June 29, 2009 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #589960HeshyMember
I asked a “Baal Halacha” this past Shabbos if he knew the source for the halacha that you should face the sefer Torah during leining. He said there is no such halacha. I am almost positive that I learnt it once. Can anyone shed some light on this? Thanks.June 29, 2009 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #649352
The Mishna Brurah advises making a brocha facing the open Torah, but to close the eyes while doing so (open link below):
hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14164&pgnum=42&hilite=June 29, 2009 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #649354bein_hasdorimParticipant
I remember that too, that one shouldn’t sit with his back to the torah.
lemme look it up before, to make sure.June 29, 2009 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #649355
who should face the Sefer Torah? everyone in the Shul? those at the Bimah? the one who has the Aliyah?June 29, 2009 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #649356HeshyMember
I wasn’t referring to the one being called up. I meant the kahal listening from their various places in shul.June 29, 2009 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #649357WolfishMusingsParticipant
I always face the Sefer Torah during laining. But then again, I’m always talking loudly during laining too… 🙂
The WolfJune 29, 2009 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #649358
certainly seems like proper Derech Eretz and Covod’l Torah to me,
but i never heard of it as Halachah.
hopefully someone will be able to clarify the matter here.June 29, 2009 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #649359
A little further down from the earlier halacha, the Mishnah Brura says that although you can’t normally have your back to the Torah, when it’s being leined on a Bima, it’s ok since the Bima is in it’s own R’shus (see below):
hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14164&pgnum=47&hilite=June 30, 2009 2:33 am at 2:33 am #649360bein_hasdorimParticipant
Hesh, sorry didnt get a chance yet.
WolfishMusings: I take it your a baal korah then?June 30, 2009 7:37 am at 7:37 am #649362onlyemesMember
Sefardic batei knesset, and also many Ashkenazic shuls from old time Europe were designed so that all the seats faced the bimah. Obviously, that way all were facing the Torah. The sefardim do have a practice to never have their backs to the sifrei torah. I have a (sefardic) friend who in an ashkenazic shul is careful to sit behind the bimah so he never has his back to the sefer.June 30, 2009 10:01 am at 10:01 am #649363
bein_hasdorim: Didn’t you see the m’kor in the Shuchan Aruch with a discussion in the MB on the link above? Copy and paste link below to the address bar for SA and MB text:
hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14164&pgnum=47&hilite=June 30, 2009 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #649364jewishfeminist02Member
No, there is no requirement to stand during leining, but I know several people who have that minhag. The reasoning is that we all stand for Kriat Aseret HaDibrot, but the entire Torah is from the same holy source as the Aseret HaDibrot, therefore why should the Aseret HaDibrot receive more kavod than the rest of the Torah?
Possibly that minhag extends to the direction one faces during kriah. I should ask one of my friends who holds by it.June 30, 2009 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #649365
cherrybim: Shuls that are built in the style of a Beis Knesses have a Bima on a platform which is indeed in its own reshus as the platform is 10 tefachim off the ground. Shuls that are built in the style of Beis Medrash have a Bima on the floor level and are probably not in a separate reshus.June 30, 2009 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #649366
you made an important point. It is true that the whole torah is equal and it is not proper to only stand for the aseres hadibros as if its more importnant then other parts. that is why R’ Avodia Yosef paskens that s’fardim should not even stand for that part of laining. He writes that those who are in a shul of ashkenazim and ashkenazim themselves if they choose to stand during the aseres hadibros should stand from the begining of the aliya intil the end in order not to show any deference to one part over the other.June 30, 2009 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #649367
That is why it isnt necessary either to stand when a aron is opened, since the sifrei torah are in a different reshus. It is just our own choice to show kovod by standing then but it isnt required. The only times during the laining process that there is a reequirent to stand is as the torah is being carried from the aron to the bima.June 30, 2009 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #649368
Squeak: A tefach is only 4 inches and most Bimas are at least 40 inches high, so even without the platform, the Bima is probably in it’s own reshus.
Azi: Rav Moshe also holds that we do not get up for special leinings, such as the Aseres HaDibros, since the entire Torah is of equal importance.June 30, 2009 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #649369
isnt there a requirement to stand for each Brocha before the laining?June 30, 2009 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #649370
yes, sorry, you are correct. the only thing the mishna berura says one should stand for is the brochos. and the stading for a moving sefer torah is kovod sefer torah.June 30, 2009 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #649371mepalMember
Not really following here, but do you have to stand for the brachos before the aliyah only or also the ones said after the aliyah?June 30, 2009 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #649372PMMember
Only for Borchu before the aliya, and even for that Sefardim do not stand.June 30, 2009 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #649373mepalMember
Thanks for clarifying.July 1, 2009 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #649374
cherrybim – does the average bima have sufficient surface area to be considered its own reshus (not makkom p’tur, remember this is not hoitza’ah, we’re talking about rea; reshuyos)? Height is not the only requirement.July 1, 2009 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #649375
squeak: It’s not my p’sak; just quoting the MB. It seems the MB wasn’t bothered by it.
hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14164&pgnum=47&hilite=July 1, 2009 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #649376
I understand. I haven’t looked at the MB just yet but I was wondering if he is referring to a bima on a platform (as was the norm).July 1, 2009 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #649377
Yes he was, but then the Shulchan would probably be permitted to be lower than ten tefachim. Once the shulchan is higher than 10 tefachim, it creates its own r’shus, even without a Bima platform (implied from MB).July 1, 2009 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #649378
Once you say “implied”, I reserve the right to argue with your statement directly. So next time, don’t try to hide behind a wall of “It’s not my p’sak; just quoting the MB.” That’s sheker.July 1, 2009 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #649379
Squeak: M’gosh, I’m so hurt.
