October 22, 2018 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #1608528
How does the dating system in Eretz Yisroel favorably compare to the American dating system? In Eretz Yisroel the guy and gal meet at a mutually agreed location whereas in America they follow the practice adopted from the goyim of the guy coming to pickup the girl.October 22, 2018 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1608627
Joseph: And what about in Europe where the boy traveled to the girls town?October 22, 2018 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1608674
“In Eretz Yisroel the guy and gal meet at a mutually agreed location whereas in America they follow the practice adopted from the goyim of the guy coming to pickup the girl.”
Yet another reason to live in E”Y instead of shmutz la’aretz.October 22, 2018 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1608650
The tradition of the guy picking up the girl is because it’s dangerous/unseemly for a girl to have to walk alone after dark.October 22, 2018 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1608660
Joseph why is one more goyish than the other? Both are accepted cultural norms and both aren’t the way yidden married (no dating) in the time of chazal.October 22, 2018 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1608637
What did they do in Morocco?October 22, 2018 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1608677
Many people pick up or drop of the girl if the guy has a car.
Most people here do not so therefore…busses.
Trust me, I’d rather get in a car than have to get on the same bus as my date back home and awkwardly try and figure out if we should sit near each other, or not, and if so worry about people looking at us.October 22, 2018 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1608656
Joey’s awareness of dating protocols seem to be on par with his rather limited social skills on other matters. Having the boy pick up the girl is NOT a goiyeshe custom but quite common historically across all ethnic groups. In many cases the guy was older than the girl and her parents wanted to meet him. Also, in high schools, the boy typically gets his driver’s license sooner so it makes sense. Finally, and probably most antithetical to Joey is the notion of the guy being a “gentleman”….a thoroughly goiyeshe concept.
In reality, it increasingly works BOTH ways in EY and here in the U.S., espeically as more frum young women join the workforce. sometimes pick=up and sometimes just meet after work at some mutually convenient location.October 22, 2018 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1608728
How is the system in Eretz Yisroel any less “adopted from the goyim” than the system in America?October 22, 2018 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1608738
What an odd question from someone who has called our generation “sinful” for not universally adopting Beshow dating, which takes place in the girl’s home.October 22, 2018 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1609275
iac: That sounds like a beshow.
takah: I take it your family follows the aforementioned way it’s done in Eretz Yisroel.
RY23: Why/how so?
CS: The American way is a pretty close copy of the traditional goyish way of dating.
Shopping: In America, unlike Eretz Yisroel, if the guy doesn’t have a car then he’ll rent a car for the date or otherwise procure a car specially for the date.
GH: The way it’s done in America is relatively new to the frum community. There aren’t any historical precedents for it in the frum community over a hundred years ago.
Meno: How might you think that the system in Eretz Yisroel *is* in any way adopted from the goyim?
Phil: That’s false. I’ve never said that or anything resembling that.October 22, 2018 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1609290
Joseph, a vague answer wouldn’t give you enough information, and a detailed answer is not appropriate for this board.October 22, 2018 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1609299
“Phil: That’s false. I’ve never said that or anything resembling that.”
You sure did; on 8/7/17:
Sima commented at 2:17pm:
“Joseph and Yekke2 are both right so maybe the Chassidish way is better – just meet in the parents or the shadchan’s home. No deciding where to go etc and the girl is not expected to arrive as though she is a film star.”
to which Joseph replied at 2:56pm:
“Of course this isn’t ideal. But I’m dealing with the metzius of our weak, sinful, generation. Ideally, of course, we should change how Sima, above, in her comment rightfully suggested. But until we reach that madreiga (may it be very soon) we need to deal with the facts on the ground that the non-Chasidish and super-Yeshivish oilem deals with this.”
The best comment on that thread by far was from mylogic37:
“Joseph, I hope you are kidding and just trolling. If not you seriously need help.”
to which the mods replied:
“You must be new here. Welcome”
Joe, please try to keep better track of your offensive, judgmental comments from now on, okay?October 23, 2018 12:23 am at 12:23 am #1609331
RY23: I’d still like to hear your short version, please.
