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I was wondering if we – FFBs get credit for being frum? Or is it just the BTs??
FFB’s get an extra 2 credits. But BT’s can get 2 extra credits if they don’t push their hats back on hot summer days. BT’s also get extra credit if they marry a fat girl who is over age 23.
How would you define ‘being Frum”? We get credit for every Mitzvah we do and for every aveirah we refrain from. The greatest Tzadik gets rewarded for every small particle of a mitzvah he does. And the greatest roshe gets punished even for the smallest aveirah he does, even if he’s done so many before.
observanteen,it’s called kiruv krovim,and I agree with you,it’s under-addressed!
see Rav Dessler Michtav M’Eliyahu Chelek 4 pg 322 and Chelek 3 pg 124 (Tzadik ben Tzadik) and Chelek 2 pg 205
WORTH THE TIME!!!!
Coercion is not Chinuch
by Rabbi Yonasan Rosenblum
In his Kuntras HaBechirah, Rav Eliyahu Eliezer Dessler makes a truly frightening statement. No matter how elevated one’s actions, if those actions are only the result of one’s training, then they confer no merit upon the one performing them. Only those actions that result from the exercise of one’s free will are attributed to a person.
Most of us experience a certain puzzlement upon first confronting this Rashi. After all, isn’t it more meritorious for Rivka to have formed herself into tzadekes, despite having no models to emulate? One possible answer is that we do not fully appreciate what it means that Yitzchak was a tzaddik.
Yitzchak was the son of Avraham Avinu, the greatest man who had ever lived, the one who discovered Hashem through the power of his own reason, and proclaimed His existence to the world. With such an overwhelming image in front of him, the natural thing would have been for Yitzchak to emulate his father’s derech avodah (path of Divine service). Had he done so, however, Yitzchak Avinu might have been an exemplary person, but he would not have merited the title tzaddik.
…??? ????? ???????, ?? ????? ???”? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???, ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????, ??? ?? ??? ????? ??????, ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???’ ?? ????? ???? ???’ ???? ?????? ????, ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??’ ?? ??? ???? ????? ??.
observanteen “Exactly, eclipse. That’s my point. Sometimes I wonder if we could’ve invested all the energy in the frum people instead of reaching out the the secular crowd. Not minimizing the chashuv mitzva of kiruv, but,as you put it, maybe we should invest more in the krovim instead of waiting till they’re rechokim”.
Brilliant point! Halevei we’d have the inclination and strength to lovingly put equal effort into both camps.
observanteen,of course,amd imaofthree,that’s why my friends and I get together around rosh chodesh time each month…chizuk that lasts until the next month!It’s musical,fun,and inspiring in a different way every time!
Start something for your peers,be creative,fun and keep it simple so it’s NEVER a pressure.
Need ideas?Happy to help!
Those who merit being FFB have more time in their lives to do mitzvos. BTs can never catch up.
Those who merit being FFB have more time in their lives to do mitzvos. BTs can never catch up..
Both get credit.
Wasn’t Yitzchak answered before Rivka because it’s harder to sometimes be frum, really frum with a love for mitzvos and all and not just a facade, when it’s expected of you.
BT’s get all this praise for becoming frum but FFB’s don’t get any recognition for staying frum and it’s hard sometimes. So I guess we do get credit too.
You get credit for what you work for; what you put in some amount of effort into to produce. BT’s get credit for braving the yetzer hara of staying not frum, and FFB’s get credit for braving the yetzer hara of becoming not frum. I heard once that a major baal teshuva was once asked who he thought had it harder, and he answered that without a doubt it’s the FFB’s, because BT’s got to see the non-jewish world and they saw first hand how empty and ugly it is, but to FFB’s it looks like a glittering world of happiness and fun. In a sense, it’s so much easier for FFB’s to want to run off to the non-jewish world, because they don’t know what it really is.
observanteen,did you see my post?
guys we want ur opinions AS LONG AS THEY ARE SHORT SWEET AND TO THE POINT. please dont cut and paste whole essays to prove ur point because we all know that nobody reads long posts. so for all of u thatr just quoted things please repost a summary of ur point
I am frum not because i was raised that way! frumkeit to me something special, something beautiful and not forced down my throat! its something i want
“I am frum not because i was raised that way! frumkeit to me something special, something beautiful and not forced down my throat! its something i want”
*************************************
In order to know what do you want, you need to know what exist, how it looks like, why it is so special. One knows all this, because he saw it in his parents home (FFB), another – because he saw this in his neighbor’s house (BT)
i just read a great story in one of Rabbi Kaplans books. He says how he was once giving a class in ohr somayach, and was telling these baalei teshuvas how amazing they are to just give up their whole lifestyle for torah. one man got up and said, “You’ve got it all wrong rabbi!” He explained that baalei teshuva see the “other world” and see how empty it is, making them want torah. FFB’s though, grow up with it and dont know what the outside world is like yet still keep the torah and mitzvos, and that he said is the most amazing thing, more amazing then anything a baal teshuva can do!!!!!
