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@EEEE
Giving an unqualified and/or inexperienced instructor a teacher’s guide is not the solution. Just being able to stay 3 pages ahead of the class does not make one able to teach and explain the course material.I cannot give an accurate description of what I found lacking without access to the entire course.
What I saw wasted time’s irrelevant items in today’s world and did not address others.CTL I’ve commented here over the years about my trial of diagramming some sentences from the YWN coffee room. As a first generation American my parents felt that a command of American English was required for success in this country. English was not my parents second language, likely closer to the fifth. They accessed English via any number of programs (NGO) available to immigrants at the time.
Avira > Rav Belsky > Most overall should go to high school and not more; some should skip that, and others should even go to college.
what year was that? Probably the year that this corresponded to statistics of middle class in general. Similarly, R Feinstein reasoned hat one does not need college to live respectable/middle-class lifestyle.
Now, apply this to current day statistics, things are not that clear. Majority of middle class go to college, although for some of them it is not helpful or helpful just to claim credentials to do a job where high school only is required. But, overall, you can’t simply apply previous generation criteria without analysis.
Aaq, this was what he taught well into the 2010s, until he was niftar.
The needs have vastly changed, even in the last ten years. There are now many fast-track programs available to help people integrate into the work force in a variety of fields. This is aside from fast-tracked college programs where much of what was unnecessary is now skipped.
Automatic Heterim Gedolim gave until recently, certainly wouldn’t apply in todays world for a variety of reasons.
However, this conversation is about secular studies in high schools. Should there be, shouldn’t there be.
Dear Always,
Majority of middle class go to college. But the majority of the middle class’s money, does not come from a college education.
Analysis isn’t needed here. A bit of unbiased perspective demonstrates that college does not pay itself anymore. (If it ever did.) Unless hedonism or white collar cartels have a dollar value. For that, college still pays.
Avira, interesting – how would you explain unchanging position that was lhatlhila based on facts from earlier times? This is either (A) (understandable) conservatism – risk of going is higher than the reward (at least for the Rav, or from his point of view) or (B) some other factors have changed in parallel to the statistics of attendance. Did you ask or hear anything about it from the Rav?
n0,
I think you mean that when 50% of population goes to college, it is not the same as when 5% went. I totally agree – and that includes both level (most college classes are remedial middle school), but also in the effect on the students: most college professors do not aim to create anti-religious free-thinkers, they’d be happy that students can assimilate that correlation is not causation. Maybe, we should discuss “professional ed” from ivy-league. Maybe, just ask your Rav specific questions: is there a problem taking subway to the city, listening about Newton laws for 4 hours and then taking subway back, and then becoming eligible to have a well-paying job for life?Which step here leads to gehenom, other than for those who have a eshes chayil who is ready to support him. Although, I do not think it is kosher to obligate the wife for this support in the future, at least according to R Avigdor Miller who says kollel should be forever but ends when the wife says so. And even in this case, why shouldn’t the wife get a reasonable profession?
Aaq, i didn’t hear a reason from rav belsky, and i regret not asking him to explain his shitah. That very determined talmidim don’t need high school is pretty clear; they shouldn’t worry about parnosa, and they don’t need English to not waste time or be more disciplined; I’ve yet to hear another justification for English besides these two factors, which apply to the majority of talmidim.
If HS English is good for the majority because otherwise they’ll waste time and they’re unable to learn the entire day, and they need it for discipline, then changing norms in the working world wouldn’t make a difference. as for parnosa, even if it’s harder to find work without college, having a HS diploma makes it possible to go to college whenever the student wants, but I’ve yet to see any non yekkish rabbonim say that bochurim should be concerned with parnosa when they’re in their prime learning years, even now that it’s harder to get a parnosa without college. Day l’tzara beshaato. Even the yekkies after rav breuer no longer advocate for it, though they have no problem with those who do.
I agree that there are different approaches for different group of people. I do not begrudge that (most) Rabbis I learned from did not have significant secular education. Their productive contribution to am isroel and the world is self-evident. At the same time, I worry about multitudes who will end up being machmir in the mitzva of limud Torah, but meikel in supporting their family and leaving of tzedoka or non-Jewish support without any apparent reason.