Phil: False, again. Sima suggested the Chasidish system is better. I replied that it is ideal but realistically we need to deal with the fact that most people don’t use that shidduch system. At no point had I suggested it sinful, as you falsely attributed, to not use that system.October 23, 2018 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1609350
Joseph, I highly doubt that by goyim today, the guy comes to the girl’s home, sits and talks with her parents, and then takes her out. They probably just arrange to meet at a bar or cafe or whatever.
The differences I think stem from practical reasons.
In E”Y the couple either meets in some lobby or by someone else’s apt- perhaps grandparents or the shadchan, somewhere neutral where nosy siblings and neighbors aren’t around. Most of the boys do not drive (many yeshivas do not let bochurim get licenses) and as shopping mentioned, it is awkward to travel together by public transportation, so the couple travels separately to the meeting place. It is much safer for a girl to travel around by herself at night than in the US- she doesn’t have to worry about being alone on a subway dressed up with jewelry. Also, it would be weird for the guy to come to her place- people live very close together and it would be impossible to keep anything private.
What they miss out on is the parent meeting the boy at the date. To get around this, the father will sometimes arrange a pre-date to meet the boy first (not at home) and the mother will do the same with the girl, or at least arrange to see her at some public event like a chasuna.October 23, 2018 6:10 am at 6:10 am #1609353
Winnie: Notice my above comment referencing “the traditional goyish way of dating.” Meaning, when the American yeshivish dating system was inaugurated in America, decent goyim would typically go to the girl’s home to pick her up for the date.
What you described about Israeli yeshivish dates meeting by someone else’s apartment (grandparents, shadchan, etc.) sounds closer to the Chasidish dating system than to the American yeshivish dating system.October 23, 2018 6:12 am at 6:12 am #1609338
“But I’m dealing with the metzius of our weak, sinful, generation”
Your own words.October 23, 2018 6:17 am at 6:17 am #1609341
When walking on the street at night, women risk being harmed by strange, bad men who roam the streets after dark.October 23, 2018 8:51 am at 8:51 am #1609428
Ok here you go:
The American system is terrible because it shows respect towards women, whereas women are supposed to respect men, not the other way around.
Happy now?October 23, 2018 9:44 am at 9:44 am #1609471
Meno, is it your contention that the Yidden in Eretz Yisroel today (let alone all the doros and doros of Yidden before America) don’t respect women?October 23, 2018 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1609515
No and that’s one reason why picking up the girl on the date (especially with safety reasons involved) seems very much in line with Jewish values and not goyishe values that have crept in. (Another reason is that the man is playing the leader/ protector, also in line with Jewish values).October 23, 2018 11:32 am at 11:32 am #1609566
“In Eretz Yisroel the guy and gal meet at a mutually agreed location whereas in America they follow the practice adopted from the goyim of the guy coming to pickup the girl.”
As always Joseph, you have it backwards.
A quick poll in my office (7 people 5 Female 2 male)
all agreed of the 2 descriptions the E”Y system was far more similar to how they and/or those they know) dateOctober 23, 2018 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1609591
No, Joseph. You’re misunderstanding me.
The point I’m trying to make is that the Yidden in Eretz Yisroel are following Halacha by not allowing a woman to leave the house without explicit permission from a man.October 23, 2018 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #1609597
ubiq: You’re Chasidish and this thread is dealing with the Yeshivish system.October 23, 2018 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1609563
“Meno, is it your contention that the Yidden in Eretz Yisroel today (let alone all the doros and doros of Yidden before America) don’t respect women?”
