June 26, 2011 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #597643
My R”Y said that majority of bachurim in yeshiva would greatly benefit from seeing a therapist or psychologist. Does this mean that most people need to because they have serious issues?June 26, 2011 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #781080
Why don’t you ask your RY. It is HIS comment.June 26, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #781081
No, just in your yeshiva.
Hee hee. Just kidding. I assume it means that most people would greatly benefit. “Serious issues” has no definition.
If you’re thinking about it, I would say to go for it.June 26, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #781082
I would say most people would greatly benefit from seeing a Rov or RY.June 26, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #781083
I would say most people would greatly benefit from seeing a Rov or RY.
I don’t mean to say that people wouldn’t benefit from having a rav. But if you are relying on a rav for emotional support beyond what you would expect from a friend or mentor, I think you should rethink that. They simply do not have the training or expertise, and don’t even know when they are over their head.June 26, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #781084
And you think the therapist *will* let you know that he is over his head? Nope. At least not as long as you are paying him (or the insurance is.)June 26, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #781085
A Rov and RY doesn’t have training or expertise??June 26, 2011 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #781086
Your surprise is precisely what I’m talking about.June 26, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #781087
I’m not surprised. I’m incredulous at that comment.June 26, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #781088
Of course Rabbonim and R”Y’s have training.June 26, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #781089
What are therapists trained for?June 26, 2011 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #781090ShrekMember
a therapist can help a person who wants to become more self-aware. perhaps this is what the rosh yeshiva felt would be beneficial. it can be easier to change certain behaviors if you can get to the cause of them.June 26, 2011 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #781091am yisrael chaiParticipant
Everyone has baggage, as life in olam hazeh is not perfect.
As the baggage is dealt with, one becomes a healthier adult with the prospects of a healthier choice in a marriage partner & a healthier marriage.
This is way easier than dealing with baggage that has reared its ugly head during a marriage.June 26, 2011 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #781092basket of radishesParticipant
Life is Therapy enough.June 26, 2011 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #781093EzratHashemMember
When a RY, Rav, Rebbetzin, etc. will sit through typical therapy themselves 5-10 or more sessions, and STILL recommend it, then I would hear this seriously.June 26, 2011 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #781094
Ezrat: Sounds like you had a bad experience with therapy.
There are bad therapists out there, but I’d encourage you to give it another try with someone else.June 26, 2011 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #781095
There are good therapists, but I don’t think you can say most of them are good.June 26, 2011 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #781096
It is not fair to lump all into one group. To my understanding, Rav Avigdor Miller Z”L, who was looked upon and frequented by all types Litvish,Chassidish,Modern,Heimish, etc., did not approve of therapists. One should have a Rav as it says in Pirkei Avos. However, in many extreme cases the Rav who will recommend therapy will give his follower a name of someone he is familiar with. In many so called more modern kehillos, the Rav in addition to his semicha has to have a degree in such as psychology or social work. In addition, before hiring him(the Rav) , the Rebbitzen is interviewed too and that is why they usually have a great team and community.
In many yeshivos there is what is called a mashpia to help those who need someone to talk to.
One should not go to any therapist before checking them out and seeing what schooling they have/had.
Nefesh, which is an organization for orthodox therapists in psyche field lists many and they are rated as well. For example, we have a family friend whose daughter was secretly taken from her home. The daughter was over 18 so it could be said it was her choice. To make the story short, the therapist who the daughter was seeing and listened to one side only and recommended the escape. When we checked her out on Nefesh, her ratings were the lowest with schooling that the lowest IQ could do. In presenting this to someone who so called led the daughter to this so called shmerapist, the answer was “she was the cheapest.” The damage is done to a family who may never be reconciled on account of an uneducated therapist who too(when inquiring) has a dysfunctional family.June 26, 2011 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #781097abcd2Participant
Dear Shein:”Of course Rabbonim and R”Y’s have training.” I am sorry but while there have been great strides made, you are terribly misinformed.B)If you are seeing a rosh yeshiva for emotional family or mental health advice then make sure that person has all the time to see you as a therapist sees a client and is experienced in everything. A Rosh Yeshiva still has a Yeshiva to run and might not always be available or have expertise in every area. They are a Rosh Yeshiva and a Tzaddik not a therapist albeit many of them have tremendous life experience with various emotional and mental health issuesJune 26, 2011 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #781098tro11Member
Your surprise is precisely what I’m talking about.
🙂June 26, 2011 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #781099
To my understanding, Rav Avigdor Miller Z”L, who was looked upon and frequented by all types Litvish,Chassidish,Modern,Heimish, etc., did not approve of therapists.