I’m still in awe from this story! I never thought about it like that!
>O<613
wanderingchana: Posts like yours are perfect examples for my (now deleted) comment.
yeah im sorry wanderingchana but that is not the case! there is the chazal that a tzaddik can never stand in a place a baal teshuva can stand. and i dont know if you have ever seen a baal teshuva daven or perform other mitzvos, but the concentration, the excitement, and the effort in which they put in to every mitzva they accomplish and every word of torah that they learn is not something most of us ffb’s can say we have and it is really something special and something for us to look up to and strive towards.
Put it this way…
Everybody has a “ladder” to climb.
People start out (through no fault OR credit of their own) on different rungs of that ladder.
Your “score” derives not from the rung you started at,
but where you are when you “finish”, i.e. how many rungs
you have climbed up (or, chalila, descended) on your own.
Exactly meaning you cannot tell a baal teshuva that they will never catch up or accomplish as much as a FFB….
>O<613
observanteen, I don’t know about you but you know why I’m an FFB? Because my grandparents made a conscious decision to be shomer Shabbos and keep simcha in their house. You know how easily I could have been something else, had my granparents made other decisions re Shabbos, or stayed in Europe a little longer and maybe fled to Communist Russia and survived but where would I be…
I’m just grateful they did what they did, made my life easier and richer. And I just treat every BT as a victory; they’re as much a symbol of Jewish continuity and hope as the babies Dr. Gisi Perl delivered after the war (you must know that famous story).
I don’t think that there isn’t enough investment in the frum community as much as that the energy that’s been invested hasn’t been effective. Now that’s something worth looking into. If you’re not getting the chinuch your soul needs in school, try to get enriched out of school. Check out sites like torahanytime.
Hatzlacha!
Just this past Shabbos I was learning some Sifsei Chaim and he brings the gemara in Berachos that says that
“all [the good things- Rashi] that the nevi’im prophesied was only for ba’alei teshuvah, but for tzaddikim gemurim ‘ayin lo ra’asa elokim zulasecha'”
He explains that a ba’al teshuvah gets extra siyata d’shamaya to grow because Hashem wants the person to come back and without the help the struggle would be too hard.
But a tzaddik gamor doesn’t get this siyata d’shamaya- his growth is with his own strength so to speak and therefor his reward is that much greater.
So even though “b’makom she’baalei teshuvah omdin tzadikim gemurin einom omdin” and therefor a tzaddik gamor may not reach a higher level than a ba’al teshuvah per se. But since his growth was of his own accord ‘l’fum tzaarah agra”.
Thought you’d never ask!:)
Ok,great light food/refreshments/flowers,etc.
My friend plays keyboard;we always end with singing.Those who prefer to shmuz then,do.
We say a 5 to 10 mt.little speech on the “theme” we chose for that month.
We both compose our own songs,so we perform one or two of those.
Sometimes,we do a short comedy skit–making the guests laugh is so much fun!
Before you turn around 2 hours has gone by,I make everyone take all the nosh with them…and we all feel great!
Oops–the chizuk part is in the theme and the songs.
“Those who merit being FFB have more time in their lives to do mitzvos. BTs can never catch up.”
actually you are dead wrong…
if Teshuva is done out of Love for Hashem and not just fear, the sins can be switched to mitzvahs…so the BT will still be ahead 🙂
This is a vry serious shaila..I think it’s time to hire a special YWN CR Rabbi,
Maskim anyone?
You don’t want a rabbi, you want a rebbe. Only rebbe’s talk about peoples’ accounts upstairs with authority.
Fine, so we definitely need a few Rabbeim then.
I’d like a few opinions..
Mike, I was trying to make her feel better!
Sometimes I wonder if the ones who get the most schar are the FFBs who are really orthoprax (orthodox in practice, not in belief). I know that sounds heretical, but its a lot harder to keep mitzvos when you don’t believe they are necessary.
