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  • #1794963

    no nonsense
    Participant

    Take a look at the Parsha pictures many Rabbeim send home…The Avos with Streimlich. Additionally, I had a Rosh Hayeshiva who told our Shiur, that if we don’t wear our hats and jackets in the street we will lose half of our ability to shteig.

    As far as shokeling, I heard a source that we serve Hashem with Ahava and Yirah, hence, shokeling front and back.

    #1794964

    rational
    Participant

    “It is clear that before the period of the acharonim, head covering was for chachamim only.”

    For praying or other times?
    Can you provide me with a quote?

    MDG, I wrote a long piece with many quotes detailing the history of head covering. It didn’t make it through the system.
    Sorry, I tried.
    I don’t see any deleted posts from you-29

    #1795010

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    These are the words of Radbaz about covering the head during tefiila as mentioned by the Sharei Teshuva SA O’CH 8:

    שו”ת רדב”ז חלק א סימן שמג
    ותו דקי”ל דאע”ג דיש לו ציצית בבגדו צריך שיעשה לו טלית להתעטף בו בשעת התפלה וכן נהגו כל ישראל

    #1794993

    rational
    Participant

    Thank you moderator 29
    I guess I didn’t send it out properly, I’ll try again

    #1795039

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Not to misunderstand the above Radbaz, I will quote the Sharei Teshuva: (The place is misquoted)

    וכ”כ ג”כ הרדב”ז ח”ב סי’ שמ”ב אותן שאין מכסין הראש עושין שלא כדין וכן נהגו ומנהג אבותינו תורה היא ע”ש,

    If you think that this applies only to the brocho look at the Piskei Teshuva:

    פסקי תשובות אורח חיים סימן ח אות ח
    ח. להקפיד על כיסוי הראש בטלית כל עת התפילה וקריה”ת
    מ”ב סק”ד: וכתב הב”ח דצריך שיהא הטלית על ראשו מתחילת התפילה ועד סופה. שכיסוי זה מכניע לב האדם ומביאו לידי יראת שמים (- מ”ב בתחילת דבריו). מתחילת התפילה ועד סופה אין78 הכוונה רק על שמונה עשרה אלא מאדון עולם79 עד סוף התפילה, ומאד צריך להקפיד על כך כי עיטוף הראש בטלית בעת התפילה הגדירו הרדב”ז80 בכלל “מנהג אבותינו תורה”, והפוסקים התבטאו בלשונות חריפים על אלו שאין מקפידים על כיסוי ראשם בטלית, ואף עקב81 שהחום מעיק, שהם בגדר82 חצופים ומשחיתים ואין הם אלא קלי ראש, ועליהם83 הכתוב אומר (מלכים א’ י”ד ט’) ואותי השלכת אחר גוויך,
    וביותר צריך הש”ץ84 להקפיד על כך.
    ונכון להקפיד על כיסוי הראש בטלית גם בשעת85 קריאת התורה, וכלשון הב”ח “שראשו יהא מכוסה בטלית של מצוה כל שעה, שלא יהא רגע בגילוי
    הראש כל זמן שהטלית עליו, וכן הוא מנהג הצנועים”.

    #1795056

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “Joseph, cite a source that says that one may daven Shacharit when it is almost time for Mincha”

    Avi: Get your facts straight before questioning Reb Yosef. He is referring to a new and relatively contrarian hashkafah among some progressive yungerleit in response to those davening shachris vasikim. It began as a minhag during bein hazmanim to avoid having to make separate trips to the beis medrash for both schachris and mincha. This way they can go directly from birchas hayom at the end of shachris to Ashrei for mincha without missing a beat. Having established this time-saving minhag, it has now become popular even after the beginning of the new zman..

    #1795061

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    In SA O’CH 89,1 there is an argument if in the half hour after chatzos until mincha one can still daven shacharis badeoved.

    #1795089

    Avi K
    Participant

    In any case, I think that something is very wrong if there are two large minyanim doing that.

    #1795088

    Avi K
    Participant

    Eliezer,

    1. The Shulchan Aruch (OC 8:2) only says that it is “correct”. That it is to say, it is a good custom to be yotzi all opinions (Aruch haShulchan seif 6) . The Mishna Berura (s”k 4 says that someone who was never married should not.

    2. The SA says until chatzot. The Rema says that after chatzot it is prohibited. The Mishna Berura (s”k 7) brings the opinion you cited and rejects it with both hands. Even one second after chatzxot is too late. The Aruch haShulchan (seif 14) also says that after chatzot one may not daven Shacharit. Rather one should first daven Mincha and then daven tashlumim.

    #1795124

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avi, I have seen at Landau’s following the Taz’s view who says halacha lemaaseh that they davened Shacharis in the half hour after chatzos. Logically it makes sense that all the time of the day some tefila is available.

    #1795136

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    MB SA O’CH 233,14 It is better to daven beyechidus before shekiya than with a minyan after.