I do not know anything of Rabbi Miller besides what is quoted on this website.
But I do not approve of anything I have seen quoted in his name.June 26, 2011 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #781100doodle jumpParticipant
I personally feel that most people can benefit from a number of therapy sessions. Life is so hectic and busy. We try to do so much and be there for so many people who count on us. Maybe 15 20 years ago it was considered taboo but not anymore. Every person must dedicate time for for him/her self so they can be functioning in a healthy mental state. Go for it.June 26, 2011 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #781101
There are many Rabbeim who are far more qualified than any therapist to treat emotional and psychological issues. In CC, for example, there are quite a few Rabbeim who specialize in dealing with peoples issues and have years and years of sucessful experience to back it up. (and almost everybody speaks to them!!)June 26, 2011 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #781102
@klach- would they speak to a women too? Or do they only speak to the boys in the yeshiva?June 27, 2011 12:00 am at 12:00 am #781103
not really – they have an achrayus to the yeshiva who is paying them a salary in part to render said services. However, Rav Henoch Leibowitz did have appointments with women sometimes.June 27, 2011 12:02 am at 12:02 am #781104
I agree 100% klach. The right rov is far far better than any therapist.June 27, 2011 12:05 am at 12:05 am #781105
Hey what was wrong with my last post?June 27, 2011 12:08 am at 12:08 am #781106
It looks fine to me.June 27, 2011 12:12 am at 12:12 am #781107
the one that got deleted – “daas Torah is a big plus or something to that extent”
I checked the deleted posts. It never went through at all; it wasn’t deleted. -95June 27, 2011 12:25 am at 12:25 am #781108
Klach: Tell me: Do these rabbis ever refer people to real therapists? They do? Why? Oh.
shein: Your ignorance is dangerous. To yourself.
Happiest: You don’t need these rabbis. If you aren’t happy with your therapist, you should find a new one. Ask around, it may take a few tries to get the right fit- you don’t always marry the first guy you meet either.June 27, 2011 12:27 am at 12:27 am #781109pascha bchochmaParticipant
I agree with that. Who wouldn’t benefit from having a person they can confide in and who can help them work on themselves?June 27, 2011 12:28 am at 12:28 am #781110
popa: When a rov refers one to a therapist that is okay. He knows when it is needed and can direct to an appropriate therapist. He also knows when a therapist is dangerous. But it is dangerous for one to refer himself to some therapist, who could for all you know be a dangerous clown.June 27, 2011 12:29 am at 12:29 am #781111
“Klach: Tell me: Do these rabbis ever refer people to real therapists? They do? Why? Oh.”
“Happiest: You don’t need these rabbis.”
These Rabbis are far more competent than any shrink.
Popa – maybe you would benefit greatly from speaking to one of these rabbis. . .June 27, 2011 12:30 am at 12:30 am #781112
Thanks klach. I definitely hear that they have an achrayus to the yeshiva!
@popa- I don’t have a therapist right now and am wary about going back to one but I am ok b”H, I will manage without one:)June 27, 2011 12:37 am at 12:37 am #781114
Klach: It seems I am much more knowledgeable about them (Rabbi T and Rabbi SY and Rabbi G) than you are. I happen to be quite familiar with them (brother has been there for 13 years, best friend has been there for 11). They do indeed refer many talmidim to therapists, I even know which therapists they refer to.
I also know that CC has a full time psychologist on staff, who also happens to be a serious talmid chochom. Yes, he is on staff, they pay him to stay.
sheini: My point is that if they are referring people to therapists, it shows they recognize that they are not experts and cannot handle real situations.
Also, of course one must be careful to go to a frum therapist who will not cause harm to their frumkeit. And it is a very fine idea to ask your rav for a referral.June 27, 2011 12:40 am at 12:40 am #781115aries2756Participant
Finding the right therapist and finding the right rave to help with a certain problem is the same. You have to search for the one that has the expertise in the field. Most Rabbonim are NOT trained. So lets not generalize on this issue.
Not every Rav has the knack, the patience, the knowledge or a real vested interested in Shalom Bayis. And when you get the wrong Rav involved it causes much more harm than good because all they do is quote halacha and not apply halacha to what is happening in life. In addition they tend to force couples to stay together no matter what, instead of really and truly listening to each side and helping each side. Only those truly immersed in the dinim of Shalom Bayis should be trusted with a precarious marriage.
The same goes for a therapist, if you need marriage counseling don’t go to a therapist that specializes in trauma. Search for the right individual and the help that you need according to whatever the issues are.June 27, 2011 12:43 am at 12:43 am #781116
Here is what I think. You have mentioned a bit about yourself on this forum.