So if you are staying frum because of social pressure or the inability to break away, but still stay frum in private (meaning at times when no one would see and only affect you), that seems tremendous.
observanteen,Rosh Chodesh….monthly!:)
SJSinNYC, tremendous point! I think, with age and life experiences, there are lots of us who this pertains to!
I recall Rabbi Avogdor Miller ??”? mentioning that if one worked on oneself and it becomes second nature (e.g. always getting up for davening on time) then one still gets rewarded for doing it as it if were difficult.
One does not get “punished” for making it second nature.
IMHO, BTs should get most of the credit because they chose a difficult path in life. One that is full of challenge and uncertainty. But most people who choose the path of T’shuva don’t just wake up one morning and decide to make a radical change in their life. It’s an evolving process, that takes months and sometimes, years. But, in most cases it’s triggered by a momentous event of survival that opens up the thought process to the possibility that there is a higher authority (Than is perceived on a conscious level.). But, in every case, the Emunah is very strong once the decision to alter the lifestyle has been made.
“Those who merit being FFB have more time in their lives to do mitzvos. BTs can never catch up.”
“yeah im sorry wanderingchana but that is not the case! there is the chazal that a tzaddik can never stand in a place a baal teshuva can stand.”
It’s actually a raging machlokes amongst the commentators as to what that statement means. The Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva 7:4) seems to understand it literally – ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???
The Orchos Tzadikim (end of Shaar Hateshuva) says almost word for word what the Rambam says.
However, Rabbeinu Yonah (Avos 3:16) explains it oppositely – ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?????
Similarly the Maharsha (Berachos 34b) says ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ???????? ??? ?”? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??”? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??”? ??? ????”? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???”? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???”?
The Kli Yakar (Bamidbar 19:21) has an entirely different understanding -??? ?????? ??? ????? ??”? (????? ?? ?) ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??????, ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? (???? ? ??) ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????
wanderingchana: Life is not a race to collect Mitzvah-points. You are judged by who you could have been compared to who you actually were. It’s not about time to catch up or anything like that. So it doesn’t matter who gets an earlier or later start. It matters who you make yourself into.
wanderingchana:
Alas, wanderingchana has not posted here in over a year.
The Wolf
Wolf: I use that to both identify who I am speaking to and so that people can have an easier time figuring out which post I am responding to. While a post may technically be responding to one person, it is clearly intended for everyone to read.
there’s no reward in being ‘frum’, what G-d wants is that we fear him, emulate him, love him, serve him with pure intentions, and keep all his commandments. you’ve been doing that since birth? are you doing that now properly? My point is true service is a life long goal, even if we lived till a million we’d still find ways to improve. Besides for the mussar, alot of ‘frum’ people are sometimes not so ‘frum’. Doing teshuvah in that case could be even greater than doing teshuvah in the case where one is clearly against halacha. for instance doing teshuvah and learning to keep shabbos is amazing, although it should be easy on the side that it’s a clear case of right and wrong. But a person who keeps the mitzvot but they’re not careful about certain things like having kavanah when saying blessings, then to repent then takes a special strength, especially since in that case it’s a private matter with no one to rebuke them. and how could a person even call themselves frum if they speak loshon hara, or embarrass or hurt others, or are not careful about others property, etc… if you learn some good mussar maybe you wont feel so frum and then you can feel good about getting to be a baal teshuvah!
Hal, I agree with you 100%.
SJ… I find your comment disturbing. If you don’t believe mitzvos are necessary why are you doing them? How can you claim to get schar for not believing? I think you need to be true to yourself – you shouldn’t be living a lie. If you’re frum, you should believe in Hashem and the truth and necessity of the Torah. If you don’t really believe and you’re just frum because you’re scared that you might turn out to be wrong, you need to be honest with yourself about that. Please continue doing the mitzvos if that’s the case, but realize that
1- That’s NOT the ideal. You should try to further your spiritual growth.
2- That’s NOT the norm for most of us.
Personally, as a teenager, I read about lots of different religions. (Probably shouldn’t have) I feel like I chose to be a Torah abiding Jew as much as any baal teshuvah.
Being a true Torah jew, like Hal said, is a DAILY upward struggle.
I never understood the “love and fear god” concept. From my (admittedly limited) experience, love and fear are very much anti antithetical.
I love mmy father, but I certainly don’t fear him (same with my mother). And the one or two people I do fear, I don’t love.
I’ve never had both for the same person.
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