“It’s not my p’sak; just quoting the MB.” refers to the Pri M’gadim brought down by the MB regarding a Bima (platform) creating its own r’shus. NOT IMPLIED.
The “(implied from MB)” concerns the height of the Shulchan as gleaned from other Rabbonim/poskim who “implied from MB” since they quote from the source which I have supplied the link twice, yet you say that you hadn’t seen it.
I accept your apology in advance.July 1, 2009 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #649380PMMember
If you have a question in Halacha the best thing to do is to ask a Rav, not a blog. If it is easier to ask on the computer than in person, there are websites that have responsible Talmidei Chachomim answering sheilos such as Revach.net.July 1, 2009 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #649381
PM – “If you have a question in Halacha the best thing to do is to ask a Rav, not a blog.”
Unless of course it’s PM who is doing the blogging. A quick look into CR archives under PM will reveal numerous PM opinions in Halacha, not that there’s anything wrong with that.
If the title is RAV PM, then I do apologize.July 2, 2009 12:34 am at 12:34 am #649382I can only tryMember
Guess what?July 2, 2009 12:49 am at 12:49 am #649383povertyMember
Maybe it is Rav Pm Zatzal, the Rosh hayeshiva of Mesivta Yeshiva Torah Vodaath who brought so much kindness to the world. The Rosh Hayeshiva showed so much humility. Most RY’s sit in from of the Beis Medrash. Rav Pam sat in middle to show that he was like anyone else. And his close talmid Rav Yisroel Reisman Shlita does the same.July 2, 2009 4:43 am at 4:43 am #649384
I can only try: Although I did apologize in advance; it was an “asmachta”. Why? Because any RAV who spends time in the CR, is no Rav in my book.
Also, we’re not talking “shvere sugyos” halacha here, the Mishna B’rura was quite clear concerning our discussion.
And from my read, a number of CRers seem to hold up quite well when it comes to halachic topics, including PM.
While the Internet is no substitute for intensive halacha textual learning with a Rav, PM is right in that there are a number of pretty good Internet sites with renowned Rabbonim and Poskim providing discussions and p’sak halacha on various questions and topics.July 2, 2009 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #649386I can only tryMember
That’s a unique pshat on “asmachta” 🙂
(although if your offer included “and buy him a coke”, you’d probably be correct)
And from my read, a number of CRers seem to hold up quite well when it comes to halachic topics, including PM.
Agreed. I often am impressed at the halocha seforim, piskei halocha, and meforshim posters seem to have at their fingertips.
I don’t know for sure, but I’d imagine that “asmachta” that is not koneh requires two things; that the person assumes the occurrence won’t happen and that he is unhappy when it does.
To make up a case – suppose someone’s living-room a/c dies an hour before a Shabbos which is forcast to be 95 degrees and humid, and he offers his repairman neighbor a $50 reward (on top of his standard fee) if he can get it working before Shabbos, expecting that it is impossible to fix it that quickly. If the a/c unit is fixed, although he was somech on it not being done, he is quite happy with the results and it is well worth the extra $50. Is he chayav to pay the extra $50?July 2, 2009 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #649387
I can only try: Facinating S’aila. This week’s Daf Yomi in Baba Metzia deals with the (sometimes overlapping) issues of Ribis and Asmachta.
For anything complicated in Ribis and Asmachta, you must have a competent Rav decide (ya hear PM) and ideally with both parties involved.July 5, 2009 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #649388Pashuteh YidMember
I find it hard to believe that everyone should sit facing the Torah, since in many shtiebels the tables have people on both sides, some sit facing forward, and some facing backwards. There is no way they could all be facing the Torah unless half were standing and turning around.
But if one is walking by the Torah, probably one should try to face the Torah, as it says achoreihem el heichal hashem. For this reason I believe many shuls read haftarah on the side of the bimah. You don’t want to have your back to the sefer torah which someone is sitting and holding, and also don’t want to have your back to the aron in front.July 6, 2009 1:42 am at 1:42 am #649389
Pashuteh Yid – good ha’ara, but what happens when there are multiple Sifrei Torah on Yom Tov or Shabbos; the bal k’riah and amud ha’torah have their backs to the Torah?
Many shuls are set up with tables so that the mispallalim’s backs are to the Aron or Shulchan but it’s not l’chatchila. It needs (or at one time needed) to be done because of space issues. The problem is that, in time, many b’dee’eveds become l’chatchilas, and the b’dee’eveds are not corrected when the opportunity presents itself.
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