Enough is enough!

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  • #611788

    Feif Un
    Participant

    When I left the CR a while ago, it was because I was tired of the attacks against Modern Orthodoxy. I was convinced to come back and give it another try because most of the attacks came from Joseph, and I didn’t want him to feel like he had caused me to leave.

    In the past week or so, things have gotten worse than before. Whether the thread about a boy who didn’t want the MO life his parents live, or the current thread about how the RCA is siding with apikorsim, I’ve had enough.

    The RCA is an organization which contains many huge Rabbonim. How can someone dare to attack the organization? If the Moetzes did something you didn’t like, would you show the same disrespect? Obviously not!

    Modern Orthodox Judaism has many Rabbonim who are widely accepted as gedolim by everyone, including R’ Schachter, R’ Willig, and R’ Lichtenstein to name just a few. How can people demean a branch of Judaism that produces such giants?

    I won’t be part of a site that allows such chutzpah. I was right the first time. I’m leaving.

    About the CR I do shudder.

    #997775

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The rabbis you mention agree with us on this. Ask them.

    #997776

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And I don’t think an attack on the institution is an attack on the member rabbonim. It’s an attack on whomever was responsible for the release.

    #997777

    the-art-of-moi
    Participant

    Goodbye…

    Wishing you much hatzlachah in everything you do.

    #997778

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Feif – I have to tell you I know how you feel and I also can’t stand those discussions even IF there is halachik justification. But sometimes it is my defensiveness speaking because of my background and my assumption of theirs. I would hate to see you leave so upset, and the only advice I can give you is not new:

    1. Stop opening threads that upset you.

    2. I think there are other factions being attacked but it doesn’t stand out as much.

    3.(nobody is gonna like this)When the MO community makes halachically inappropriate decisions as an organization, it may be halachically permissible to say so, but most of the things the chareidi community is doing are unethical behaviors on a personal level and then it’s l”h.

    I would love to know how you feel about ketchup and CBT if you care to share.

    #997779

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m not sure why you think you think you don’t have to hold of the “daas Torah” of the yeshivish and chassidish gedolim, but we should hold of the “daas Torah” of the MO gedolim. That’s a double standard.

    Also, the RCA is not the same as the moetzes. For goodness’ sakes, Avi Weiss is a member! If the RCA’s decisions were made by Rabbis Schachter and Willig, I would be more careful in my criticism, but as it is, I don’t see an attack on the RCA as an attack on them.

    That thread with the MO teen was hijacked by MO posters trying to convince that boy that MO is the derech for him, when he clearly felt it wasn’t. The MO posters got very defensive.

    #997780

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    CBT is narishkeit

    #997781

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    PBA – who asked you!

    #997782

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I’d rather not, but I will if I have to

    #997783

    oomis
    Participant

    Feif Un – I personally hope you do not follow through to leaving this blog. The only way there is balance and discussion here, is when we have diverse viewpoints. I disagree with many things that are said in the CR, and I am certain many people have (GASP!) had the chutzpah (JK) to disagree with me, as well. But we all have something to contribute. Otherwise it is just a monologue.

    I consider myself MO machmir, but still MO, and I do not hold by Rabbi Weiss. Neither do I seek to criticize him, as it is not for me to do so. More learned minds than I will ever have, have said he has crossed certain religious boundaries. That is their assessment, and they have the right to express that assessment.

    Please re-consider. I will miss your posts, which most often, contain well-expressed and intelligent points. I agree that perhaps it is better to avoid certain issues, when we know in advance they will push our buttons.

    #997784

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Keep some of those threads coming, My personal favorite what is the proper Hashkafa for Mandela.

    Many people lurk on this site and read everything . I saw alot of commentary on that one

    #997785

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Feif Un,

    I am sorry that you feel so pained by posts here, and although I have participated in some of the threads you have mentioned and probably not on the side that you’d prefer, I hope that none of my words specifically have caused you offense. I know nothing about RCA press releases, so I did not comment on that aspect – I got involved in the discussion further down.

    I’d like to point something out that I have seen from your previous posts about the bias in the CR. You state that you are furious with the CR for allowing criticism and insults towards Modern Orthodox institutions because that is disrespectful, but you also attempt to hurl abuse towards Chassidish and Yeshivish institutions, and react with additional anger when those attempts are blocked by the moderators. It comes across to me, and hopefully this is not what you intend, that your problem isn’t with insulting rabbonim per say, but that this site allows your rabbonim to be insulted but not the rabbonim you want to insult. In other words, it’s less about the insulting itself and more about the inconsistent standard. If the site dropped all moderation and allowed any and all rabbonim to be insulted at whim, would you really be appeased?