    #1795128

    ylevy613
    Participant

    Hagaon Harav Yosef Avraham Heller Shlita, the Rosh Kollel of Crown Heights, Brooklyn and former member of the Beis Din there, wrote a essay explaining the Halachic justification for davening after Chatzos, published in “Kobetz Beis Chayenu” 11 Nissan 5760 pg. 28. The crunch of the explanation is as follows:

    The Gemora (Brochos 26a) states that, “He may go on praying [Shachris] the whole day. But up to midday he is given the reward of saying the Tefillah in its proper time; thereafter he is given the reward of saying Tefillah, but not of saying Tefillah in its proper time.” Although the mainstream view in Rishonim is that of the Rashba that after Chatzos is only considered tashlumim if he accidently missed the time, the Perisha in OC Siman 89 cites an alternative view that even after Chatzos is still considered the time of davening Shachris but only that one would not receive the reward for davening on time. Rabbi Heller continues to back up this view based on many Rishonim that maintain that the time for Shachris is the entire day. Although this Prisha argues with the Mechaber and Rama, Rabbi Heller suggest that since it concurs with the view of many Rishonim, Chassidim relied on his ruling in order to have adequate kavana in their davening.

    There are also several letters of the Lubavitcher Rebbe on the topic collected in “Sharey Halacha U’Minhag” OC Chelek 1 pg. 111. The Rebbe brings the halacha (OC 98:2 and Rambam Hilchos Tefila 4:15-16) that proper kavanah during davening is integral to the davening, and without it the teffila is nullified. He asserts that therefore proper preparation for davening takes precedence over being exact in the time of davening.

    However, it must be stressed that all the above is only when one is involved in davening or it’s preparation from before zman tefila. There is no justification to begin davening after chatzos.

    In terms of an opinion that as long as one begins before zman tefilla they may continue even after, I heard that this comes from Tosfos in Brochos 7a “Sh’ilmaley”. The Gemora relates that Biliam tried to find the exact second Hashem was angry to curse the Jews, and Tosfos asks what he could have said in that short moment. In their second answer Tosfos says that as long as he would have started at a time of Divine anger the curse would work even after. Similarly, the “zman tefilla” follows when one begins even if he finishes after.
    Lubavitcher Chassidim learn chassidus for at least one hour and do hisbonenus (“meditation”) on gadlus Haboreh using the concepts explained in Chassidus. In general they are makpid to finish Shacharis before chatzos but few individuals who are real “Oivdim” may use this Heter with the guidance of a Mashpia.
    This is the Teshuva of Hagaon Harav Heller Shlita:
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48573&pgnum=36

    #1795169

    The little I know
    Participant

    הכון לקראת ה’ אלקיך

    While Chassidim appear to give this greater emphasis, the concept of preparing oneself for tefiloh applies to all. And there are different views of precisely what constitutes this הכנה. Among Chassidim, it is close to universal that going to mikvah is part of this הכנה. Others focus on Torah study, others, on tzedokoh. All of these are true, and the variability is by culture and minhag. It is quoted from the Sar Shalom of Belz that eating something before davening, if needed to provide one with the needed energy, is a mandated part of הכנה. He included even washing to bread. IO doubt that this was a psak given for the public, but the concept was clear. I suggest that the הכנה might be considered part of the tefiloh, and as long as this was begun in the requisite zman, one might be justified. Just an effort to find a bit of zechus, not my preference.

    However, what I witness is people arriving to shul hours late, then spending time schmoozing, drinking coffee, sometimes talking on their phones. And then they daven at quite late hours. Such scenes bother me. I cannot speak for Hashem, but I would be irritated by someone that prioritizes all these other activities and interests over mine.

    #1795175

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The above ruling of the MB causes sometimes not to have a minyan as people either daven beyechidus or rush out before the minyan arrives thus you don’t have six mispallelim.

    #1795180

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Piskei Teshuvas brings from Rav Akiva Eigar ztz’l to daven two shm’es with a tenai, if the first is shacharis the second is mincha, but if the first is mincha, the second is a hashloma for shacharis.

    #1795183

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We also see by shabbos (Nemukai Yosef in Bava Kama) that we go after the start of the work and saying yaleh veyovai so if we start davening before chatzos we can finish after, even according to the RMA.

    #1795290

    Avi K
    Participant

    1. All Rav Heller says is that it counts as a prayer. So he gets a merit but what about the demerit of not praying when the Halacha tells him to?

    2. As for preparation, what would a king say to someone who excused his chronic lateness for audiences by saying that he had to practice his speech? It was because of things like this that he Gra put them in cherem. BTW, in “All for the Boss” Ruchama Schein mentions that her father once asked a rebbe why he did not daven according to the zemanim. He replied that he was ill and was not able to daven on time. Rav Herman then asked what was the excuse of his chassidim. The rebbe replied “Chazal say that if someone has yirat Shemayim people listen to him. So you tell them”.

    3. Even if someone started before chatzot it would have to be an awfully long Amida to take him almost to Mincha time, especially in the summer. Perhaps they are dyslexic.

