False information from references
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- This topic has 30 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 4 months ago by Eli Y.
January 15, 2018 2:42 am at 2:42 am #1449340
One of my friends recently went out on date and he told me after that parts of her personality just wouldn’t work for him and had he heard these answers from her friends on her resume he never would’ve gone out with her. These werent bad things that it would be lashon hara to say when called for research though.
My question is (I know it would never happen but) maybe there should be some sort of penalty for putting references onto a shidduch resume that aren’t equipped to answer questions truthfullyJanuary 15, 2018 7:04 am at 7:04 am #1449403
The way you describe this scenario the references only omitted some neutral information, they didn’t give false information. If they weren’t specifically asked about these neutral (or even negative) points, they have no reason to give the caller that information.January 15, 2018 7:06 am at 7:06 am #1449396👑RebYidd23Participant
Yes. There should be a $40 fine paid directly to the governor of whichever state the incident takes place in.January 15, 2018 7:09 am at 7:09 am #1449400David111Participant
“parts of her personality just wouldn’t work for him”
This is something that is difficult to pinpoint with just asking friends.January 15, 2018 9:48 am at 9:48 am #1449411lesschumrasParticipant
Ive been told that lashon hara does not apply tp shiduchim. If you are not permitted to give an honest answer, there is no point to the resume or supplying references.January 15, 2018 9:49 am at 9:49 am #1449413adocsParticipant
List Of Things To Do Today
1. Fix shidduch system
2. Insert penalty clause into current shidduch system.
3. All done!!January 15, 2018 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1449480
Next time be your own shadchan and do the home work yourself!January 15, 2018 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1449481
Joseph; he was told by her friends that she is a quiet and reserved girl. She was completely the oppositeJanuary 15, 2018 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1449482
lesschumras: I am not sure who told you that but it is incorrect. L”H does apply to the references on the shidduch resume. One is supposed to get guidance from their Rav on how to avoid L”H but to still answer truthfully.
To the OP: It is not possible to anticipate every possible question to the references on the resume. We are not neviim and what person A will question person B will not but ask other questions not important to A. There are some individuals who will call others in the person’s community and ask them some questions even if they are not on the resume. When I started dating one of my aunts told me that I will probably find someone that has 80% of the qualities I was looking for. The question she asked me was “will you be able to live with and overlook the other 20%”?January 15, 2018 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1449483
Lesschumras; u better believe lashon hara applies by shidduchim. The chafetz chaim has a big part of his sefer about shidduchimJanuary 15, 2018 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1449516
“The question she asked me was “will you be able to live with and overlook the other 20%”?”
Did your wife fail to meet 20% of what you were looking for?January 15, 2018 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1449581
Before marriage it looked like 80-20. In the thirty years it has become more like 50-50.January 15, 2018 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1449583
All bashing aside it’s saving a lot of time by making sure that the references are able to accurately describe the boy/girl that is being researched!! The research is very important and it’s been trending downwardsJanuary 15, 2018 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1449615lesschumrasParticipant
Me12355, Shidduchin is one of the exceptions that the Chafetz Chaim makes, provided the following conditions are met :
A.the person making the request must it is for the pirpose of a shidduch
B. The request cannot be made from someone knownto be an enemy of the prospect
C. The response must be carefully thought thru and not exaggerated
D. It is permitte to report only those negative comments that pertain to the shidduch. However,if , for example , the engagement has already taken place and the newinfo is unlikely to break it, you cannot say
E. If the requestor is known to be indiscreet, you cant answer
The Pischei Tshuva holds that it is an avairah to withhold information regarding a shidduchJanuary 15, 2018 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1449621WinnieThePoohParticipant
I don’t think friends would lie and say that a girl is quiet and reserved when she was not, since being overly quiet/shy can be a problem when it comes to dating. Perhaps it depends on the setting- among her group of outgoing friends, she is quiet, but on a one-on-one basis, she is more confident and outgoing and showing a side of her personality that her friends do not normally see. Her friends can only describe her as they know her. That’s why there is dating, to see for oneself what the person is like and if personalities mesh.January 15, 2018 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1449623The little I knowParticipant
I am shocked to read an implied “halacha” in several comments. This “halacha” suggests that if saying something truthful is L”H, then one can lie. This is definitely not true. There is no heter to mislead someone into a shidduch by lying. If someone believes the Chofetz Chaim implies this, I need to see this black on white. I do not recall such a thing, and it is certainly inconsistent with known halacha. It may be one matter to withhold information. But to deliberately give false information is quite another.January 15, 2018 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1449625
In my experience, when I have been called about someone (even when not on the resume), I tell the caller whether I know the boy or the girl or just the parents. I was called by a relative about a girl whose family davens in the same shul that I attend. I told the relative that while I know the father and the girls’ brothers, I really did not know the girl herself. The relative asked me a few pertinent questions about the father and brother’s and called others for more information.
I was once asked about my friends daughters “how pretty is she”? My response was that it is not appropriate for me to answer such a question.
We actually list two sets of references on my children’s resumes: family and child specific.January 15, 2018 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1449641
Joseph; he was told by her friends that she is a quiet and reserved girl. She was completely the opposite
Let me share with you a very common scenario when it comes to info about boys.
