Explaining to girls that only boys light the Chanukah Menorah

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  • #1430121

    slominer
    Participant

    How can it best be explained to daughters the reason why only their brothers light the Chanukah Menorah?

    #1430173

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    I consider myself Chareidi and my daughters light menorah.

    #1430171

    catch yourself
    Participant

    It shouldn’t be explained. The girls should light, שאף הן היו באותו הנס. I encourage my (above Bas Mitzvah age) daughter to light (but I don’t force her to). [My younger daughters need no encouragement.]

    My wife does not light, mostly because her mother doesn’t either. My father in law, who is a תלמיד חכם, explained this with the rule of אשתו כגופו. I don’t exactly understand the application of that concept here, but I went along with his פסק.

    #1430169

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    all girls until they’re married can light with a bracha

    #1430167

    Moshe1994
    Participant

    Women are allowed to light a Menorah. In fact, they should be encouraged to do so.

    #1430148

    kollelman
    Participant

    Like all other time-based Mitzvos, women are not obligated (unless they were also saved/part of the miracle).

    As was explained to me by my rebbeim over the years:
    Men generally require “action” in order to connect to Hashem, since men are action/goal-based beings. Women don’t need these activities to feel the connection to Hashem, since they are emotional beings, and can maintain a high-level emotional connection to Hashem without physical activity. Men can be considered somewhat lacking, since they require much effort to attain levels that women can very easily obtain.

    #1430170

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    the Sulchan Aruch (written about 460 years after Rashi’s death).

    שולחן ערוך אורח חיים הלכות חנוכה סימן תרעה סעיף ג

    אשה מדלקת נר חנוכה, שאף היא חייבת בה

    A women should light Chanunka lecht because the neis Chanukah was for them as well. While some try to assert that a married-woman is yotzeh from her husband lighting the candles and should simply forego working while he does so, ignorance abounds on a number of issues .

    So there you have it. Women should light…because they should light. We need no more of a reason than that.

    #1430186

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    yet more evidence that slonimer is non other than Joseph (who for a couple years seemed to have been happy posting only as himself)

    The OP’s question is a troll post, asking how to tell girls they don’t light when not all girls don’t light. But our esteemed posters seemed equally “off” by answer that they do, which is just as incorrect. SOME do, and SOME don’t. You follow your rov. And the idea that we have some sobbing females not able to realize their role in the lighting if they don’t have their own match (for those who don’t) smells just like those women crying that they can’t say kaddish. (sorry GH, it isn’t always a negative to let women be yotzei mitzvos thru their husbands or fathers)
    If you are not able to raise your daughters with the understanding that they have different roles in Torah observance than their brothers, who have different roles than their sisters, then you have much more serious issues than this particular one.

    #1430205

    frumwoman
    Participant

    i always lit the menorah when i was a kid, than when i had a daughter of my own my husband wouldn’t hearof it, he would say that its not a game… & that isn’t proper chinuch, but i personaly realy think its totally fine who cares!

    #1430209

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    No one has provided a halachic basis for prohibiting it. If some families want to follow a minhag that the wives and daughters rely upon the husband/father for lighting, certainly nothing prohibits that but don’t suggest there is any reason to deny women the right to light candles if that is their preference.

    #1430257

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    My family holds that it is better for everyone to light their own menorah. That’s boys, girls, men and women.

