Following Halacha

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  • This topic contains 77 replies, has 29 voices, and was last updated by  Avi K 3 weeks ago.
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  • #1793581

    Just Another Yid
    Participant

    Some people, when they are asked why they don’t do a certain Halacha (hat and jacket, washing on pizza or dipping foods), they say: “It’s not my minhag, stop bothering me,” or maybe “it’s not your business.” There is a posuk of Hoche’ach toche’ach Es Amisecha. How do I know when to tell someone a halacha or not? the Chofetz chaim talks about the importance of that posuk, but it sounds like everybody wants to do it when told they are doing it wrong….
    what to do?

    #1793738

    If it is a definite halacha say something but if it a halacha where there is a machlokes poskim and some follow one opinion or the other ask a rav for guidance. For example, standing or sitting by kiddush. Halachah to sit but many people have a minhag to stand (ARIZAL). not eating foods with vinegar between Rosh Hashanah and (Yom Kippur and for some until shmini atzeres). Minhag or halachah?

    #1793749

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Halacha Yisroel, din hoo…..minhag Yisroel, weeeellllll, it depends on the minhag….maybe yes, maybe no.

    #1793748

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    We all have a responsibility-if we see any of our loving brothers C”V sinning-to stop them and let them know what they are doing wrong, rather they will listen to us or not and stop what they are sinning is between them and Hashem.,but you still have a chiyuv from the Torah to stop someone from sinning and let them know what they are doing wrong.

    #1793813

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    A great approach is to ask. eg ” I thought wearing a hat is a halacha, why arent you wearing one?” that way you don’t come off as confrontational, if they dont have a good explanantion they might realize that (at least youve pointed itout) and if they do , and if you listen to the answer you might learn something.

    Everybody wins!

    #1793810

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Not sure if the whole posting is a troll ( the question about jacket and hat as halacha sure sounds suspicious). I think a point that a few other posters have forgotten is that the mitzvah to rebuke someone is only if they are going to listen and the goal is to increase kovod shomayim. It is not just ” I do my part and whether you listen is your problem”. It could be that even if your ebuke is based on solid unquestionable halacha it will accomplish absolutely nothing other than giving you a chance to blow off steam For example, telling certain Orthodox sects that they are praying shachris after the correct time. It could also cause damage and a tremendous chilul Hashem. For example if a tinok shenishbah is told that they are violating shabbos, depending how it is done can be really damaging.
    One must use their seichel to determine what will accomplish the greatest good

    #1793824

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Not everyone holds with hat and jacket, dipping or washing on pizza. You have your poskim, they have theirs. It’s interesting that you picked 3 that are not universally accepted and assumed your position is the correct one.
    That is the problem with giving tochacha

    #1793836

    Avi K
    Participant

    Just.

    Who says that one must wear a hat and jacket while davening? The Mishna Berura and Aruch haShulchan say that a hat is necessary because in their time and place a man would not walk in the street without a hat. Today that ius not the case. Rav Mordechai Elaihu says the same about a jacket based on the Ben Ish Hai (and it is not a machloket between the Mechaber and the Rema).

    As for pizza, it depends on how it is made and whether it is considered a snack or a meal in one’s place. RavMoshe says that in America one slice is mezonot but two are hamotzi. Some, but not all, Israeli poskim say that even one is hamotzi.

    I do not know what is meant by “dipping foods”? Do you put them in a mikva?

    #1793898

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Please, I invite you to come to the shule where I daven shacharit during the week, and ask you to tell everyone there (including the Rav) why we’re all “violating halacha” because there’s nary a jacket or hat in sight (unless it’s cold).

    #1794008

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avi K, When you stand infront of a king, you dress in a proper atire so should be dressed accordingly when davening and bentching.

    #1794024

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Don’t let your personal physical life, corrupt your mind to doing things the way YOU want to personally do it which is the wrong way halachically and cause you to C” come to win alli because YOU want to do something your way and not the torah law way.