I don’t know what sort of people you have been seeing, but I will tell you this. I know you may have been told that all your issues are hormonal and chemical, but you should be aware that there is no science to back that up.
Rather, research of the past several decades suggests that all mental issues are based on traumas in our past. I am no expert, but I think you would do yourself a good service if you would see a therapist who focuses on uncovering the reasons for the way you feel.
I am quite familiar with the rabbis being referred to here, (as I noted above), and the psychologists they refer to are all of this opinion.June 27, 2011 12:45 am at 12:45 am #781117
@klach- for real?!?!?!?June 27, 2011 12:49 am at 12:49 am #781118
The research keeps changing every decade or two.June 27, 2011 12:50 am at 12:50 am #781119
Sure!! I did it once already – now I’m a gilgul heheheheJune 27, 2011 12:51 am at 12:51 am #781120
@popa- interesting. I was under the impression (someone told me this, forgot who though) that if they would do a cat scan of my brain when I was deep in my mental health issues, before I was medicated, there would be some differences with my brain than with someone else who didn’t have these mental health issues brain.
What kind of traumas can you be talking about? I’m pretty sure that nothing traumatic has happened to me in my life, b”H. My parents are married… it’s an ok marriage. Yes, I’ll be the first to admit not amazing but definitely ok. We never had much money but I remember never being told no when it came to something that I needed… I’m wondering what other sort of trauma there could be in ones lifetime.
Thanks for answering btw.June 27, 2011 12:57 am at 12:57 am #781121mnsydudeMember
Coming from yeshiva the best therapist is either the RY or the menahel or rebbeJune 27, 2011 12:58 am at 12:58 am #781122
Certainly, one can see differences on a brain scan. But the question is which is the cause and which is the result. Does the issue cause the chemicals or do the chemicals cause the issue?
They also point to the fact that medication helps. Yet, we all know that tylenol helps a headache, but would anyone say that headaches are caused by deficiency of tylenol? Besides, the medications don’t help quite as much as we are promised, do they?
As far as traumas- not every trauma is so big. In fact, the big ones (losing parent, abuse) people usually get support for. It is the little things (parent having inflexible expectations, showing disappointment for normal failures) that are the most likely to be harmful.
I am posting a link to a speech I listened to about this. I hope the mods will let it through. It was presented at a Nefesh conference by a leading frum psychologist, and is based all on research journals. It is the one called: Chemical Imbalance or Meaningful Behavior?. http://drsorotzkin.com/audiolectures.htmlJune 27, 2011 12:58 am at 12:58 am #781123pascha bchochmaParticipant
klach: dangerous to joke about thatJune 27, 2011 1:03 am at 1:03 am #781124
Thanks popa- you’ve given me something to think about. I am going to listen to that speech right now, iy”H.
I really do wonder which came first- the chemical imbalance or the “issue”?! It’s definitely an interesting thing to think about.June 27, 2011 1:06 am at 1:06 am #781125
@klach- please don’t joke about something like that. I know many people who really do suffer with suicidal thoughts and they do not find it amusing at all.
Thanks:)June 27, 2011 10:11 am at 10:11 am #781126600 Kilo BearMember
People who suspect they have a chemical imbalance that causes behavioral issues should seek help from a qualified MD or DO who can prescribe the proper treatment for that physical illness.
Therapists – be careful. Some use all kinds of strange techniques that can damage sholom bayis, or kibud av voem etc. The worst will tell you to fry out, but that was more two or three generations ago when the koifer Sigmund Fraud’s dubious ideas held more sway.
I suspect there are rabbonim who can do just as much for you as a therapist. The difference is that they may not have time to give you the same attention as someone gives you when you are paying $150 an hour.
The best solution if you really feel you need a professional may be someone like one of the Twerskys (one is definitely named R’ Ben-Zion and the other may be R’ Mordechai) in Brooklyn who is both a rov and a therapist.June 27, 2011 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #781127
popa, I listened to the speech. It was very interesting! I now have many questions to ask Dr Sorotzkin and will try to contact him further.
Thanks!!June 27, 2011 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #781129hanibParticipant
pba – i completely agree, but was always too scared to say anything on this site – seems like it is so not pc to think this way.June 27, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #781130ShrekMember
if you want/need to see a therapist you need to know if the person is good at what they do, and not just some person with a degree.
you also need to know if the therapist has expertise in the problem that you are experiencing. Depression, OCD, domestic abuse, trauma, eating disorders, anxiety….there are lots of different mental health issues out there, and not all therapists have the necessary training to deal with each and every one.
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