February 14, 2021 11:20 am at 11:20 am #1947786
America was founded on the foundation of equality. Equality is what drives so many immigrants to flee their own country, for America. Because equality gives everyone an equal opportunity so succeed. Now democrats want to transition from equality, to equity. Looks the same, sounds the same, but is the difference between freedom, and infringement. And no, you cant have equality, if you have equity. If you are going to ensure an equal outcome, in any given subject, that inherently means some have denied an equal opportunity, to somebody, somewhere. Not to C”vs say that our current form of equality, with the type of government that Republicans fight for, is an exact copy of what a Torah driven government would look like, but the ideas and principles are far more aligned than the type of government Democrats are pushing for. Gosh, just look at the Soviet unions Equity driven government, 50 years ago. I understand thats not exactly what democrats are currently advocating for, but do we really want to head in that direction?February 14, 2021 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #1948029Reb EliezerParticipant
I don’t agree. The Republicans believe in sink or swim. People are thrown in the water and expected to swim without being taught how. Some people do not have the same opportunities inheriting milliions like Trump or influece by going to Yale like George W. Bush. They need to be taught to swim by job training and some goverment aid, growing tbe economy by increasing demand which will be paid back in taxes through one’s lifetime. The Trump tax cuts put us in debt and did not substantially grow the economy.February 14, 2021 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1948035jackkParticipant
I read Biden’s Executive Order On Advancing Racial Equity and Support for Underserved Communities Through the Federal Government and it makes a lot of sense.
I don’t understand the vociferous antagonizem against it.
I chalk it up to the Trump supporters having to find any small thing to use to trash him. Similar to making a big deal of the press secretary’s non answer about Israel and SA.February 14, 2021 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1948038Amil ZolaParticipant
jackk I seriously doubt that these folks have read the EO. My guess is like the majority of our citizens they depend on their talking heads to give them a filtered understanding of same.
For the OP that started this thread, our nation wasn’t established on ‘equality’. If it was women and POC would not be able to vote. (Just one very important point.) Perhaps you tell us what you think equality means.February 14, 2021 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1948039👑RebYidd23Participant
This entire “equality vs equity” discussion is based on newly made up definitions of those words.February 14, 2021 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1948087
Can Jews apply for our equity? We were probably the only minority in Christian countries for about 1500 years.February 14, 2021 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1948088
>> I read Biden’s Executive Order
It start nicely, defining equity as ” consistent and systematic fair, just, and impartial treatment of all individuals, including individuals who belong to underserved communities that have been denied such treatment,”. Who can be against “impartial treatment”?!
next – “agencies shall consult with members of communities that have been historically underrepresented in the Federal Government”. So, here is the test for equal outcome, rather than equal opportunity.
next – Many Federal datasets are not disaggregated by race, ethnicity, gender, disability, income, veteran status, or other key demographic variables. we will all be marked up by reporting, I presume, our races, ethnicity, sexual preferences …
What does Gemora say about equity? What comes to my mind is how do we monitor several farmers along a river to ensure “equity”. The answer is that we do not – we let the first farmer along the river to possibly use more water “le derech shalom”. Maybe there is more discussion there…But at minimum this identifies potential danger of pursuing equity – inevitable fights for more or less equity (hope this word is still allowed!).
As Exhibit A, currently any policy streamlining vaccination is attacked as potentially inequitable. Statnews (sic!) counts percentage of vaccinated in rich and poor, black and white counties, not even bothering to weight by population age. Ein ledavar sof.February 14, 2021 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1948134
Reb e, jackk yea, the general idea of helping everyone out is great and all, but what exactly is biden trying to accomplish that previous Democrat administrations haven’t? The ever vague “addressing systemic inequality…” Yada yada….the problem is no democrat has the guts to get up there and address the real problem facing POC. Culture. Not some sort of systemic racism. Name the “racist law” that is holding them back.
Ami zola” For the OP that started this thread, our nation wasn’t established on ‘equality’. If it was women and POC would not be able to vote. (Just one very important point.) Perhaps you tell us what you think equality means.”-this comment is ridiculous for the same reason Reb e pointed out in his thread https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lindsey-grahams-stupid-argument Yes, equality, for everyone that was considered a citizen at the time…February 14, 2021 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1948144
“America was founded on the foundation of equality.”
It absolutely was NOT. Black people remained mostly enslaved and the majority of Founding Fathers owned Black people. (Some would free them.) Jews were second class citizens in many states, unable to build synagogues, and in the case of Maryland, vote or hold public office. Anti-Catholic bigotry was rampant, even making it into the Declaration of Independence. Suspected heretical Christians would be persecuted in part of the US well into the 1810s. And of course women could not vote and were limited even in signing contracts. (Heretics would be elected both President and Vice President in 1824, the last official Established Church ended in 1833, slavery ended in 1865, women slowly became able to vote between 1869 and 1920, and civil rights laws offered some legal protection starting in the 1960s, but we still don’t have a fully egalitarian society.)February 14, 2021 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1948148
“the real problem facing POC. Culture.”
People used to utter simiar garbage against Jews.February 14, 2021 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1948147
“we let the first farmer along the river to possibly use more water”
Interestingly that is the law nowhere in the US. In the East, upstream users cannot damage the interest of downstream users. (Not usually an issue because there are not general water shortages.) In the west, however, water is an owned commodity and water rights are separate from other property rigths. You may be stealing someone else’s property if you eat a snowball made from newfallen snow!February 14, 2021 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #1948165HealthParticipant
AlwaysAsk -“It start nicely, defining equity as ” consistent and systematic fair, just, and impartial treatment of all individuals, including individuals who belong to underserved communities that have been denied such treatment,”. Who can be against “impartial treatment”?!”
Yes, just another Affirmative Action cloaked in feel good, but not doing any any good!February 14, 2021 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #1948202
Charlie, in response to your post #1948144, read my post #1948134, perhaps you responded b4 my post was put up.
As for post #1948148, I don’t know who said that about who, but that doesn’t counter my argument. It’s comment sense. Around 75% of black children being born out of wedlock, it’s no mystery as to why they don’t experience success at the same rate as whites. Name the racist law that’s holding them back, charlie, name it. I wish this issue would be addressed instead of Democrats handing them the victim card; it’s just so counterproductive.February 15, 2021 6:01 am at 6:01 am #1948209
>> [river] Interestingly that is the law nowhere in the US
I learned this sugya very superficially, maybe others can contribute and we can understand equity in halakha. This issue will be pushed at us, whether we want it or not.
Re: Health, I think this is more aggressive than AA. This will now be measured systematically. there is now lively discussion in liberal media about every Biden’s department and whether there are enough people of each sub-class at every level. If this continue, I think Biden will just quit.February 15, 2021 6:02 am at 6:02 am #1948214HealthParticipant
TVOP -“I wish this issue would be addressed instead of Democrats handing them the victim card; it’s just so counterproductive.”
There is No issue that has to do with White people.
That’s your mistake – it’s not counterproductive, because they need groups to be Victims.
The DemonCrats have no theories how to improve this country.
That’s why they loved to Attack Trump, because he gave them a lot of fodder!
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