    #1430271

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    אומרת הגמרא במסכת שבת (כג.) : “אשה ודאי מדליקה, דאמר רבי יהושע בן לוי: נשים חייבות בנר חנוכה, שאף הן היו באותו הנס”, כלומר: מדין הגמרא משמע שאשה ודאי חייבת בהדלקת נר חנוכה. בהמשך מציינת הגמרא שאשה מוציאה את בעלה ידי חובה אם הוא אינו שב לביתו. כך פוסק גם השלחן ערוך (או”ח תרע”ה ג’): “אשה מדלקת נר חנוכה, שאף היא חייבת בה” ומוסיף המגן אברהם (שם ד’) שהכוונה שאשה יכולה אף להדליק עבור כל בני ביתה ולהוציאם ידי חובה , ע”פ הדין בגמרא.
    יש מחלוקת בין האשכנזים לספרדים לגבי כמות החנוכיות שמדליקים למנהג המהדרין מן המהדרין המוזכר בגמרא. הספרדים הולכים בשיטת השלחן ערוך ע”פ התוספות (סימן תרע”א ב’) שמדליקים חנוכיה אחת בלבד עבור כל בני הבית.
    האשכנזים לעומת זאת הולכים בשיטת הרמ”א ע”פ הרמב”ם שלמנהג המהדרין מן המהדרין צריך כל אחד מבני הבית להדליק חנוכיה בפני עצמו. לשיטה זו לכאורה, אין סיבה לחלק בין איש לאשה וגם אשה חייבת כמובא בגמרא לעיל. אף על פי כן, פסק המשנה ברורה (תרע”א סק”ט), שאשה נשואה אינה כלולה בהידור של נר לכל אחד ואחד כיוון שאשתו כגופו ולכן אינה מדליקה נרות.
    זאת ועוד, המשנה ברורה (סימן תרע”ה סק”ט) מציין שלמנהג האשכנזים שכל אחד מבני הבית מדליקים, לא נהגו נשים להדליק נרות (ואפילו רווקות) מאחר והן טפילות לגברים, וזו לשונו: “… ועיין בתשובת עולת שמואל סימן ק”ה דלדידן שמדליקין כל אחד בפני עצמו מכל מקום אשה אינה צריכה להדליק דהויין רק טפילות לאנשים ואם רוצים להדליק מברכות דהוי כשאר מצוות עשה שהזמן גרמא דיכולות לברך”. טעמים נוספים ניתנו לכך שנשים לא נהגו להדליק נרות, כגון טעמו של החתם סופר שמאחר ועיקר המצווה הוא להדליק נרות “על פתח ביתו מבחוץ” ומאחר ו”כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה”, אין שייכות לנשים במצווה זו.

    #1430298

    apushatayid
    Participant

    do trolls light the menorah or are they yotze with their father?

    #1430292

    groissechuchum
    Participant

    I’m trying to think about this from a girls perspective. Sh’asanee Kirtzono, mommy doesn’t make kidush, lulav and esrog, all the action in mens section – women just spectators from ezras nashim….I’m sure they feel like second class citizens and all the logic in the world is not going to change that…my simple answer is that men and women have different roles and we’re all supposed to fulfill our tafkid (ask not what your country can do for you but rather…) It’s a huge arduous task in today’s day and age and need to battle herd mentality mores and a value system antithetical to our mission statement. Gotta have emunah that hashem will bring things around to true reality and each will be happy with their place and role

    #1430301

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ” …don’t suggest there is any reason to deny women the right to light candles if that is their preference.”

    That line makes no sense. We don’t do things based on our preference unless Halacha dictates that it relies on our preference. I find your posts very confused (not confusing). On one hand you reprimand anyone who is unkind toward others while at the same time speak very negatively about anyone who is doing things that you consider ancient, discriminatory or excessive.

    What gives? While some of your posts are very respectful toward Rabbaim and Torah, in other posts your attitude toward religion is highly critical and accuses Torah of being anti women. Well it isn’t. And doing things because you want to isn’t the way the real world works. If your mesorah dictates choice then so be it, but we weren’t having a halachik discussion so saying nobody gave sources is ludicrous.

    If you are an acclaimed oncologist who forever views herself as a brain surgeon wannabe then I feel very sorry for you.

    #1430361

    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    The Psak that I received was that unmarried girls should absolutely light the Menorah – and not as “chinuch”, but as the basic “Mehadrin min haMehadrin” according to the Ashkenazi view. To recap the levels described for the Mitzva:

    1. Basis – one candle each night for the whole household.

    2. Mehadrin – one candle each night for each member of the household.

    3. Mehadrin min haMehadrin (Ashkenazi) – each member of the household lights a number of candles equal to the night of of Chanuka.

