For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA

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  • This topic contains 331 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  Joseph 2 years ago.
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  • #612871

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    You didn’t want to hijack the other thread so here is your chance.

    #1045678

    No, I wanted to hijack that thread!! (now I’ll hijack yours)

    #1045679

    Thank you Patur for this platform.

    The way I see things from my corner over here, iyun is way overemphasized. I do not mean to chas veshalom say that iyun is unimportant, but I do believe more emphasis should be placed on mastery of large amounts of material.

    In my opinion, this is where the debate of iyun versus bekius comes into play. Bekius stresses the knowledge of large amounts of material, while iyun emphasized the depth of learning. The problem with iyun is that it is much harder to retain the knowledge one acquires due to the difficulty of remembering every diyuk. This is not the case with bekius. Although some gemaras are difficult even at a basic level, most gemaras are able to be grasped in a relatively short time.

    I believe that there are two types of iyun. (Rant Ahead)

    1) Asking logical questions on a certain peirush and questions on a peirush based on another text. I have nothing against this, and believe it to be very laudable and it gets the brain moving.

    2)Trying to understand why each rishon/acharon had to use every step that he did and say each word that he did. This is the type of iyun that I believe is WAY overdone. This style of learning is very recent, only about 200 years old, and I don’t really believe it is emes. I have a very hard time believing the underlying assumption that the Rishonim are malachim* and every word they wrote contains a chidush. As far as I know, no rishonim thought that there predecessors wrote like this, and nor do rishonim think that the gemara writes like this. Rishonim tend to ask logical questions and questions based on other texts, NOT questions about why the gemara/other rishonim used word X.

    Also, this approach completely takes away any validity of different writing styles. Do you people think that it is just a coincidence that the Tosfos Harosh often expresses the same idea as the regular tosfos, but more eloquently. I have heard way to many shiurim comparing the way tosfos and tosfos harosh present their shitas. The tosfos harosh is just a better writer than tosfos! There’s nothing wrong with saying that. Stop assuming things about the Rishonim which have no backing save for the past 200 years by Rabbonim who have never met the rishonim. Why in the world is it reasonable to assume that each Rishon has the same personality?

    This is what I feel is the problem with the type of iyun prevalent in yeshivas today.

    Bekius on the other hand is much easier to remember. I believe this has tremendous value, as the primary purpose of learning should be to lead to maaseh. (i.e aliba d’hilchasa). Knowing where dinim come from is tremendously valuable as well as imperative. One can be a baki on all of hilchos shoelaces and all of the reb chaims in the first perek of baba kama, and still not know the first thing about anything! Bekius ensures that you know at least everything decently well.

    Contrary to popular belief, bekius does not only have to consist of gemara and rashi. I also learn tosfos bekius as well as many other mefarshim and sefarim.


    *I have heard this quoted multiple times “Rishonim are malachim”.

    My Response: Chas V’Shalom! That’s kefira! Hashem did not put malachim on this world. He put people in this world. Nobody is perfect. You think that Rishonim didn’t have yetzer haras?!?!?!

    #1045680

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    *I have heard this quoted multiple times “Rishonim are malachim”.

    Either you heard wrong, misunderstood, or hang out with fools. Nobody says Rishonim were malachim. Even the expression “Im Rishonim k’malachim” is not referring specifically to talmidei chachamim following the Geonim, it’s an expression which refers to the relative greatness of previous generations. On that we do have a mesorah, so yes, we do tread very carefully when dealing with the words of the Rishonim.

    #1045681

    DY-I would be quite happy if it all was some great misunderstanding. I have heard it from different rabbonim, some quoting greater rabbonim who will remain nameless, although if I were to tell you, you would be shocked.

    #1045682

    I see no reason why we should not make diyukim based on the loshon of rishonim. lihavdil, in law, goyim parse words and analyze texts/court decisions. In fact, there is a huge machlokes over the second amendment, and much of that debate stems over how you make diyukim in the loshon of the amendment!

    #1045683

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, I wouldn’t be shocked, I would just eliminate possibility #3. 🙂

    #1045684

    the plumber
    Member

    Wow! It’s pulsing flower vs just about every yeshiva’s mesorah. I wonder who we should listen to? I wonder who we would consider crum? It’s very nice to have an opinion, but you can’t argue on mesorah.