Beshaato seems like a questionable approach v. chacham eynav berosho. Father’s obligation is to teach a son a profession so that he does not become a bandit. Are you saying, that the (grand)father’s obligation starts after kollel?!
Also, I wonder how universal these rules are. I heard from one father maybe 20 years ago whose son was in an anti-college charedi yeshiva in Israel. The son asked rosh yeshiva in private and the RY had no problem with studying computer science
AAQ “Maybe, just ask your Rav specific questions: is there a problem taking subway to the city, listening about Newton laws for 4 hours and then taking subway back, and then becoming eligible to have a well-paying job for life?”
1. If all they learned about was Newton law, great. That is not the case. Perhaps you are unaware what’s covered these days? (Any clue how left wing the curriculum has become? And if you haven’t checked it out in depth in the last five years, please do so before commenting:-)
2. At one point college had a very real affect on parnassah. That is no longer the case whatsoever. (What you mentioned about 50 percent now attending college is a part of it).So why ask?
Dear Always,
I am not afraid of any anti religious professor or culture. At that age one needs to be strong enough to own their values independent of what anyone else thinks.
My fair is that I would spend time on a bunch of business theory that is laughed at in the real world setting it is supposed to apply to.
Nom, we’re prohibited from exposing ourselves to negative influences, including hearing apikorsus, no matter how “strong” we think we are. It’s a clear violation of halacha to read or listen to apikorsus, unless one is on a very high madrega and is doing so to refute it.
Same with toeva culture; the rambams statements about influence are yaduah, and it’s just arrogant to say that one should just be strong; such people are usually the most influenced, but they’re unaware of it.
Definitely better to get a real world job and build up real skills:
Be a secretary for year
Gain some writing and phone skills
Take an excel and Quickbooks course
6 digit Parnasah options should now be available to you.Or stay in school for a third of your life, in debt, and still struggle to get a job. That’s todays world.
n0mesorah “I am not afraid of any anti religious professor or culture. At that age one needs to be strong enough to own their values independent of what anyone else thinks.”
Your not being afraid, and your hopes that teenagers are strong/independent enough is:
1. Not a heter.
2. Very Foolish.To be clear, my question is not about R Belsky being against college, I get that – but about lack of change over time. We discussed before R Moshe’s psak and his was clearly based on the fact that in his time, a median person did not go to college. And, as a bonus point to support that such osak is individual, it did not seem to be shayach to R’ Moshe’s daughter and S-I-L.
@EEEE
Secretary job? Not in today’s world. Employees are expected to be proficient on a keyboard and do their own typing/filing.
The CTL Law firm has offices in three states and we don’t employ a single secretary.
I’m the principal and have never had a secretary. I do have a paralegal who does some research and court filings, but that is a position that requires specific education and licensing in many states.
I also have an administrative assistant who answers and screens my calls, greets clients coming in to see me, settled them into the correct conference room or my office and might even bring coffee or water. In between she handles our banking and insurance.I know almost no professionals who have secretaries anymore. Occasionally, there will be a clerical worker who does some typing, billing, copying and filing, but that position does not have the skills and smarts a legal of medical secretary would have had 40+ years ago
4E > Perhaps you are unaware what’s covered these days
Funny, as I am sitting discussing a kid’s college homework on Stephen Gould’s view of separation between science and religion. We are discussing what Rabbi Sacks writes about the subject.
I am not disagreeing with you in general, though. You got to choose right majors hat focuses on tech and science, make sure kid has right environment – local, online, kehillah and intellectual support to deal with the issues as discussed above. Truly, the class above could have been avoided, but I thought this kid can benefit (with close supervision). You can use CLEPs, APs, transfers from simpler colleges to avoid possible problems. Go to Jewish colleges …. These are important details to consider, my point for now is that it is doable if done carefully.
disclaimer: we don’t recommend writing your own heterim
4E, it is a fair argument that college may not be necessary to build job skills. It is often true, but it is also true that it is often an easy path to a comfortable job. If someone has in mind a specific job not requiring college, whether in office or in plumbing, gezunte heig!