    Example. Don’t go running to restaurants and vacations etc… When the Torah doraisa says directly “don’t go after your heart-desires-and your eyes-what they see”. There is no excuse. It is written directly in the Torah and comes straight from Hashem (sure you can go to the restaurant if you have a business meeting or family dinner together with them. That’s not running after your desires….)

    #1794028

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    What if someone has a burning desire to sound like a …. and make up things HaShem never intended(מגלה פמים). Is that running after your desires?!?

    #1794037

    frumtd
    Participant

    Sam, the Torah writes that but what does that mean? If you desire to do a mitzvah, should you not run after that? Perhaps you need to expound on your newfound issur d’oraisa of going to restaurants. I think in pashut it is pretty clear that such an admonishment is primarily referring to things that are assur. Perhaps you can learn from it a general approach to life to not chase after various desires and temptations but to suggest that running to a restaurant to have a juicy steak is an issur d’oraisa may be a bit of a stretch.

    #1794032

    rational
    Participant

    It’s interesting to see that as the decades go by, the yeshiva high schools still employ the “This is the way we do it, so this is the halachah” system of indoctrination. I’m not surprised , but it is unfortunate. The hat and jacket thing is particularly telling, I’ve been hearing that nonsense for over 50 years.

    Let’s wager on what percentage of boys would or would not change their attire if one minute before mincha they were informed that they are about to have a private audience with the Monarch, or a State official, or (gasp) a date with a maidel. They can go “as is” or they can shower and dress appropriately. I wager 99.99% change their clothing.

    #1794033

    Avi K
    Participant

    Eliezer, proper attire depends on the time and place. For that matter, in Western countries one removes one’s hat as a sign of respect. See Aruch haShulchan OC 91:2:

    אמר רב אשי: חזינא ליה לרב כהנא כי איכא צערא בעלמא – שדי גלימיה. כלומר: השליך אדרתו מעליו, שלא יראה כחשוב (רש”י). כי איכא שלמא בעלמא – לביש ומתכסי ומתעטף ומצלי. אמר: “הכון לקראת אלהיך ישראל”. ובשעת הצער השליך אדרתו, וחובק ידיו באצבעותיו כאדם המצטער מאימת רבו (שם). [Shabbat 10a]
    ולכן יש שמדקדקים עתה דאיכא צערא בעלמא, לבלי להתפלל מנחה ומעריב בחול בבגד עליון. ובשבת ויום טוב מתפללין בבגד עליון, דאין להזכיר צער בשבת ויום טוב. והשליח ציבור גם בחול לובש בגד עליון, או שלובש הטלית. וכן המנהג הפשוט במדינות אלו. וגם בעלייה לתורה לובשים בגד עליון מפני כבוד התורה, וכן בהגבהת התורה.

    See also seif 6:
    ולענין בגדים: כללו של דבר שצריך להתפלל בבגדים שיוצא בהם לרחוב.

    #1794121

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Their is (and I suspect will be) a constant tension between “changing” halacha to “fit the times” vesus interpreting halacha in the context of the times. Some have analogized the debate to the parallel legal arguments about constitutional jurisprudence and a literal versus textual versus originalist approach. Not that we ever should equate the issues associated with analyzing what the framers in the constitution meant in 1776 versus what chazal had in mind hundreds of years ago but there are some analogies. If we accept the invariant “correctness” of a core set of principles and rules, than we will always need a mechanism to resolve questions on how to apply those as times change. In simple terms, the lawyers have SCOTUS and we have gadolim. For some reason, BOTH seen to work in the large percentage of instances although there always seem to be those dissatisfied by the outcomes.