    #1795375

    Eliyahu Hanavi
    Participant

    i am not commenting about what to wear when infront of a king or monarch.. but one thing for sure, NO ONE WOULD DARE USE THIER PHONE IF THEY HAD A PRIVATE MEETING WITH TRUMP OR THE QUEEN. so why in shul during davening is it more acceptable… you can come to shul in jeans and a hoody just put that phone away and on SILENT…

    #1795379

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Our LOR spoke about the phone in his Shabbos Teshuva drasha.

    #1795406

    MDG
    Participant

    If the king said show up by 9, and you come at 11 with the excuse of getting ready. What that means is that you should have gotten up 2 hours earlier.

    #1795429

    The little I know
    Participant

    MDG:

    When someone is engaged in הכנות for tefilo, they are not using an excuse of “getting ready”. Rather, the הכנה is part of the עבודה, and they are in the presence of Hashem. I am not giving anyone a pass for davening late. As much as tefilo is a connection to Hashem, so is living life – if we are doing so in connection. Eating breakfast can be a mundane act, one in which we satisfy our hunger, or a action of seeking energy to be able to get through the first part of the day doing the service of Hashem. This can include anything from learning Torah to working – providing parnosoh to remain connected to Hashem through mitzvos. We can remain connected through many actions that can alternatively be self-serving. While I would hope that הכנות would begin earlier so that tefilo is conducted at the proper time, I still won’t discard actions that are centered around HKB”H with the intent to be closer to him.

    What you seem to miss is that HKB”H is present outside of the Beis Hamedrash. As the Rebbe of Kotzk once explained to his talmidim when he asked them where Hashem is, and they tried the lines of מלא כל הארץ כבודו, and לית אתר פנוי מיניה. He responded, “Wherever we let Him in.” If our preparation is with the true goal of Avodas Hashem, His presence exists with us throughout the process.

    #1795495

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Let us try to dan lekaf zechus and say that those who daven at a late hour are busy with hachana for two hours. Do any of the chasidic sources say that hachana needs to start at a late hour? Would they not agree that if you know you are going to need that much time for hachana then just start your day early?

    It also does not answer how this practice deals with missing the zman tefila. Even if you can say that bedieved the tefila works there is no question that they lose the schar for zman tefila.

    How did zman tefila become the OK thing to fudge for Orthodox Jews,? The issue is not so much the fact that some people wake up late and try to justify it. The issue seems to be more in the INSTITUTIONALIZING of it. Many from jews speak badly about reform and conservative Judaism (and rightly so) for also institutionalizing the disregard of various halachos. How is this any different?

    #1795503

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Let us try to dan lekaf zechus and say that those who daven at a late hour are busy with hachana for two hours.”

    Should we also try to dan lekaf zechus and say that those who daven at an early hour didn’t skip hachana ?

    #1795506

    Avi K
    Participant

    Eliahu, you are correct although some people have a tefilla app. It even pops up things like “Yaaleh v’Yavo” on the proper days. I did see one opinion though that if the phone part is not turned off it is like holding something other than a siddur while davening. While we are on that subject, what about people who hold small children while davening?

    #1795552

    Eliyahu Hanavi
    Participant

    Avi… holding a small child is holding a holy neshama, and by holding him you show him you love him and care for him. This is fine. Holding a phone though shows you care for the phone, and when your talking to Hashem you shouldnt be doing such things

    #1795556

    Joseph
    Participant

    Eli: Kissing a small child also shows love for him. Can you do that in shul?

    #1795623

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, holding is one thing, but kissing is another thing.

    #1795589

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    About kissing children in shul, see the RMA O”CH 98,1.

    #1795591

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Yaakov Avinu said krias shema when he saw Josef to show that his first love was to the Hashem.

    #1795632

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Josef
    Why would you need to be Dan likaf zechus those who Daven early?
    Are they doing something wrong??

    #1795633

    MDG
    Participant

    The little I know,

    My point is that if you have a chiyuv to do something by a certain time, figure out how to do it.

    Sure, many things are kodesh, but there are priorities.

    Waking up late and then claiming a need to eat before Davening is Aveira gorreret avairah.

    #1795647

    Joseph
    Participant

    KY, my response was a rhetorical reply to CTR’s assumption that those first having hachana prior to davening require dan lekaf zechus for starting to daven later as a result of the hachana.

    #1795763

    The little I know
    Participant

    MDG:

    I agree mostly, as my comments have stated several times. I would hope that one who requires longer time to prepare should start earlier. Where I am not as supportive to your comment is your labeling this as Aveira gorreret avairah. No, הכנה is a piece of Avodas Hashem. It is not an excuse, and using it so is not okay.

    #1795873

    Avi K
    Participant

    Eliahu, on the contrary, in shul it is prohibited to show love for anyone but Hashem (Rema, OC 98:1). Moreoevr, it is prohibited to hold anything other than a siddur because the person will concentrate on not dropping it rather than davening. This is even true in other parts of the service as it is disrespectful towards Hashem (Shulchan Aruch 96:1, Mishnah Berurah 96:1 and 5, based on Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah, Taz).

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