November 11, 2010 4:58 am at 4:58 am #592988lechatchilahMember
I have been at several weddings in which the father and brothers come over to the women’s section to dance with the kallah. I was wondering about the different views on this topic. Thank You!November 11, 2010 5:28 am at 5:28 am #709151aries2756Participant
This usually happens when there is no mitzvah tanz. I think it is a very emotional moment when the Kallah dances with her father and the brothers come in as well to have the honor of dancing with the Kallah. It is family thing and a family choice at a family simcha. Whether other people approve or not should really not be fodder for discussion it will only breed loshan horah.November 11, 2010 5:29 am at 5:29 am #709152
Very inappropriate. I’m guessing it was a very MO wedding or the girl is a BT or Giyores and the parents and siblings haven’t quite caught up yet.November 11, 2010 5:50 am at 5:50 am #709153BEST IMAParticipant
WIV its not only MO or BT weddings at all. I was a very yeshivish wedding and the father came to dance with his daughter for a few minutes. I thought it was beautiful but my husband was totally against the whole idea. It did get very out of control when the mother joined in and then someone went to call the sisters too. It became a real mess.November 11, 2010 6:09 am at 6:09 am #709154
Not surprised. The Mechitzah is there for a reason. Duh! Why do people keep pushing the envelope?November 11, 2010 7:46 am at 7:46 am #709155bezalelParticipant
This is less problematic than a Mitzvah Tantz (unless the kallah is a giyores).November 11, 2010 10:13 am at 10:13 am #709156amichaiParticipant
don’t see a problem with it. I think it shows the warmth of the family. it should be done in good taste.November 11, 2010 10:15 am at 10:15 am #709157apushatayidParticipant
WIY. Don’t assume.November 11, 2010 10:58 am at 10:58 am #709158myfriendMember
This is public lewdness and immorality. What if the father had a terrible taaiva to eat chazir and it was really emotional for him, and if he had the waiter bring him a shtick chazir in middle of the wedding? It is an aveira b’rabim, that and this.November 11, 2010 11:09 am at 11:09 am #709159yechezkel89Member
WIY there is no halachik problem w/it. It has nothing to do w/ whether the person is “modern orthodox” (whatever the term means) or “yeshivish”. so please don’t start handing out labels, that is what is really inappropriate.November 11, 2010 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #709160apushatayidParticipant
Well informed people don’t make uninformed guesses.November 11, 2010 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #709161WiseWomanMember
I think it’s beautiful when the kallah dances with her brothers and father. I’ve seen it many times and I love it! on that note, since I do not have a father and I am very close with my uncles at my wedding they came and we danced together. I am not MO at all as I am Yeshivish/Chassidish. Yes, they are conservative but they went to yeshiva all their lives and they chose a different path. Number one I would never put them down for it. In fact I had one uncle say a bracha under the chuppah and the other walk my husband down. For me NOT to dance with them would have been a disgrace. Since they are my mother’s brothers my mother joined too as did her 3 sisters. Why is a mitzvah tantz ok? because they are dancing with a gartel? Tell you the truth I think it’s more inappropriate to watch a mitzvah tantz where every single person, man and woman, are watching the kallah dance. if you have a problem with a father and brothers dancing with a kallah then you must have a problem with a mitzvah tantz? why is ok for a kallah to dance with a rebbe and not her father or brother? this is completely ridiculous to even put anyone down bec they dance with their father and brothers! Kol Hakavod to the kallahs that do!November 11, 2010 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #709162A23Participant
Please tell me where in Shulchan Aruch this aveirah can be found.November 11, 2010 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #709164jakywebMember
I don’t see a problem with a kallah and her Mother dancing with their Father and brothers. Isn’t that allowed? No other men or women would be allowed in the circle. How is that a problem?November 11, 2010 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #709165SacrilegeMember
I think you have to clarify that at the time when the father and brothers come into the womans section to dance with the Kallah all the woman STOP dancing. There is then No problem. I mean, you can try to go dredge when up, but dont go handing out labels or comparing it to eating pork.November 11, 2010 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #709166theprof1Participant
A23, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 152-13. A father is allowed to dance with his daughter, brothers are not allowed to dance with their sister. Even so the dancing should not be in a mixed atmosphere. The mitzva tantz is made with women at one side and men at the other. The brothers, uncles et al, dance with the kallah with a gartel, never hand in hand. The yshivish weddings generally have the kallah coming into the men’s section and sitting next to the choson and the men and boys dancing in front.November 11, 2010 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #709167popa_bar_abbaParticipant
There are many people who do this. Even in non MO families.