    #1045685

    the plumber
    Member

    It makes a ton of sense. Tosefos harash had nothing better to do with his time than to rewrite tosefos.

    #1045686

    the plumber
    Member

    If there are any yeshiva guys on this coffee room please ignore that rant, trust your roshei yeshiva’s and rebbeim on this one. This poster is completely crum

    #1045687

    the plumber-its not really a mesorah. It all started in the past 200 years or so.

    And its not “just about every yeshiva’s mesorah”, Sephardim and Chasidim don’t learn like that.

    I have plenty of backing.

    #1045688

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    There is a place for Iyun, but not at the expense of bekius.

    ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????

    ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????

    #1045689

    MachaaMaker
    Member

    It’s a very new “mesorah” this is not how learning used to be done

    #1045690

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Excerpts from the Orchos Tzadikim’s rant:

    ????

    ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????

    ??? ???????? ?????? ???????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???

    ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????. ????

    ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ????

    ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ???????

    ???? ?????? ????? ?’ ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ???????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????

    #1045691

    MachaaMaker
    Member

    Also it’s one thing if you are going very beiyun to try to understand pshat but I agree that it’s overused to just try to make tiny diyukim and machloksin just for “doing names” (doing rishonim just for the sake of “doing beiyun”) not every nuance that a rishon says is for some whole chakirah which completely changes the landscape of the topic and begs huge chidushim

    #1045692

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    continued:

    ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???

    ??????? ??????? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???

    ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ???’ ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??????

    ??? ?????. ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????

    ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??????

    ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????

    ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????

    ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???

    ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???????

    ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ??????

    ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????

    ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????????

    ??????? ??????? ??????? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?’ ???? ???? ?????? ?’ ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??????’ ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?’ ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?’ ???? ? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???

    ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ???

    ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???

    ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????. ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???????

    ????? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???

    ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????. ???? ??? ??? ?????

    ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?????

    ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??????

    #1045693

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    continued:

    ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????????

    ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????

    ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ??

    ???????? ???????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????

    ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???

    ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???????? ????? ????? ???? ??????

    ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????????

    ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????

    ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????

    ??? ??????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???

    ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????

    ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??

    ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????

    ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????

    ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????

    ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??, ??? ?? ?????

    ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????

    ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???

    ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ????.

    #1045694

    the plumber
    Member

    Wow! Who would have thought this would happen on yeshiva world!

    You think yeshiva’s just made it up?

    Who are you? A shnook from monsey?

    You’re arguing with every big rosh yeshiva in the nation! With the support if chassidim!? They do everything there own way!

    The rishonim and achronim are just writing for nothing?

    Iyun, the way we do it today, teaches us how to learn.

    You can rant all day, but you are nothing compared.

    And just remember, if you turn people of because of your stupidity…

    #1045695

    the plumber
    Member

    You are crum. You probably don’t have a rebbe to guide you. I hope you don’t give this crumkeit over to your kids.

    Hashem should give them abracha to not get this ridiculousness in their heads.

    #1045696

    jbaldy22
    Member

    already quoted the maharal in nesiv hatorah in a different thread a while back on the subject. copying it from hebrewbooks doesnt seem to be working so here is a link to the page if the mods let it. Its in the fifth perek.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14202&hilite=3c7e358f-5b68-4b12-8193-3da2cfa24bfe&st=%D7%A4%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%99&pgnum=28

    #1045697

    be’iyun helps you learn how to think like chazal, how to approach sugyos by applying chakiras/shas topics/your own chiddushim and other modes of analysis. If all you do in learning is race through sugyos, it will be harder to achieve real ameilus batorah since you’re only trying to cover ground and not focusing on keeping track of all the deios or chapping a machlokes rishonim.

    #1045698

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    the Plumber:

    Read the Orchos Tzadikim Shaar Hatorah (I posted excerpts but they didn’t get approved yet).

    Read the Maharal Tiferes Yisrael perek 56.

    Read the Hakdama to the Chayei Adam.

    Read R’ Shach’s writings.

    And more…

    #1045701

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    In case my quote of the Orchos Tzadikim never gets through here is the link to heebrewbooks

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38360&st=&pgnum=161

    read until the end of the shaar.

    #1045702

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Read the Pele Yoetz asupah, girsa, and limud.

    Read the Chofetz Chaim Likutei Amarim perek 4-5.

    #1045703

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????

    (Eruvin 48a)

    ?? ???