    I agree with you that many posts on this site go beyond the line in terms of insulting Orthodox rabbis. However, I think that your efforts to counter the problem would be more successful if you held that such activity is wrong across the board. In other words, rather than trying to legalize all bashing, work towards making all bashing illegal. Why do you get so upset to see your rabbonim and institutions insulted, when a CR littered with your blocked and edited posts indicates that you would do the same thing to others’ rabbonim and institutions if allowed the opportunity?

    One final point – you are correct that sock puppeteering dramatically inflates the appearance of anti-MO sentiment on these boards. I think everyone focuses on “Joseph” so much that they don’t realize that there are other trolls and immature kids who exist and post here.

    #997786

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    DaasYochid: As a MO person, I must disagree with some of your points.

    Why do you think I don’t respect chareidi Rabbonim? While I may not follow what they say, it’s not due to a lack of respect. I have my own Rabbonim who I follow. Using a different Rav as your posek doesn’t indicate a lack of respect. Yet many chareidi people (including many posters here) show a constant lack of respect towards MO Rabbonim.

    Feif Un never said the RCA is the same as the Moetzes. All he said is that insulting the RCA insults many huge Rabbonim, just as insulting the Moetzes would do. You say that the “big names” are not involved in making decisions, but I can tell you that they are consulted on many things. The big difference between the RCA and Moetzes is that the RCA takes a bigger role in daily life than the Moetzes does. The fact remains that the RCA has many members who are huge Rabbonim, bigger than anyone here, and nobody here has the right to insult them.

    As for the thread with the teen, look again. Only one poster said the MO life was right for him, and that poster isn’t even MO. It was rebdoniel, who is open orthodox, and a big supporter of Avi Weiss. Please don’t insult MO by including YCT style people among us.

    MO posters (like myself) only got insulted when HaKatan took the thread as an opportunity to proclaim that MO is a mistaken hashkafah which goes against Judaism. Look through the thread again.

    Agreed

    #997787

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DaMoshe, my comments were directed at Feif Un, not you. I don’t paint everyone who calls themselves MO with the same brush. I like both of you, and often disagree with either or both of you, but I was referring to comments which he’s made.

    My point about the difference between the RCA and the Moetzes is that although RCA big talmidei chachomim are consulted, the public policies and statements of the RCA often don’t reflect their views, so an attack on a statement by the RCA is not an attack on their members who are talmidei chachomim. I believe the Moetzes is supposed to only consist of talmudei chachomim, so an attack on the Moetzes is worse.

    I will double check the MO teen thread.

    #997788

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Dy, you have to understand the difference between the RCA and Moetzes.

    The RCA tends to try to convince the laymen to their views and sometimes the lay people will force an issue on them (Like in the Abuse issue)

    The Moetzes does not allow any sort of democracy and basically tells its member Its daas torah to listen and obey and does not allow lay people any input on what might be important to them.

    You could never have a Kol Korea or an Asifa in more modern communities.

    #997789

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I double checked it. You, charlihall, and truthsharer had all joined rd in challenging his choice before Hakatan posted his anti Zionist diatribe.

    I assume that had the thread stayed open you would have offered a fuller apology for baselessly calling the OP a troll.

    #997790

    LevAryeh
    Member

    Oh NOOOO please don’t punish us! come back we NEEEEEED you omg

    #997791

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    DaasYochid: I beg to differ. My first post was to say I thought the thread was a troll job (which I still think). HaKatan posted calling MO a “mistaken ideology” before any of the posters you mentioned joined the thread. I never said I thought the OP should stay MO. All I said was that not all MO schools were as the OP described. Personally, I think every Jew needs to find the derech that works for them (as long as it stays within halachah). That might be MO, it might be yeshivish, it might be chassidish. All I posted was that the MO school my kids go to has none of the issues described by the OP.

    Charliehall posted that he should not feel a lack of respect for others who follow the MO derech, but that if he wants to switch to a derech that he feels brings him closer to Hashem, there’s nothing wrong with that!

    Truthsharer only wrote that he should bear in mind the “grass is greener” issue – that he will likely see issues on the yeshivish side as well.