I don’t think it is very nice to cast aspersions on them from your own 2 minute assessment.November 11, 2010 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #709168oomisParticipant
This is public lewdness and immorality. “
Myfriend, I am sorry you have NO clue whatsoever on this earth as to what constitutes public lewdness and immorality, if you can say that about a father dancing with his daughter at her chasunah. If it’s good enough for a rebbie who is not even immediate mishpocha to have a mitzvah tantz with her, kal v’chomer it’s appropriate for the actual father of the bride.November 11, 2010 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #709169shimmelMember
kallah dances? the kallah sways a bit…in the all the mitzvah tanz'(make that plural) I was by i never saw the kallah actually dancing.. Also, Mitzvah tanz is something that has deeper meaning , It isnt face value..November 11, 2010 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #709170
At no time did I dance with my sister at her wedding. I *did* dance with my wife, but that was in private.
(Just waiting for the howls to come from some corners — “WHAT! You didn’t dance with your sister? Don’t you know it’s a minhag kadosh to dance…”)
The WolfNovember 11, 2010 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #709171
If the other women aren’t dancing its certainly less of a problem. However the father and certainly the brothers (especially if they are unmarried) have no place being on the womens side of the Mechitza. You are going to tell me the brothers and father (especially the single brothers )aren’t going to look at all the girls who are dressed to kill? Who are you fooling?
The Rabbanim have a distaste for when they bring the Kallah into the mens side. Its become mainstream so they don’t put up a fight. But men have no place mingling with the women.
Theprof1 said it well.November 11, 2010 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #709172whatrutalkingabtMember
I would have loved to dance with my father and brothers at my wedding, but while I dont feel its exactly public lewdness and immorality I dont think its appropriate.
It becomes a whole balagan when men start coming in to the womens section…and when the kallah goes into the mens section (which is why I didnt do either) The mechitzahs end up being pushed over and the side of the dancing without the action will end up crowding into the other section.
I just didnt want to have the headache of men and women mingling by my chasunah…and so even though I really wanted to go into the mens section or have the men in my family come in…I let it go.November 11, 2010 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #709174
Ah…the ???? ????? …???? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ….of course, his intention was against the mitzvah tantz. I think that the problem is that ultimately it never ends there and everyone ends up on everyone else side. Same with the Kallah coming to the choson’s side. First the shvigger has to come, and her mother, and of course her sisters, and I’m like a sister, and what, of course we shoudl watch, so the mechitzah gets moved but half of the ezras nashim is still dancing…
Not in Shulchan Aruch. Seems secheldik not to do.November 11, 2010 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #709175phrumMember
Wait a minute… whose father and brothers are they? ;-PNovember 11, 2010 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #709176not IMember
There is an inyan of Keitzad Merakdim lifnei hakalla.. I guess this is an extension of this…November 11, 2010 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #709177SacrilegeMember
LOL! sounds like my brother’s wedding. But that was OOT….November 11, 2010 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #709178
Well said. Kallah comes in and so do all her “best” friends. Basically 1/2 the ladies section ends upby the boys and now whoever dances in front of the Kallah (the single guys) also try to impress the single girls who are watching. What a mess lol.November 11, 2010 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #709179
Well said. Kallah comes in and so do all her “best” friends. Basically 1/2 the ladies section ends upby the boys and now whoever dances in front of the Kallah (the single guys) also try to impress the single girls who are watching. What a mess lol.
Time to hit the dessert table 🙂
Unless I actually know the girl herself (not just her parents) AND believe she would be happy to see me dancing, I try to sit it out.November 11, 2010 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #709180
Is everyone here against Tu B’Av also?November 11, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #709181
Because, I mean, we grew on the same street, so obviously he looks at me as sister, duh, so it’s totally fine…right…November 11, 2010 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #709182
There was no one there (Tu B’Av) who was just looking 🙂November 11, 2010 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #709184
SJS – come on, do you have to hijack the thread with an MO bomb? I’m pretty sure the question was based on the assumption that men and women should not be dancing together, and that there should be a mechitzah between men’s and women’s dancing at wedding, and they were wondering if there was an exception for daddy daugther. If you like, we can discuss the chazal. But I don’t think it’s going to answer our question.November 11, 2010 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #709185
Moq, it was in response to the statements of “heaven forbid a single man should see a good looking, dressed up woman at a wedding” and possibly inquire about her?November 11, 2010 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #709186YW Moderator-80Member
i guess all the choshuv Rabbeim and Gedolim who speak in extreme terms about the aveirah of men watching women dance are not familiar with Tu’bAv.
maybe there is an explanation of this inyun that you know nothing about?
