PehSeptember 19, 2011 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #810958Raphael KaufmanMember
Edom originally referred to a group of people, descended from Esav, who lived south of Judea (negev) called Idumians in Latin. They were conquered by the Hasmonean King John Hyrkanos (Yochanan Cohen Gadol) and forced to convert to Judaism (Yes, that’s right) Rome came to be associated with Edom by installing an Edomite king over Judea (Herod the Great). The Herodian kings were clients and vassals of Rome.September 19, 2011 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #810959
Raphael, that’s a very loose connection, hardly a reason for the term Galus Edom, with all its implications. Yitzchok’s Brocho to Eisav and the Nevua that was told to Rivka have no meaning according to your theory.
Besides, Hurdus wasn’t put in by the Romans. He was a royal servant that made a coup.September 19, 2011 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #810960
We are getting too detailed here. Regardless of what it ever meant, there are two basic assumptions made which remove all issues.
One: The early Romans were Edomim. Therefore, the entire Christian empire which came from that (after Rome conquered most of the world and the Roman emperor Constantine converted to Christianity) can legitimately be referred to as Edom.
Two: The early Moslems were Yishma’elim. Therefore we can assume that the entire Muslim empire that rose from there can be referred to as Yishmael.
What to do with Paras I admit is not entirely clear. I believe that they are close enough to Yishma’elim that Chazal would not have had a problem with combining the two for some purposes (and certainly nowadays when Yishma’el controls the lands that were then controlled by Paras). I cannot say that I have any strong enough proof for this though, so I really cannot respond if you disagree. I don’t think I’m wrong either though. Both seem fairly valid.September 20, 2011 3:31 am at 3:31 am #810961
The Maharal writes in Ner Mitzva that Malchus Yishmael is a continuation of Malchus Paras. When Sefarim categorize everyone into these two groups it is because all others follow one of these two. Therefore, they fall under the same category.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.