    Nobody posted that the choice was wrong. There was simply advice given that he shouldn’t set himself up for disappointment.

    As for the troll comment, I still think it was a trolling job.

    Regarding your first post, I re-read it, and I apologize for the first part of my initial post. I thought I saw that MO don’t respect chareidi Rabbonim as a whole. My mistake. I’m sorry. I asked Feif Un about your point. He said that while he usually wouldn’t post attacks, he did it just to prove the point of the double standard here. When he (or others) complained about the attacks and insults allowed towards Modern Orthodoxy, the mods would justify why it was allowed. Yet when he started a thread using the exact same justification about a chareidi person, it was not allowed through. If there were no attacks on MO here, he would not have posted anything.

    As for the RCA, if there is an issue with a release, then specify, “The people who write the statement.” When you say “The RCA”, that includes all its members, including gedolim such as R’ Schachter and R’ Willig.

    Mods, Feif Un asked me to pass a message along to you. His last post was requesting that his name be blocked so he couldn’t return even if he was tempted to. Your response can be seen above. He asks again that you please block him, as he doesn’t want any temptation to return.

    I may be beating a dead horse but I would like to say that I had struggled with that post of his. Had it been what he intended, it would have gone through. Unfortunately, he mixed the MO vs. chareidi/yeshivish with a whole separate issue, and I knew he would misunderstand the deletion. When we are angry, it is hard to be objective and I personally have tried to approve and delete fairly regardless of my own opinions. – 29

    #997792

    “…there are other trolls and immature kids who exist and post here”

    (that’s the only line that attracted my attention)

    Anyone specific?

    #997793

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DaMoshe, I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but Hakatan’s initial post was in response to rd and was in context. Feif’s posts were made out of any context.

    Do you really expect the mods to approve posts whose intent is to stir the pot and show that the mods are hypocrites?

    Sorry, that’s not a double standard.

    And I strongly disagree with you about the OP in that thread being a troll.

    #997794

    SaysMe
    Member

    can’t say i read even 5 posts here or all of the OP but i get the gist. My take is that if something is loshon hora to post, it’s loshon hora to listen and by my logic, read. I do not open any threads that seem controversial or loshon hora or machlokes. It saves a lot of heartache, arguments, hard feelings, high blood pressure, etc etc. Just dont open them!

    #997795

    OURtorah
    Participant

    damoshe and feif- your clearly not here anymore, so I hope damoshe passes this onto you. I post often and like many of you know I grew up MO and have moved more to the right for my personal reasoning. I attempt here to bridge the ever growing gap between the two groups, cuz honestly we all love Hashem. That is all. It is quite simple, but it gets blown up real big. I dont want to label myself.

    A great Rabbi of a school in Toronto put out a poem about Moshaich called “Moshiachs hat”. If you haven’t read it, I suggest you do. All Hashem wants is a little bit of love between all of us. I belive that you leaving is a sign of giving up that love. Yes we have different ideals. And honestly, one or the other group might be really right and one might be really wrong. But NO ONE will get that through to one another in a situation as bad as it is today. We are so seperated, and the loshon hara that goes on behind everyones back about one group or the other. It kills me. Literally. That is why I love MO Jews and Chareidim and Chassidish Jews. Each one is speical and each one who woke up with morning still has a tafkid in this world. I think part of each of our tafkidim is to stop hating so much, and start loving.

    In this world we always focus so much on how different we all are. This is why no change ever occurs. I would like to focus on how similar we all are before I start pointing fingers at who is right and who is wrong. Is anyone here with me? If I’m alone, well Moshe was alone when he killed the Mitzri. Lehavdil I shud be as incredible as just one action of Moshe Rabbeinu, but he stood up for a Jew when no other Jew did. Lets learn from Him. He didnt say, oh this jew is charedi, I cannot help. He said, HASHEMS CHILD IS BEING HURT I MUST DO SOMETHING! COMMON EVERYONE! we are better than how we are!

    FEIF PLEASE COME BACK FOR THE SAKE OF AHAVAS CHINAM! Don’t just run away from the problem!!

    #997796

    yose
    Member
    #997797

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    OURTorah: Feif Un is not coming back. He even asked the mods to block his account so even if he was tempted, he wouldn’t be able to return (I’ll have to ask him if it was done yet).