    Based on the above, the Mehadrin and Mehadrin min haMehadrin require EACH MEMBER of the household – whether male or female – to light. There is grounds for a married woman to not light if her husband does on account of “ishto kegufo”, but that only applies to a married woman – single women are no different from men with respect to this particular Mitzva. Accordingly, all of my daughters light, but my wife does not.

    an Israeli Yid

    #1430443

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    #1430607

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “I’m trying to think about this from a girls perspective. Sh’asanee Kirtzono, mommy doesn’t make kidush, lulav and esrog, all the action in mens section – women just spectators from ezras nashim….I’m sure they feel like second class citizens and all the logic in the world is not going to change that…my simple answer is that men and women have different roles and we’re all supposed to fulfill our tafkid (ask not what your country can do for you but rather…) It’s a huge arduous task in today’s day and age and need to battle herd mentality mores and a value system antithetical to our mission statement. Gotta have emunah that hashem will bring things around to true reality and each will be happy with their place and role”

    Well I’m a woman so here. When I was a girl, I didn’t light because that wasnt our minhag.Yes tatte makes kiddush etc. And women have a special yt on rosh chodesh that men don’t have, women don’t work after menorah lighting for half hour while tatte can, most importantly, women make the child Jewish,and have the most influence on the attitude of the kids towards Yiddishkeit.

    I don’t understand why people cry for women. We have a very important role, and the men do too!just to explain as some people seem to feel bad for us… If a man saved three kids from going off the Derech by his efforts, he would praise Hashem for giving him the zchus…. Women with their Avodas Hashem, create and imbue a love for Yiddishkeit within their kids so they add ten or so more ovdei Hashem to the Jewish nation! That’s a great task and responsibility and I’m very happy to fulfill it.

    Unfortunately our world is a bit confused… I meet Non Jewish women all the time who so regret not having children and just focusing on their career as they were encouraged to do, they missed out and only realized when it was too late.

    As Golda Meir once said she regretted being prime minister, because there are lots of men capable for the post, but no one was able to fill in as a mother to her children when they needed her…

    #1430647

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha, do you like being a servant to men like Joseph says you should?

    #1430632

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “all the action in mens section – women just spectators from ezras nashim”

    Yes the men are able to draw down hamshachos that women d as well, and that’s why they’re the main players in the shul. Afaik, this is to atone for the meraglim who gathered as a congregation for bad. So now they need to gather as a congregation for good to bring down higher levels of Elokus to the world to make up for the lack they created. Similar to woman being granted the mitzvah of challa to make up for Chavas sin.

    We weren’t part of the meraglim fiasco so we don’t need Minyan. But we also don’t draw down the same hamshachos men do consequently.

    Anyhow yes I wouldn’t invite a not yet frum woman to meet me in shUl because we’re not the main players there. Id invite her to a Shabbos or yt meal in my home, where I’m the main player. Ishto zu baiso.

    #1430684

    Avi K
    Participant

    Kolelman, women were not saved from the Syrian Greeks?

    Chabadshlucha, I doubt evry much that Golda’s children needed her. She was 71 when she was elected PM. Both of her children were in their 50s.

    Regarding the topic of this thread, while the MIshna Berura says that wives and daughters do not light separately Rav Soloveichik held like the Machaziut HaShekel that they should (at least Askenaziot).

    #1430722

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @rebyidd a servant to men, no such thing. Serving Hashem through fulfilling my role, yes

    #1430749

    Binyanadead
    Participant

    Kollelman????
    Most mitzvos asseis shehazman grama women are obligated to perform, for various reasons that the torah and chazal obligated them for. For example, the mitzvos of the seder, purim etc. As the gemara clearly states women were also involved in the nes, so they are obligated to light.

    #1430773

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha, Joseph believes women should serve men.

    #1430784

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “Chabadshlucha, I doubt evry much that Golda’s children needed her. She was 71 when she was elected PM. Both of her children were in their 50s.”

    Interesting. I have heard this quote several times. But I was referring to younger children in my post.

    #1430788

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Binyanadead: Since when are the mitzvos of Purim medeoraisa? Yes, many mitzvos asay shehazman grama are set aside due to AF HEIM B’OSO HANEIS. However, chanuka menoros are slightly different because of how we practice NER ISH U’BEISO. Many women (not all) do not light. We let our daughters decide what they wanted to do since in my wife’s family the women did not light.

    #1430808

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @rebyidd where do you see I ascribe to that belief? Ie why are you telling me what Joseph believes?

    @avik maybe the quote was about her involvement in politics when she was younger? Anyone know what I am taking about?

    #1430770

    Binyanadead
    Participant

    Baltimore –
    The Olas Shmuel states that if women light, they make a bracha like by all other mitzvos that they perform (funny that this needs to be said). Not exactly correct. many mitzvos assei they do as aino mezuvah veoseh (but they of course make a brachah), while neiros cahnukah they are mitzuvah veoseh (and they make a brachah). The Chasam Sofer is inexplicable. the Gemara states that women are obligated to light neiros chanukah, and they lit outside and kol kavudah bas melech existed then as well, so why didnt the gemara state the reason of the Chasam Sofer if that is applicable?

    edited- be nice please

    #1430855

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha, Joseph is the reason for feminism.