The long-term job trend is that remaining jobs are either in knowledge economy – design, analytics, running large businesses, or service jobs/gigs and everything in between is ether automated or outsourced to China. Not many jobs left in shoemaking, small stores, etc. I myself run a small business and it is difficult to compete with the big ones.
I agree with Avira about intentional exposure:
there is a difference between learning for parnosa and having accidental exposure that needs to be minimized and balanced; and intentionally getting into humanities and sitting with those people. The latter probably falls under R Soloveichik’s psak not to deal with Christians in theology, only in practical matters. So, same with Liberal religion.Avira > exposing ourselves to negative influences, including hearing apikorsus
Here is an interesting question. We see here and offline, that there are masses of Jews exposed to a lot of nonsense – whether it is covid, ukraine, or any other political topic. You can see that they somehow were readt pure propaganda. This is not A’Z but still pretty bad. How do these people get affected without going to college or watching TV? you tell me,
I treat this as brain training, so I don’t worry that the knowledge gained will not be applied in my life.
Paul, that’s fine for learning secular studies in the bathroom, but if you want to exercise your brain, learn a maaracha of reb Akiva eiger!
CTLAWYER
There are plenty of entry level jobs available where one can build skills.Are you disagreeing building those skills is more important than the general knowledge gained through college?
The educational system you grew up with is gone. In its place is a curriculum that has gone off the rails. It was always liberal, but today it’s become extreme left wing propaganda. (Again, if you haven’t seen the changes the last few years, please do so before responding).
AAQ
“Here is an interesting question”Fair question. But that doesn’t change what one should or shouldn’t be doing.
Aaq, you don’t need rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik to pasken that; intentional exposure is clearly outlined in shulchan aruch and poskim.
Rav belsky told me that a frum person studying psychology is allowed to do so and “not be gores” garbage that is part of the course – now i don’t know if this psak applies only to someone who sat and learned for years in yeshiva, and for instance, would not apply to a woman or younger bochur who was not matzliach in learning.
Dear Avira,
You create your own influences. If you are in places that affect you, that is your own fault. Either don’t be able to be affected, or don’t be there.
Dear Always,
If you truly worry about the multitudes being able to financially self sufficient, you would abhor going to college. There is not enough college level jobs for even a quarter of society.
And most of the world’s elite that went through college, have zero kosher dollars.
They went to college to become more successful criminals.
Dear Follow,
See the sources.
Nowadays, to get a really higher paying professional job it is not enough to have only gone to undergraduate school. Generally speaking, you need medical school, an MBA, law school or whatever to really get those higher paying 200K+ salary jobs.
@FollowMesorah
My reply was to the suggestion of skills to be learned working as a secretary and then achieving a 6 figure income. It was not a reply to entry level jobs.I may have gone to an Ivy League U some 50 years ago and have completed 3 additional degrees since (MBA, JD and DBA) the last of which was conferred 19 years ago, BUT I teach law as an adjunct in a law school, American History in a State U and this semester AP Government in a public high school.
I am aware of the changes and 1990s, 2000s and early 2010s saw great moves to the left, since 2015 there are many colleges and universities that have jettisoned the left and are far to the right. I don’t agree with extremism in education.
In terms of public policy I am socially Liberal and Fiscally Conservative.Mod > disclaimer: we don’t recommend writing your own heterim
sure. A specific psak I got from a hashuve rov I follow for decades already (and mentioned here before) that a psak on taking classes like “comparative religion” depends on the person’s emotional state and academic direction – some osur, some mutar and even recommended. And he paskened accordingly to the students he knew. I did not bother bringing each of our kids to the Rov, as he does not know them well, and I would be imposing on him a free psychological evaluation of each of them. So, I relied on the guidelines he gave. So far, everyone found these classes stimulating intellectually and no side effects observed. Again, done under direct Dr’s supervision.
these were your words and it was on this that the disclaimer was made. ‘Truly, the class above could have been avoided, but I thought this kid can benefit (with close supervision). ‘
Mod, thanks for the clarification. I should have mentioned the psak. Thanks for watching.
N0 > You create your own influences.