    As for your point, I think you’re completely off here. True, we need more love among Jews. That’s one of the few things we can actually learn from Avi Weiss – how to love every Jew! But here in the CR, there is too much hatred. Hanging out here obviously led Feif Un to lower his opinion of other Jews instead of raising it. He’s better off gone if that’s the case.

    I, too, am guilty of this. When I read posts from chareidim bashing Modern Orthodoxy, it makes me think less of the chareidim. It’s something I need to work on.

    For Feif Un, it’s even more difficult. He went through some very rough times with yeshivish people, which he’s written about here. He told me a while ago I can write about it, so don’t think I’m writing about someone else without their knowledge. When people here post disgusting things, it just brings it all back for him. He once told me that there are times he regrets becoming frum again, just because he hears from so many people how being Modern Orthodox is against halachah, how being a Zionist is apikorsis, etc. He said, “If I’m doing wrong anyway, if I’m an apikores anyway, why should I bother trying? Let me go eat bacon, not keep Shabbos, etc. Let me enjoy myself while being an apikores!”

    It says that baalei teshuva get a special place where the biggest tzaddikim can’t get to. When someone demeans a baal teshuva and causes him to regret his path, I wonder what the punishment is? Is there a special place for that person as well, where the worst reshaim can’t get to? I don’t envy those people.

    DaasYochid, I told him you said you like him, and he said if you want to keep in touch, you have his email address. He said anyone who knows his email address is welcome to email him. If he doesn’t like you or what you have to say, he’ll just add you to his junk list 🙂

    slight edit

    #997798

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m not gonna sit here and take this. Feif un, from his very useername to the content of his posts is no innocent in this. He dishes it up just as bad as he gets it. Just he also whines about it.

    #997799

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I wasn’t on either of those threads simply because they are boring and predictable. However, since people mix concepts and complain accordingly, I just want to explain the diffference between a fight and Lashon Hara. In a fight, you are attacking the known ideology, or behavior, purely based on that ideology itself. Lashon Hara means revealing a different picture than what is assumed.

    Syag’s post illustrates my point.

    #997800

    yose
    Member

    Popa: Not to mention that Feif has a blog for five years which has the specific purpose (including its very name!) of attacking Chareidim. Virtually every post of his for years has served that purpose for him.

    #997802

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Okay – if this is going to turn into a feif bash while he isn’t even here, then we should all leave.

    He is probably seeing all of this and can respond if he wishes either himself or through DaMoshe.

    #997804

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Little Froggie,

    Anyone specific?

    No worries, trolls and immature children are mammals, not amphibians. 🙂

    #997806

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    and you consider that justification? That’s pretty lame.

    Your point was that he is not here. You are wrong because he is here. That clear enough?

    #997808

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Okay – if this is going to turn into a feif bash while he isn’t even here, then we should all leave.

    Life doesn’t work like that. Feif came here to bash us, then disappears so that we’ll feel guilty for responding, but relays messages through his friend anyway.

    lol

    Feif: Maybe you can respond through your blog. Maybe title the post “YWN chareidim kill little babies”

    #997809

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaMoshe,

    He once told me that there are times he regrets becoming frum again, just because he hears from so many people how being Modern Orthodox is against halachah, how being a Zionist is apikorsis, etc. He said, “If I’m doing wrong anyway, if I’m an apikores anyway, why should I bother trying?

    In this world, there is nothing that anyone can do that someone else won’t disagree with. If a person has explored the options and made a choice, why favor the opinions of those who disagree with that choice instead of associating with those who would make the same choice? There are billions of Christians and Muslims who think we are all wrong about our religion; many of them believe we are going to burn in the afterlife because of it. Should I abandon Judaism because they say this to me?

    If you are MO, Hareidim will disagree with you. If you are Hareidi, MO will disagree with you. If you became Chabad, Satmar would disagree with you. If you became Satmar, Breslov would disagree with you. I have heard religious Zionists insinuate that Jews who do not say hallel on Yom Yerushalayim may potentially face consequences after 120 because they did not appreciate Hashem’s miracles performed for them. I have heard others state that Jews not living in eretz Yisroel will have a diminished status when Moshiach comes and may not be allowed into the land at all because they didn’t appreciate it. Should non-Zionist Hareidim stop being frum because this was said about them?

    My point is, serve Hashem with all of your heart, all of your soul, and all of your strength. That’s the best any human can hope to do, and Hashem is far more gracious and compassionate than humans.

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