    #1430890

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    RebYid, what did chabadshlucha say that warranted that response? Just because it’s her minhag not to light you think she’s a “slave to men?”

    #1430929

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    binyanadead: You wrote: The Olas Shmuel states that if women light, they make a bracha like by all other mitzvos that they perform (funny that this needs to be said).

    Not really since the minhag of the sefardim is that women do not make a brocha on a mitzvas asay shehazman grama unless af heim boso haneis.

    #1431166

    Sam2
    Participant

    Ashkenazi women Lichora should light for the family to be Yotzei Mehadrin Min HaMehadrin. There are uncommon (but, shockingly, growing) Minhagim from parts of Ashkenaz for single girls not to light, and a widespread one for wives not to light. The Minhag for single girls not to light is very Dachuk at best, and Lich’ora if people have that Minhag someone in the house should light a Chanukiah for them in order to still properly do Mehadrin Min HaMehadrin.

    #1431208

    Joseph
    Participant

    As a practical matter you find that most Ashkenazic adult single women, i.e. high school girls and post high school women, and certainly married women, customarily do not light their own Menorah. You don’t find most frum adult single Ashkenazic women who live with their parents lighting their own Menorah. Most of the divergence is by girls who are children (i.e. pre-bas mitzvah), where some, but not all, Ashkenazic families let them light.

    #1434282

    MTAB
    Participant

    As we know, men are commanded to perform mitzvos asei she’haz’man grama, time-bound mitzvos. Women, on the other hand, are not required to perform these mitzvos. What is the reason for this difference? The answer is that women have other important obligations to tend to, which exempt her from these commandments. A woman must know that she is a briah shel chessed, she has been created for the purpose of performing chessed. Being a wife and mother is a very significant role, and it requires her to be selfless and totally dedicated to performing chessed! It takes a woman’s entire effort to succeed in being an efficient mother and wife. Investing her abilities in raising children is very time consuming but is a tremendous zechus for her! (Rabbi Avigdor Miller Speaks, p. 271

    #1434287

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    What happens at elementary schools before Chanukah?… Children don’t make Chanukiot craft projects?

    #1434286

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Back in the day, my Chabad rabbi gave me a Chanukiah and candles to light on Chanukah. I am a woman.

    #1434285

    MTAB
    Participant

    “The Gemara asks a question, if a blind man should wear tzitzis on his garment. He has a four corner garment, does he need tzitzis? Because it says uri’isem oso, ‘you should see it’ and a blind man cannot see it. So maybe it’s patur from tzitzis. So the Gemara says, no that’s no reason because sha’ani tzitzis sh’yeshnah b’riah etzel acharim (Menachos 43a) other people should see his tzitzis. So a blind man should wear tzitzis not really for himself, (but) for other people to see. Now that’s a remarkable thing we are hearing now. It means the tzitzis that you are wearing are not only for you to see, it’s for me to see too. So let’s say a woman thinks I’m not wearing tzitzis so it doesn’t apply. No it applies to her too. As she sees her boys going around with tzitzis she should see the tzitzis uri’isem oso, you should see the tzitzis uzachartem, ‘you should remember’. And oso doesn’t mean only tzitzis, oso means you see Hashem when you see the tzitzis.”

    R’ Avigdor Miller
    Lecture, “Forever and Ever” #952

    #1434283

    MTAB
    Participant

    Q: If tzitizis and teffillin are so beneficial, why don’t women use them? And what do they have instead?
    A: The truth. is women do have it, because when men put tzitzis and tefillin, they’re not putting it on for themselves. That’s absolutely not true. Every father puts on tzitzis and tefllin for all of his children and for his wife, too. There’s no question that tzitzis and tefillin are the property of the Am Yisroel. But, more precisely, the family shares in all the mitzvos. So while he’s putting on tzitzis and tefillin in the shull, let’s say, and his wife is taking care of the children at home, somebody has to remain at home – he couldn’t go to the synagogue if she weren’t home. There’s no question that it’s her tzitzis and her tefillin. That’s the way to understand it. It’s silly otherwise! And when he comes to study Torah in the evening, who will babysit? And, therefore, she has one hundred percent partnership in all that the does.