I agree with Avira here. The prisoner can not take himself out of the prison, or maybe even understand what he is up to, especially a young person coming from a sheltered environment. Previous century is a testament to that. For example, an American minhag of sending 18 y.o. to another side of the country, or even world, to learn wisdom from a random professor or a coed.
Marxist > it is not enough to have only gone to undergraduate school.
N0 > There is not enough college level jobs for even a quarter of society.I hope we all understand that there are different ways for different people. We are just trying to define a framework …
For grad school, a Jewish dilemma is how far you want to go in your professional pursuits… There is an option of health sciences rather than full blown med school – nursing/PT/OT/speech – especially for girls. Also, computer science/software/data analysis do not require law/med school dedication/expenses
n0 > And most of the world’s elite that went through college, have zero kosher dollars.
They went to college to become more successful criminals.This is a serious question as the father’s mitzva of giving a profession is exactly not to make kidd into listim. I feel opposite – that people who lack access to easy/clean professions and deal in business transactions, hustling, selling iphones online .. an educated person may indeed have capability to cheat, but a poor person might feel more need & pressure.
Specifically to Jews who have moral background, my personal observation is that a professional Yid is more reliable than an average professional (maybe because he is aware he is being watched), while an Yid hustling something is not always makes same impression,
Avira > Rav belsky told me that a frum person studying psychology is allowed to do so and “not be gores” garbage that is part of the course – now i don’t know if this psak applies only to someone who sat and learned for years in yeshiva,
This seems somewhat different from Rabbonim who davka insist that good learners stay learners.
R Twersky asked Steipler about medical school and Steipler suggested, if I recall correctly, learning a high-quality hevrusa, learning mussar (or chassidus?), and going to a mikva regularly.
But psychology may be on the riskier side, especially as it is a generic major taken by people with no specific plans, so curriculum is broad and shallow. This might make sense if going to a top college and planning for a PhD. Otherwise, going for one of the health sciences may be more practical and results in classes in audiology instead of “psychology of upper volta minorities”
“There is an option of health sciences rather than full blown med school – nursing/PT/OT/speech – especially for girls. Also, computer science/software/data analysis do not require law/med school dedication/expenses”
For the pre-health jobs, PT/OT/speech don’t make the 200K like doctors, dentists etc.
For computer science jobs, it depends but having a masters or Phd will make you so much more competitive in that field. Same thing with data analytics. I think that especially for frum people who generally have their parents helping them out the first few years of marriage a masters at a good university would be a good investment.
Aaq, it depended greatly on the individual; there were many people that rav belsky would allow to go to college, but didn’t encourage it – remember that for many people, college is a given, and they’re not interested in remaining in learning even though they might have experienced some success in yeshiva.
My point was that if someone had little experience learning and absorbing hashkofa, for reasons that range from laziness, to emotional issues, to learning disabilities…i don’t believe rav belskys “not being gores” heter would apply to them, because they’re very susceptible.
Let me clarify a bit about influences. People get so afraid of some fellow selling kefirah. Even though most people have zero interest in what s/he is saying, and there are many places to go to find the truth.
Yet, when a sensitive soul is bothered by the more indifferent attitudes around him, nobody thinks how he is being affected. For example, if you have a whole class that doesn’t wash, make berachos, or say birchas hamazon properly, at least one boy will stop keeping shabbos.
This is a problem being among non-Jews even without any hashkafah challenges. You have to know your weaknesses.
Dear Always,
Your feelings are not a factor here. The current economic set up does not accommodate working hard for your money. or even working to satisfy your consumer. Your work replaces ‘X’. It is used by ‘Y’. And gets funded by ‘Z’.
Marxist > For the pre-health jobs, PT/OT/speech don’t make the 200K like doctors, dentists etc.
but it achieves a respectable job that provides parnosa without getting involved in questionable business practices and daily davening devoted to tomorrow’s earnings.
> For computer science jobs, it depends but having a masters or Phd will make you so much more competitive in that field. Same thing with data analytics.
true. I have that, and it does open extra opportunities. But in software development and data analytics, one can get steady jobs even with less.
Avira > they’re not interested in remaining in learning even though they might have experienced some success in yeshiva.