this is a perfect example of people who do not understand Torah concepts throwing around a fact here and there that they “learned”
to ask a question to a seeming contradiction is quite valid. to use isolated puzzle pieces to attack Torah values is notNovember 11, 2010 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #709187
Mod-80, I’m not attacking Torah values. I’m attacking the notion that a man should never, ever lay eyes on a woman in any way shape or form. Especially a single woman who may become his bride! No way should a woman stand near one while he dances to impress her.November 11, 2010 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #709188
So please, SJS, let’s start another thread and analyze that fascinating chazal, as well as other chazals, and perhaps find a resolution?November 11, 2010 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #709189not IMember
Well said Mod 80! Sharp! Couldn’t agree more..November 11, 2010 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #709190
Right…a guy should check out every girl wherever he goes because you never know…
Vlo Sasuru Acharei Lvavchem Veacharei Eineichem…your idea is purely Atzas Yetzer Hora.November 11, 2010 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #709191YW Moderator-80Member
sorry, i misunderstood
but others constantly bring up that inyun as a proof against the words of our Torah Leaders
i should have known you would notNovember 11, 2010 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #709192jakywebMember
You have got to be kidding me – the boys will look at the girls dressed to kill – What is wrong with that? Potential shidduchs. If one shidduch comes out of this, so be it. At the weddings I go to the women stop dancing when the Father and brothers come in to dance with kallah. I feel sorry for the kallahs who didn’t go into the men’s side for Katza Merakdim. I feel it contributes to the simchase Chosson V’Kallah. I have never in all my years see this descend into intermingling. It goes on for about 15 minutes, the kallah is escorted back to the ladies side and back to seperate dancing.November 11, 2010 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #709193
The problem is not intermingling.
It is when the 15-19 year olds that went to the wedding as members of the yeshiva decide to “hang around” when the girls all enter the men’s side to watch.
Should there be men dancing for the Kallah? Yes, it is a minhag Yisroel.
Should the teen girls and boys be watching each other (when the boys are not even close to being ready to get married)? IMHO, no.
Histaklus is Assur, and teen boys in yeshiva have enough problems as is.November 11, 2010 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #709194
Shidduchim my…foot. Shidduchim come about by living according to the Torah and going through the process with a shadchan. Looking at every girl you see until you find one you like and then inquiring about her is Assur. Its not a free for all we can’t look where we want just because we are in “shidduchim.”November 11, 2010 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #709195
Shidduchim come about by living according to the Torah and going through the process with a shadchan.
Lav Davka (although I did). And I’m not sure about the second point either, if the purpose is Tachlis.
Would you happen to have any backup?November 11, 2010 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #709196dunnoMember
“Looking at every girl you see until you find one you like and then inquiring about her is Assur.”
Prove it.November 11, 2010 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #709197
Shidduchim come about by living according to the Torah and going through the process with a shadchan
So, you’re saying that there is NO other possible way of meeting one’s spouse other than through a shadchan?
The WolfNovember 11, 2010 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #709198
Prove it? A boy isn’t supposed to look at girls period unless its on a date or something. Stam looking is assur. Many guys will rationalize that they are looking because they will then find out about the girl and then have it redt. Baloney. By the time this “gazer” gets married he has looked at 1000’s of girls for no reason. A guy who looks will look at the wedding, the bar mitzvah, the sheva brachos, the vort, the lchaim, the bris, the shabbos kiddush and when walking in the street. He just beacomes a big baal tayvah.
Almost all people marry girls they never saw before in their life so there’s no Heter to look. The only Heter would be is if a guy is at a wedding and someone wants to redt a girl to him and she’s there so probably then it would be mutar to look. Otherwise, its assur to stam look at every single girl.
Vlo Sasuru Acharei Lvavchem Vacharei Eineichem is the issur.November 11, 2010 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #709199myfriendMember
dunno, WIY said: Vlo Sasuru Acharei Lvavchem Veacharei EineichemNovember 11, 2010 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #709200bptParticipant
Way out of bounds. Either have a mitzva tanz, or don’t. From what I’ve seen lately, the kallah coming over to the mens side for ketzad merakdim has been eliminated, as a sign of yerida ha’doros.
The mitzva tanz is after the meal, when most non-family members are gone. And, the few mitzva tanzs I’ve been to where the married brothers get called up, they hold a gartel, not hold hands.
And bochurim? I had my head handed to me by my rov when I sent up my 6 year old to dance with his aunt (my sister). The rov said this is no place for bochurim.November 11, 2010 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #709201
Almost all people marry girls they never saw before in their life
I think you need to redefine “almost all people.” You’re using it to mean “almost all people in my little subgroup.”
The WolfNovember 11, 2010 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #709202
Yes there are other ways. But the most kosher way is through a shadchan.
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