    Q&A: Thursday Nights with Rabbi Miller, pp. 189-190.

    #1434279

    MTAB
    Participant

    “As was explained to me by my rebbeim over the years:
    Men generally require “action” in order to connect to Hashem, since men are action/goal-based beings. Women don’t need these activities to feel the connection to Hashem, since they are emotional beings, and can maintain a high-level emotional connection to Hashem without physical activity. Men can be considered somewhat lacking, since they require much effort to attain levels that women can very easily obtain.”

    I don’t know who your rebbeim are but they need to start using Torah sources for their explanations. This is apologetics. Maybe the women should be the rabbis if men are so lacking.

    Magen Avraham

    Shmuel 1:1 And Chana prayed upon her heart.

    Yalkut Shemoni: Why were women grouped with children and slaves concerning mitzvos? Because they have but one heart, as the verse says, “And Chana prayed upon her heart.”

    Ziies Ra’anan (the Magen Avraham): Women with children: The explanation concerns the positive time bound commandments. One heart: The yetzer tov does not dwell in them sufficiently. Therefore, if the positive time bound commandments were imposed upon them, it is likely that they would not do them.

    #1434284

    MTAB
    Participant

    IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE NESHAMA (SOUL) OF A MAN VS. A WOMAN?

    Link Removed

    “In neshamos there is no difference. Hashem gives people different ways different opportunities to perfect their neshama. When a woman is married and she dedicates her life to others, she’s doing something that transforms her nature. It’s impossible for her to function successfully and to remain selfish.

    Her main achievement is transforming her neshama by doing chesed (kindness) to Hashem’s people for the sake of Heaven.

    She has all the functions of other people upon her. She has to carry children with in her, and then she has to nurse the child. She has to worry about children at night; sometimes they’re not well. She has to think about preparing food for everybody. Everything is for others.

    She does it selflessly like a busy Jewish mother usually does. It’s an extremely important achievement for her neshama, and she gains perfection in that way. We don’t expect her to devote hours to Torah learning. Her main achievement is transforming her neshama by doing chesed (kindness) to Hashem’s people for the sake of Heaven. (If it’s done properly, it’s not merely done like gentiles do, but it’s done with the intention of serving Hashem.)

    A man has other opportunities. A man is not limited; he doesn’t carry a child within himself. He doesn’t have to nurse babies. Nevertheless he has to do many things. He has to go out to the marketplace, make a living. And there are many nisyonos (tests) in making a living. All the laws of choshen mishpat (business dealings) apply when you have to compete with other people for parnassa (livelihood).

    Therefore a man gains his perfection other ways, and is expected also to give part of his efforts to learning Torah and doing more mitzvos than a woman is able to do because she is busy. Each one gains perfection in a different way. (#791, 10 Aspects of Shabbos)”

    #1434308

    Non Political
    Participant

    It is astounding that Gedolhadorah, Sam2 , and Binyanadead think that they can simply shlug up the Mishnah Brura and Chatam Sofer based on their own interpretation of the Gemora and Shulchan Aruch.
    1. The Gemorah and Shulchan Aruch are discussing the fact that women have an obligation to fulfill the obligation of lighting menorah because they where included in the nes. What does that have to do with the fulfillment of the households unit of mhadrim min hamihadrin l’daat haRambam?
    2. The Mishna Brura was reporting the normative custom he was not being mchadish it. The M”B (and the Chatam Sofer) where giving an explanation for the widespread practice of women not lighting. Widespread practice when upheld by the Gedolim Sets Halachic precedent. The chidush is to have women and girls light. If you follow accepted Poskim who held they have enough of a Halachic basis to break with the normative custom (Rabbi Solovaichik quoted above) fine but don’t try to revise reality.

    #1434313

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @mtab if you want to quote sources maybe you should quote the other side: that Hashem told Moshe ko somar lbeis Yaakov these are the women, see rashi and sifsei chachomim who explain that Hashem saw that when he told Adam not to eat from the etz hadaas, he messed up. So now Hashem wants Moshe to go to the women first to tell them about the Torah first. And in order to motivate them, he should speak softly to the women and they will be inspired, but to the men he had to speak of the harsh punishments.