    #1794169

    Just Another Yid
    Participant

    I don’t get why people say there is no basis in halacha for something when there is plenty, then get mad at me when I say there is.
    regarding hats and jackets, there are 2 main reasons for it being mandatory: Omeid Lifnei Hamelech and being covered during davening…
    The Mishnah Berurah says in se’if 90 se’if Katan 1 that one must be covered properly during davening since it is improper to daven unless you are dressed as if to see a king. society has decided that proper attire is a jacket. The Shulchan Aruch in that se’if says you must have a head covering.

    regarding a hat, the Rambam says in Hilchos Tefillah perek 5 halacha 5 that it is the derech Chachamim to only daven with a head covering.

    @rational; The yeshivos that I have gone to did not say ‘thats the way it is’, they showed me sources. I don’t know where you went, but that’s not what I experienced, and it is not nonsense if you actually do a tiny tiny bit of research.

    #1794036

    frumtd
    Participant

    R’ Eliezer, your position is quite interesting since apparently numerous chosuva Rabbonim in practice do not act as you suggest. All you need to do is look at a site like this one “agudathisrael.org /agudath-israel-federal-advocacy” to get an idea of what happens when respectable jews meet those in authority. When you get down to it, it seems that wearing hats when meeting Presidents or people equivalent to a melech the only ones that consistently wear hats are Lubabvitch and Chasidic Rabbis.

    #1794164

    laughing
    Participant

    Just remember a minhag brocht a din

    #1794265

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Just remember a minhag brocht a din

    No it doesn’t.

    #1794273

    Milhouse
    Participant

    >:> Just remember a minhag brocht a din

    > No it doesn’t.

    Yes, it does, but only sometimes. Sometimes a minhag brecht a din, and sometimes minhag osiyos gehinnom, and it takes someone on a higher pay grade than mine to decide which is which.

    #1794315

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    frumtd, a Jewish king.

    #1794324

    MDG
    Participant

    “regarding a hat, the Rambam says in Hilchos Tefillah perek 5 halacha 5 that it is the derech Chachamim to only daven with a head covering.”

    So one could wear a kippah or a turban, as the Rambam did.

    Besides which, who says Derech Chachamim applies to everyone?

    #1794323

    Just Another Yid
    Participant

    frumtd,
    it is interesting that you forget what is mandatory to wear in front of a king. we see from the Mishnah Berurah mentioned above (by yours truly) that ‘fit for a king ‘does not mean only a hat, rather a jacket also. all the rabbonim there were wearing jackets, as was AG Barr, who i assume speaks to trump (who might not be a king altogether (and who is not considered a king himself)).
    why should they wear a hat there?

    if you will bring a proof from chashuva rabbonim, find ones that don’t wear a hat by davening.

    #1794371

    rational
    Participant

    Considering that halachah has been around for a few thousand years or so, it is odd that it took a few thousand years minus 120 to establish that one should wear a hat and jacket when davening.
    If the earliest psak on this issue is from תר”ע, then it is a recommendation for the population in eastern Europe and nothing more. To call it a halachah L’doros, בכל מקום ובכל זמן is a bizayon to real halachos. A little serious research into halachah would help here.

    The American Yeshivish Bubble is fairly adamant that their way of dress is the only viable way. I suggest that these boys spend some time at the Koisel in Yerushalayim, stand in the back and view the numerous varieties of bona-fide God-fearing Jews who come there to daven. The variations in dress are impressive. Interestingly, the American yeshiva boy there stands out from the crowd like a sore thumb. Is his way the only way? Maybe it is on the corner of 14th St. and Laurelwood Ave. but wake up children, that location is not the epicenter of Judaism.

    As an aside, there is a book by Rav Professor Eric Zimmer, עולם כמנהגו נוהג , where he traces the history of head covering. It is clear that before the period of the acharonim, head covering was for chachamim only. To extrapolate from the Rambam that all must wear a Borsalino during davening is foolish. Apologies that the book is in Hebrew, so it’s only for the halachically literate.

    #1794503

    MDG
    Participant

    “we see from the Mishnah Berurah mentioned above (by yours truly) that ‘fit for a king ‘does not mean only a hat, rather a jacket also. ”

    Today that may also include a tie, even more than a hat.