One of the more common questions asked from the girls side is whether the boy smokes. Boys who are smokers and want to start dating know this question comes up .so what many of these boys do is they stop smoking publicly, giving the impression that they quit. (But many boys never intended to quit at all and resume smoking after they are married.)Because his friends dont see him smoke anymore they no longer consider him a smoker. My question to u is if someone were to ask you about certain boy who who you know stopped smoking or only smokes iin private , how would you respond if you were asked about This boys whether he is a smoker? For all intents and purposes Lets
assume for a minute you are his chavrusa or close friend?January 15, 2018 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #1449643David111Participant
“Joseph; he was told by her friends that she is a quiet and reserved girl. She was completely the opposite”
C`mon. This is not something to complain about. He clearly saw this in the first date and moved on. (Btw. Is he only dating girls that are “quiet and reserved” ? )
I do agree that it is clearly wrong to withhold information that can have an impact on ones life . (eg. Medical / Emotional ..) Not sure if handing out fines is the best solution….. Perhaps give it a try and report back to us how it went.January 15, 2018 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1449659
David111 do you mean to say get rid of the whole research thing and let everyone figure out after the 1st date if it makes sense?? Most guys that I know am I’m sure the girls would feel the same don’t wanna go out unless the shidduch has potential!January 15, 2018 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1449656
Takes2 that’s a big shaila in halacha if you’re supposed to answer about smoking. This specific example of “quiet and reserved” is not something you can lie about. There are some people that are quiet a d some that are the life of the partyJanuary 15, 2018 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1449928
Quiet and reserved is all relative just like cute ot beauty is relative . So that persons perspective could br different then yours. Also many girls who are known to be reserved actually become unreserved to a large degree when they hsve compatibilities eith the person they are talking to or dating. So its not so far fetched if she is different in the reserved/ area etc.January 15, 2018 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1450027
Rabbi Yair Hoffman wrote an article covering this topic based on another thread.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1440396/keeping-mental-illness-a-secret-in-shidduchim-a-halachic-analysis.htmlJanuary 15, 2018 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1450106jdf007Participant
I didn’t grow up this way, but my Chofetz Chaim a lesson a day says that Lashon Hora doesn’t have to be negative, it can be positive as well. And secondly, if it is just opinion and not an issue that should not be an issue after marriage, that is lashon hora too.
Sounds like it on both levels imo.January 15, 2018 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1449987The little I knowParticipant
You wrote: “Takes2 that’s a big shaila in halacha if you’re supposed to answer about smoking. ” Can you please tell me where this shailoh is found? I need a single reference (or more) in a reputable sefer that considers this as a question. Smoking, according somewhere around 95% plus of poskim consider this an issur d’Oraysa. Secondly, smoking implies an aspect of self pleasure that easily affects others adversely (in stinking and second hand smoke). Thirdly, there are health risks that significantly increase the possibility of chronic disease and early death. Someone who asks about this is entitled to an honest answer, and I cannot believe that anyone who is considered a posek says that there is a question about this. To me, there is zero shailoh. Who (poskim please) think there is a question?January 15, 2018 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1450109
Takes2 that’s a big shaila in halacha if you’re supposed to answer about smoking. This specific example of “quiet and reserved” is not something you can lie about. There are some people that are quiet a d some that are the life of the party
Its NOT a big shaila anymore in todays day and age. The surgeon general has warned us for many years already about the imminent dangers of smoking.
Any qualified ruv who really know about the medical ramifications of smoking will te you the same. If a ruv says that its ossur to disclose that info is not with the program and should not be paskening such shylis. Now im not talking about someone who occasionally lites up for a chosson cigarette. Im talking about a habitual smoker. And everyone know the difference.January 16, 2018 9:14 am at 9:14 am #1450584
Before marriage it looked like 80-20. In the thirty years it has become more like 50-50.
Consider yourself lucky!January 16, 2018 10:20 am at 10:20 am #1450715
“Before marriage it looked like 80-20. In the thirty years it has become more like 50-50.”
iac, just to clarify your point, you’re saying before marriage it looked like your kallah was 80% of what you were looking for but after 30 years of marriage you found it is more like 50%?January 16, 2018 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1450880👑RebYidd23Participant
Most of what is important in a marriage isn’t known to the references.January 16, 2018 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1450882
joseph: No…..things that I thought then were a “chisoron” that I can overlook have been proven that I cannot overlook. But there was no way of knowing this before marriage. It has come with both the “good and bad” that HKB”H has thrown at us in the past 30 years. The “good and bad” is in quotes because we don’t understand the actual cheshbonos and what we may think is “bad” may actually be good. Couples eventually have to confront issues that could not have been foreseen when dating.January 16, 2018 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1450935
iac, I don’t understand what your 80% (before marriage) and 50% (after marriage) mean. What do those figures represent?
Also, the chisronos that (before marriage) you thought you could overlook and live with that turned out after marrying you found you couldn’t tolerate, how did you deal or manage with those chisronos?January 16, 2018 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1450965
Joseph: Let’s say before marriage we seemed to be 80% compatible but there were about 20% of things that I found to be a “chisoron” (these things were not necessarily her personally but things that were common in her family). I will not get into what they exactly were but it was opposite from how my family conducted themselves. I felt that I could either overlook it or at least when around my family to avoid what she did in her parents house. Since we have been married I have found other “chesronos” that now measure 50%. These other “chesronos” were not discernible before and only exposed themselves after marriage.
How I deal with these issues is my personal business (and my Rav’s) and not for public consumption.January 16, 2018 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #1451283
50% compatibility sounds difficult.January 17, 2018 9:45 am at 9:45 am #1451388Eli YParticipant
I know I act differently depending on who I am interacting with. Is it not possible that her behavior on this date was caused by some social energy between the 2 of them? It is enough that he decided he wants to keep looking–why imply her friends with a false report?January 17, 2018 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #1451846
Next time do your homework yourself instead of relying on 5th hand info!
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