    The Rebbe further clarifies that Adam messed up because the entire yetzer hara was on the one mitzvah he was given. He was also a great man, ytzir kapov shel HKBH, so the yetzer hara was correspondingly great. So no wonder he messed up. Yet, by Hashem saying He should have gone to the woman first, this teaches us that If He had told chava first, then not only would she not have been messed over by the arguments of the nachash, she would also have prevented Adam from sinning.

    How bout the fact that the women didn’t sin by chet haegel and the men did? And it wasn’t because they loved their jewellery too much as they were the first to donate it to the mishkan, they eagerly arrived to donate even before the men. See rashi on vayovou haanashim al hanashim.

    They didn’t sin by chet hamiraglim either.

    What’s my point? Point is men and women are equal, as the Zohar says 2 halves of one whole. The woman is like the heart aNd the man is like the brain. Both are equally vital for the body to function and live. We need both.

    Being different there are areas where women excel- namely in emuna, middos etc. The heart stuff- which is why they werent swayed from Hashem, even when rationally it made more sense to follow the erev Rav and the meraglim.

    Men excel in the brain stuff- especially Daas. Making the correct logical decisions on tough topics without letting emotion blur the facts. That’s why the men are Rabbonim and need to set the spiritual standard at home.

    So you can bring any sources to prove who is better but that is stupidity as each has its maalos where they do better and we need both to have a happy healthy Jewish home and nation, and these kind of arguments or debates are like saying which organ should we cut out of the body, the heart or the brain?

    #1434348

    Joseph
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha: Why is the explicit Halacha in the Gemorah and Shulchan Aruch that you save a man’s life first?

    #1434598

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Interesting, when I learned that class I thought it was interesting but wouldn’t come to any good use as I am not a Rav so what use do I have for it, although it was very interesting. Now I understand why I learned it. Because people can unfortunately so misunderstand the kavana of halacha which used to be clear in past generations. This is one of the reasons why we need Chassidus today – the darkness of golus has grown so great that people can twist the meaning behind halacha horrifically, and this is just one example. I probably would be no different either. Pnimius ha Torah is necessary today because we are in such a dark golus that without it, people can use halacha, the body of Torah, to imply horrible things!😭

    #1434587

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Because it won’t hurt the woman as much as she is mentally ready to give up her life more for others. We learned this topic in one of our halachic thought classes.

    #1434732

    Joseph
    Participant

    Wrong. Halacha explicitly tells us the reason and it isn’t what you said.

    See the Rambam on the Mishna Horayos 3:7.
    “You already know that men are obligated to keep all of the commandments while the women are obligated to keep only part of them, as is explained in Kiddushin (Mishna 1:7) and he is [thus] [a man and a woman] are going to drown in a river, one should save the man first”

    #1435449

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Yes how does that contradict what I learned? I suppose my comment before was too sharp to be approved, so I guess I’m glad there are moderators, but this kind of way of reading halacha as seeing women the way the Arabs do, and twisting halacha to defend it is really inexcusable.

    #1435606

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ chabbadshlucha

    “but this kind of way of reading halacha as seeing women the way the Arabs do, and twisting halacha to defend it is really inexcusable.“

    I’m with Chabbadshlucha on this one (though I definitely didn’t need to learn Chassidus to get there) 😀

    #1435615

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Yes how does that contradict what I learned?”

    You invented a boich svara to explain the Halacha, to fit a feminist agenda, when the Halacha explicitly gives the reason for the Halacha and it isn’t the boich svara you came up with.

    “this kind of way of reading halacha as seeing women the way the Arabs do, and twisting halacha to defend it is really inexcusable.”

    Wow, you really are lashing out at the Rambam now. I quoted his giving the reason for the Halacha (which was the only reason presented and no one else offered a reason here, so clearly you were upset with his explanation), but his explanation isn’t unique to him. It says as much directly by Chazal.

    #1435710

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Please quote the Rambam. I don’t see any Rambam quoted here. And what I learned was not made up to fit a feminist algebra. As you can see I have no problem attacking feminism when its attitudes are anti Torah.

    Regardless of what the Rambam says, there is a klal that the chachomim were nizhar with the kovod of bnos Yisrael. When you quote a halacha that a man’s life comes first within the context of implying that women are sub men like the Arabs, that’s your issue, not the Rambams.

    I’m eagerly awaiting the quote.

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