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    Follow, maybe you misunderstood the trend: there are more people going to college now, so obviously average level and benefit is lower. And yes a good plumber is better off than a history major. Still, a computer engineer is better off than a plumber… and many people, like me, do not have a talent for plumbing.


    Follow, it is true that you lose various discounts on taxes and tuition at higher incomes, but you still get ahead. After Trump, we lost tax credits for children and this is most annoying when filling out taxes – as if we don’t deserve a break for the kids (at least a mental one). With schools, you don’t file pleading forms disclosing your taxes and vacations, but negotiate a discount directly. If you are used to business negotiations, you can survive that too.


    If you do the math, you so find that the difference after tuition breaks, government programs, and taxes is pretty small.

    This a strictly a math equation, not a conversation on whether it is better to live off of these benefits. All would afree it is better not to. However, to make the jump from 100k to 250k is not easy.

    Anyone care to spend the time doing the math for us on typical Lakewood Yeshivish home with two parents, 8 kids, nice sized home? One with an income of 100k the other 250k.


    Follow > If you do the math, you so find that the difference after tuition breaks,
    > strictly a math equation, not a conversation on whether it is better to live off of these benefits

    First, how can you have one without another? How can you compare feelings of someone who supports his family and then learns at the time/koach he has with someone who knows that other people work had to pay for his amenities and what he learns contradicts how he lives?

    2nd, from pragmatic prospective, you might discover actual price of things and make rational decisions. For example, you can choose a yeshiva based on the values they are teaching and not the breaks they give. You may figure out that the price of camp makes no sense, and send your kids to volunteer instead. You may find out that overpriced colleges make no sense when not get fin aid and send kids to places where training v cost makes sense. So, some difficult decisions but, hopefully, good lessons for kids.

    Are you as stingy with money toward people who aren’t in learning but can’t make ends meet? Your last few posts got me wondering.


    There are many things that would be different in an “ideal world” including all the “teachable lessons”.
    This world isn’t it.
    We are dealing with reality.
    Many families, klei kodesh or not as MOD pointed out, have trouble making above 250k. And again, a larger family needs to earn more than that to make ends meet without all the “benefits”. Feel free to take me up on the offer of doing the math for us. Giving you the first shot means you can even play around with the numbers to present them in as best a way to make your case.


    I have not read every post on this topic, but it seems that the quality of English in the posts I have read are among the worst I have ever seen on YWN.


    Seriously, Mod, I am not in a position to make a significant change in one person’s financial state, but I freely share any knowledge or job leads with anyone who needs it. It is generally person’s middos and attitudes that hold people behind, and I wish more Rabbis guided people like hat. I have a friend who complained about his low paying profession and asked me about direction he can take in computer programming. This was a pro-active conversation before he got married, I had hopes for him. He still complains that he has hard time paying tuition for the high school yeshiva. ..


    Even more seriously, Mod, and thanks for a good question – I do have more problems with people dishonoring Torah (in some aspects) comparing with people who do not know ho to read or count. We already established here that this is not my chiddush but a straight-forward Rambam who is using stronger words than me hat you would probably not allow here. That later poskim are lenient about it does not change the inner truth of this position.


    I just googled, healthy food per person is $3K/year based on a family of 4. So, $30K for a family of 10.
    healthcare say $1.5K/month =$20K
    clothing $20K/year
    transportation $6K /year
    taxes $5K
    could you add housing in your area?
    seems like 100K is tight but close enough, presuming 2nd spouse is taking care of schooling and cooking.


    I am unclear what you mean. You show a food cost so you seem to be assuming they don’t have food stamps, but you don’t show housing which means you are assuming they do have section 8.
    My apologies, I now have this conversation going in two threads. However, the way to do the calculation is to compare families receiving “benefits” to those that are not.
    What I am trying to show is that do to all the “benefits” provided to families a family with a lower income can at times be doing better than one with a higher income. This is a fact. So where is the motivation to work harder to earn less? Is it even possible for most families to break to the all important 250k number (which is around where one needs to get to break out of the perpetual cycle). Doubtful….


    I am asking you to add housing as you might know better what it is.

    But to address your concerns directly:
    1) this was discussed during Gingrich’s welfare reform: many people were better off on welfare in a short term, leading to multi-generational decline and trap. Need to look beyond today’s money to the future.

    2) We, as a community, do a lot of things that are not most convenient – not work a day a week, eat overpriced food, abstain from our wives for part of the month. See Beitza 25 that this is all training of our middah of savlanut. So, we could do the right thing here if we were motivated. Maybe not as perfect as other chumros, but at least some.

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