When we discuss these issues, we sometimes look at the narrow swath of time – learning v. college. A better way is took at the “whole person”. I think it is Ner Isroel shitah that a college-educated person has a better environment for a life-long learning.
n0 > current economic set up does not accommodate working hard for your money.
A good point. We have a mitzva to be honest, etc. So, whatever the economic conditions are, we are to behave. You would not eat basar lavan because it s cheaper? so, you should not do bad work because it is more profitable.
I once heard a chasiddishe professional talking to college students. They opened up with “how do you keep kosher at work/keep shabbos/wear a hat/a beard” … He started with “the first thing you should know – you owe 8 hours of honest work daily to your employer”
n0 > whole class that doesn’t wash,
Most Americans wash, FYI 🙂 But there are also opposite cases – people who were not enthusiastic in Jewish environment, then become more self-aware and assertive when in different environment
It is true that to be an attorney law school is required, but today, for many fields, college as we knew it is not a necessity.
The percentage of those earning higher incomes may even be higher for those that don’t go to graduate school etc. (This of course is not including those who stay in learning).
Do you have any idea how many lawyers today are struggling to earn a decent parnasah? It’s far too many.
Extreme caution should be used before pushing something that might be harmful to the majority.
The. World. Has. Changed.
@Marxist
“Generally speaking, you need medical school, an MBA, law school or whatever to really get those higher paying 200K+ salary jobs.”
This was true in the second half of the 20th century.
Now? It may in fact be a limiting factor to have all those qualifications. I don’t have data, but percentage wise, I would wonder if one might to better without all the letters after their name.Too put the nail in the coffin…
In the wonderful American system, between taxes, government programs, and tuition one will not be in a better financial situation with an income range of about 100 to 250k.
So 1- We could argue that in today’s world college doesn’t even help one earn a higher income. 2- College almost certainly doesn’t help one earn more than the crucial 250k number. In fact it may hinder.@FollowMesorah
Yes there are many attorneys not making a good living. Bread and butter income items such as wills have been replaced by on line forms. TurboTax and similar software has decimated the accounting profession.Typical sold practioners starting out today will not make a great living. Frum attorneys can not easily put I. The 2000+ billable hours a year required of associates in top legal firms and can’t wine and fine clients having little hope of making partner.
Lastly it takes deep pockets to finance and build a personal injury practice. Years to trial and settlement while the attorney lays out all expenses for investigators, tests, depositions, filings and sometimes medical expenses. The collecting of a fee i(not recouping expenses) is generally contingent on winning, The CTL firm
Has never handled a PI or medical malpractice case for these reasons.My
bread and butter for decades has been trust administration (I get a percentage of annual income realized by the trusts and mange close to $100million in principal), family law/divorce/adoptions which get a healthy retainer up front, and intellectual property law representing big firms.
Three of my adult children in the firm practice criminal law in NY and MA. An attorney takes the full expected fee up front from the Dede before taking the case.
Lastly, real estate law. We do commercial real estate mostly, but when MIL was alive and active as a real estate broker we did all the closings for her office at fees of 1% of sales price. Today, discount lawyers advertise $300 closings. They don’t make a living and the client gets what they pay for.
The exception is our Massachusetts office, as in Massachusetts every lawyer passing the bar exam is granted a real estate license. This duality can make a huge difference in income potential of a lawyer starting out.
I would not be recommending my profession to
Most young frum people unless:
They are going to a top tier law school
They have entree to an established firm with a guaranteed livable income.
I expect grandchildren to enter the CTL firm in the next five years, but our hard work has made provision for their success.There are 7 attorneys in my daily minyan. I am the only one with children who are in the business. Most of the others have adult children in the medical field. Of the other 5, 4 are sole practitioners who experienced a good living but didn’t build a firm that could support additional partner level attorneys. The other is a top notch ligigator who is hired by top firms in CT and NY to represent civil clients in court.
For all of us who are seniors and made a good living there are hundreds who hung their shingle and lived in near poverty or left the practice of law after less than 10 years because they could not adequately support their families.
@CTLAWYER
Your honesty is helpful. Many from your generation have trouble admitting the education system and what it accomplishes has changed over the years.
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