I think Meno’s contention might be that you don’t respect women; your hostility and disdain for them oozes forth every time you troll. Happy now?October 23, 2018 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1609868
i hated the nyc style of schlepping to the girl and then wining and dining her. It’s definitely goyish. It spoils them. Go ahead and argue with me with all the rude comments.October 23, 2018 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1609879
Women are people.October 23, 2018 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1609880
There are some real misconceptions about the goyische world and dating expressed in this thread.
Since I live in small town CT I have observed much of what goes on in both goyische and not frum situations,
#1 Most single frum girls live at home until married. Thus the boy is expected to come to the house meet the parents and get parental approval before the girl goes out the door.
#2 In the non-frum and goyische world girls marry later and are generally living on their own before dating for marriage. No need for the boy to come to the home and get parental approval to go out.
#3 Non-frum and high school girls date in High School (or Junior High) for fun, not marriage. These girls live at home. The boys do come to the house and are subjected to the parents before the girls go out. I have seen neighbors inspecting not only the boy, but his vehicle…is it safe enough to transport their precious daughter?
Two of my daughters were either living at home or with a relative while in college when dating. The boys all had to come to the house and pass muster with Mrs. CTL and myself or my Sister In Law and her husband. The third daughter was introduced to her chasson by a law school professor. Both young people were living in graduate housing at the university. Neither kept a car in the city while in school. They would meet at the law library and go out from there. Neither would have permitted the other in their apartment while single. They had met in class, and the professor who suggested the shidduch was known to me and contacted me in advance for permission. I trusted the professor’s judgment. It was right, they dated, married, both are in my law practice and they have given us a grandson this year.October 23, 2018 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1609882
Ancient Jewish custom:
So what to do with the Mishneh in Taanis about girls dancing in the fields so that boys could gaze at them, and choose a bride. On Yom Kippur and Tu B’shvat no less.
In fact, the girls opened the conversation.. ( See Mishneh, Perek 4)
Now there’s a Jewish minhag.October 23, 2018 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1609883
I’ve no idea about Israeli dating but I’ve observed the dating models of my non Jewish friends children and have had many a conversation about it. In most cases non Jewish women who are interested in dating and marriage are out in the work force and living independent of their parents. When dates occur after work hours many times these people will meet at the movie theater or the restaurant they have chosen (or golf course or tennis court etc) . An initial date may just be a meet up at a bookstore or a coffee shop. Parents typically don’t meet these ‘dates’ unless some kind of a relationship develops.October 23, 2018 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1609897
CTL and Amil: Permit me please to repeat what I wrote above to Winnie:
Notice my above comment referencing “the *traditional* goyish way of dating.” Meaning, when the American yeshivish dating system was inaugurated in America, decent goyim would typically go to the girl’s home to pick her up for the date.
I am aware that the goyim have degenerated since then, as you pointed out, where today that system has mostly gone into the trash and replacing it is a system where they date for fun (as you mentioned) and worse rather than for marriage with the parents mostly having been kicked out of the equation.October 23, 2018 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #1609908
Joseph, so you mean going back to the 1950’s version of non Jewish dating? What year did things begin to degenerate for non Jews? You seem to have an idealized history/vision of a community you have very little contact with. IRRC non Jewish members of my extended family dating as I represented in my previous post in the 50’s.October 23, 2018 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1609939
So are you saying we should do away with the black hats and shtreimel because goyim wore themOctober 24, 2018 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1609943
Joseph, I’m truly curious about where you got these stereotypes of nonJewish dating?October 24, 2018 1:04 am at 1:04 am #1609957
Funny that our resident troll shares a simplistic vision of American family and social life at its zenith in the 1950s crica Leave it to Beaver world where women stayed at home, men labored in factories making “hard stuff” like steel , where virtually all your neighbors were white and gays were still hiding in the closet. In those “good ole days” the boys would all come to the girls’ house for a parental exorcism before being allowed out of the house with the parent’s daughter. As the theme song of Archie Bunker TV show went. Those were the days when “men were men”….those were the days.October 24, 2018 7:36 am at 7:36 am #1610031
Joseph’s concept of Non-Jewish dating in America before ‘degeneration’ (a despicable hate filled term) is rooted in pre WWII life. In WWII when 17 million American Men were off trying to Defeat the Axis young single women were encouraged to move to the city and work in war industry, living away from family and getting a higher education.