    #1794494

    MDG
    Participant

    “It is clear that before the period of the acharonim, head covering was for chachamim only.”

    For praying or other times?
    Can you provide me with a quote?

    #1794553

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Of course, there is a Mitzva of Hochei’ach Tochi’ach. However, the Torah cautions, Lo SIsa Alav Cheit. Correcting your friend must be done in a way which does not offend him, and which will cause him to do the right thing.

    The first step is to determine whether in fact the “Halacha” in question is a bona fide Halacha. For this, do not rely on “what you were always told,” or even what your Rebbe said in High School. Go ask a competent, practicing Rav. Proceed only if a true Halachic issue is present.

    The second step is to determine whether there is some extraneous factor which will prevent the other person from listening to you. (For example, is there some existing relationship between you and him in context of which he will automatically feel defensive when you approach him?) If so, get someone else to approach him.

    The third step, once the first two have been satisfied, is to prepare a nonthreatening, friendly, SINCERE, way of presenting the problem to him. (It is important, for example, that this is done in a dispassionate manner, without condescension.)

    My experience (repeated many dozens of times without fail) is that if this procedure is followed, people are grateful for the assistance and happy to change.

    #1794567

    besalel
    Participant

    to the OP, a simple piece of advice: look into your heart and be honest with yourself. If you can then state with certainty that (1) you have no ill will – at all – towards the person you are talking to and (2) the reason you are talking to that person is only to help HIM and for no other reason, at all – then you can go ahead and Hochayach Tochiyach.

    #1794575

    one thing as absolute and that is Judaism is in no way a laissez-faire ; anything goes do it ;don’t tell me how to live- religion
    While they may be much latitude in determining when and where rebuke ought to be given

    #1794585

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Well intentioned musar delivered in the wrong way/wrong time can be a very dangerous tool when applied to a younger man/woman whose own hashkafah is weak. Unless you know what your doing, DON”T do it or perhaps arrange for a Rav or somone experienced be the shaliach.

    #1794604

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    catch yourself, the Rav Abarbanel explains that when admonishing, don’t put the sin on him by calling him names. Say his actions or behavior is wrong not him personally.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  Reb Eliezer.
    #1794614

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Don’t say I didn’t warn you all that the whole post was pure trolling. Notice that the poster claimed to be discussing halacha as if he/she sincerely would like to admonish his fellow Jews about clear cut halacha and then gives three examples of issues that are not clear cut halacha.
    Even if it is in the Mishnah brurah, if the MB is discussing something based on societal norms, one can not honestly claim that it is “halacha” that is not subject to debate.

    #1794653

    Avi K
    Participant

    Just,
    1. did you read that Aruch haShulchan? Moreover, the MIshna Berura says explicitly that it only applied to his time and place.
    2. Regarding Rambam, he only talks about chachamim, not ordinary Jews. Moreover, a kippa is a head covering.
    3. While we are on the subject, what about shuckling? One would definitely not behave that way in front of a king. One certainly would not shake his fist at him as I have seen some people do.
    4. What about not davening according to the zeman? I have seen whole minyanim do this.

    #1794686

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi: Your zman or my zman?

    #1794696

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    ” what about shuckling? One would definitely not behave that way in front of a king. One certainly would not shake his fist at him as I have seen some people do..”
    KIds learn from adults and follow their actions. Have you ever watched an entire class of youngsters as young as 5 or 6 years old trying to “out-schulke” one another when davening. Clearly, they have seen this from some of the rebbeim (or maybe the rebbe himself) and are simply copying their behavior w/o any idea as to why. In many cases, they don’t even understand the words of the teffilos but have unbounded shuckling energy.