This dynamic changed American society forever, ended the war sooner and in the Allies favor and saved untold Yidden from death.
He should stop being so derogatory.October 24, 2018 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1610046
Eretz Yisrael dating: dd/mm/yy
American dating: mm/dd/yy
😂🤣 thanks, I needed that -29October 24, 2018 9:26 am at 9:26 am #1610054
Ctl; Why do you feel spiritual degeneration is a despicable hate filled term?October 24, 2018 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1610191
Joseph did NOT write ‘spiritual’ degeneration! He said the goyim have degenerated. That is spewing hate. I know many ‘spiritual’
My small town of about 35,000 has more than 12 churches (in addition to shuls and Chabad) 5 parochial schools, 2 Catholic High Schools, an Evangelical K-12 school, a Bishopric and seminary. It is mostly single family homes, most people know or recognize each other and boys still come to the parents house to pick up girl for a date.
People recognize each other’s cars (all of ours have vanity plates) and a young person driving or acting irresponsibly will elicit a call to the parents or a balling out by neighbors. It is common for families to be third or fourth generation to live here and for couples to have been childhood schoolmates to marry in their 20s or early 30s after college and starting a career.
Just as the Hareidi community is growing, so too is the observant Xtian community….albeit not in the large sinful cities such as NY.October 24, 2018 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1610328
CTLAWYER, from a racist point of view, it is simple truth. Joseph is openly racist.October 24, 2018 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1610349
Is Jewish supremacism, the belief that being Jewish is superior to not being Jewish, racist? We know we’re chosen by G-d; there can be nothing superior to being chosen by G-d compared to not being so chosen.October 24, 2018 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1610370
#1 You are NOT an ‘alumni’…………alumni is plural. You are an alumnus, a male who attended Torah Vadaath.
Yes, the belief that Jews are superior to other groups is racist. That does not mean the theory is false. Proclaiming it publicly among non-Jews could subject you to attack and foster hatred of all Jews.
Even if one believes that Jews are G-d’s chosen people and superior to other nations, that does not mean that they have ‘degenerated’ as Joseph so hatefully posted.October 24, 2018 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1610377
Jewish supremacy as a topic was not mentioned before reply #1610349.October 24, 2018 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1610448
Mr. Katz, my English teacher of yore, sends you his regards. 🙂
What you’re saying is that the truth and stating the unembellished truth, can potentially constitute racism if the proferred theory is true but racist. If that’s so, then you’re defining racism as something that isn’t inherently bad. Such as citing being the chosen nation.
Racism as a topic was mentioned (by yourself) before the reply number you mentioned. @ctlawyer opined that supremacism is racism. Thus my comment in response to yours was on topic.
That being said, before comment #1610328 racism as a topic was not mentioned in this thread.October 25, 2018 8:05 am at 8:05 am #1610486
Racism is one reason people like Joseph miss the 50s.October 25, 2018 11:41 am at 11:41 am #1610668
Not everything that involves race is hateful.
In fact using the term racist to refer to Jews is not accurate, Jews are NOT a race, there are Caucasian, Asian, Black Jews that I know. Jews are a people, were once a nation and adhere in different degrees to a religion.
Claiming Supremacy is generally hateful speech. Show it in your actions, not in your words.October 25, 2018 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1610728
Would you consider the claim that a nation was chosen by G-d over all other nations to be racist?October 25, 2018 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #1610754
That definitely depends on whether that nation was chosen for its race. I consider it racist to believe a specific race to be superior or inferior.October 25, 2018 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1610762
That would still leave the fact of being the chosen nation as being xenophobic.October 25, 2018 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1611097
That’s still very different to the standard racism that I was referring to.
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