    #1794702

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Yeah, it’s called chinuch. Did you ever watch a kid brush his teeth? He rarely gets as many as he misses. But he’s imitating what he sees and hears. That’s called the learning process 🙄

    #1794729

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Shockling is based on the pasuk כל עצמותי תאמרנה ה’ מי כמוך. There is a story when a rebbe said that you should shockle forwards and backwards indicating ‘yes’ and not sideways indicating ‘no’. Reb Moshe Feinstein ztz’l stopped shockling based on an incident where a Russian soldier pointed a rifle at him. He was so shocked that he could not move, so he decided to use this for davening in front of Hashem.

    #1794736

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    In every shul I’ve been too over many years, there always seems to be one or two erliche yidden who sit towards the front and pull their tallesim over their head during shmoneh esreh, shuckling with great energy and verbalizing the words of the Amidah very loudly while the Rav of the shul nearby is davening w/o tallis over his head, very little body movement and very silently.

    #1794767

    Just Another Yid
    Participant

    I don’t know, there is no halacha to shuckle, and i frankyl don’t know what the conversation is. people shuckle to concentrate more, that’s it. The Mechaber talks about how NOT to shuckle (to make it look like ur a ba’al ga’avah), but I don’t see the controversy by shuckling.

    #1794770

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “In every shul I’ve been too over many years, ….while the Rav of the shul nearby is davening w/o tallis over his head, …”

    In EVERY shul youve been to, the Rav doesnt cover his head with talis during dvening?

    I find that hard to believe

    #1794772

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    People talk with their hands so its probably unrealistic to expect yidden to stand in shul davening like a mannequin in a store window. Some movement is also normal and actually helps to physically relax the body and allow you to engage in the davening with greater kavanah. I think this whole issue involves the extreme shuckling in shteiging and davening that has become a metric to define whether you appear to others as a real tzadik and yiras shamayim.

    #1794780

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Can one give Tochacha for the Mishna in Kidusshin Kol Hamitzvoth HaBen al Ha’Av?

    #1794788

    rational
    Participant

    in early Hassidic philosophy, as in the writings of the Magid Memezritch and others, the purpose of shuckling is to get closer to the shechinah using a specific mechanism.

    #1794790

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph. the Halacha’s zeman. I have seen minyanim davening Shacharit ten minutes before the time for Mincha.

    Eliezer, I think that people were antsy so they hung it on a pasuk. Rambam says that it means that a person should serve Hashem with his entire being. As for Rav Moshe, he was told by an NKVD interrogator not to move a muscle or else. Rav Soloveichik also stood at attention. Rambam says that one should stand still with one’s hands folded on one’s chest. Apparently jn his time and place this was the posture of supplication.

    #1794842

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi: There are different shittos as to when the correct zman is.

    #1794841

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I hope OP doesnt wear a wristwatch or hear Drasha’s in english

    #1794853

    justme22
    Participant

    the gemorah says if someone won’t listen better not to say anything ( mutav sheyiu..) however I don’t remember if is the rif or that ran in beitzah that says this applies even by deoraisah unless there is a possuk explicitly forbidding it. Hat and jacket even is not explicit in the torah.

    #1794859

    justme22
    Participant

    Did Moshe Rabbeinu wear a hat ? Some will claim he did even though black hats were not existent then.
    What u would wear in front of a king ? When they visits queen Elizabeth do they wear a hat ? So you will Say “no it is what you would wear in front a gadol” but I think the only reason one would wear a hat in 2019 in front of a gadol is because of the existence of this Halacha so why did we ever stop using whatever garment was worn before black hats after all that was what you wear..
    in fact I think in many buildings in consider disrespectful to war a hat and you have to remove it when you approach the person.. I will never understand this but I understand that as long as the rabbanim continue to say is required my logic makes no difference it is what it is and is not about my logic.
    I even heard from some posskim that is better to daven alone than to go to minyan without a hat and that without a hat one doesn’t count for minyan. 🤔

    #1794966

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, cite a source that says that one may daven Shacharit when it is almost time for Mincha.

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