    ??????? ???? ???. ????? ???? ??

    ?? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???

    ?????

    (Rashi there)

    #1045704

    Thank you patur.

    #1045705

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Gemara clearly states that Sinai is better than Oker Harim. It’s a machlokes between the Pri Megadim and R’ Shlomo Kluger in O.C. 136 whether that is still true, due to the proliferation of sefarim.

    #1045706

    Here is the maharal tiferes yisrael that patur aval assur wuoted above.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=42867&st=&pgnum=335&hilite=

    #1045707

    Fight it out, guys. Call me back into the bais medrash when either declares total complete and unanimous victory.

    Until then I’ll blog away!!!

    #1045708

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I’m amused when people throw around the term ” mesorah”. Most people don’t know what their great grandparents did. They have no concept of Jewish history and assume Eastern European mesora is the only one. They think the current yeshiva/kolel system has always existed, that the order and content of tefilah has never changed. Mesorah is important to many people except when it’s not. The founders of Chassidus had no problem throwing away centuries of minhagim and nisuch.

    #1045709

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    In Slabodka:

    “Half of each day would be devoted to iyyun (in-depth research) which covered approximately 75 gemara dappim (folios) during each term, and the other half was utilized for gaining general knowledge in the Talmud and Codes.”

    R’ Yitchak Shurin discussed with his grandfather (R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky) the change in how Yeshivos learn today in which they do far fewer blatt. R’ Yaakov responded “In my day, we believed that Aba’yeh and Rava were right. If we did not comprehend for the moment the reason behind what they said, we left it for the next time we would learn Shas. Nowadays we are all scientists, and our minds must test the flawlessness of each argument in the gemara as soon as it is presented. Is it a wonder that we stay on one page for so long?”

    (Quotes written by by R’ Nathan Kamenetzky)

    #1045710

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Yaakov also said “It was impossible to catch any of the 300 rabbanim in Lithuania on any Gemara passage in Shas: one was more lamdan and one less, but not knowing a gemara…!”

    R’ Shurin told R’ Yaakov that his Rebbi said that only the prodigies in Slabodka could maintain such a pace, and that if one had to make a choice between broad knowledge and lomduth, the latter took primacy. R’ Yaakov responded “? ???? ???? ? ???? ???? how can one say a ???? without knowing gemara?!”

    R’ Mordechai Shain quoted from R’ Yaakov “We learned and we reviewed. We sought to know what the gemara was saying, not to find problems”

    (Also from R’ Nathan Kamenetzky)

    #1045711

    the plumber
    Member

    I’m not arguing the point if bekiyus vs iyun. I’m arguing that diyukim in rishonim and achronim are within our mesorah. Saying otherwise is basically admitting you are an am haaretz, which I have no doubt you obviously are.

    There is nothing else to really talk about. There is something called daas torah, which you don’t have. The way we are doing things does have it.

    Next thing you know, you’re gonna say unfiltered internet is okay…

    #1045712

    What’s wrong with unfiltered internet? I’ve never heard anybody say anything against it.

    What could possibly be the problem? The internet is very kosher in its raw state.

    #1045713

    If I’m an am haaretz, I won’t die. I don’t go to a JCC.

    #1045714

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “I’m not arguing the point if bekiyus vs iyun. I’m arguing that diyukim in rishonim and achronim are within our mesorah. Saying otherwise is basically admitting you are an am haaretz, which I have no doubt you obviously are.”

    By definition you are arguing the point of iyun vs. bekius because every moment spent doing one is a moment not spent doing the other. Now I have no problem with making diyukim in Rishonim and acharonim. But if you spend the majority of your learning time doing that you will never get anywhere and you won’t know anything. I have personally seen people hocking for a long time on these things when the it’s an explicit gemara one page away.

    See the quotes that I have posted. The Gemara is very clear. You are supposed to first gain a breadth of knowledge before deep iyun. The Orchos Tzadikim and Maharal are even more clear. See what I posted about R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky and how they used to learn in Europe. I have no problem if people want to revamp the system. But when there are people who are learning the way the Gemara,Rishonim, and Acharonim describe, and you call them krum and stupid and against the mesorah…

    #1045715

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “There is something called daas torah, which you don’t have. The way we are doing things does have it.”

    If you want to talk about Daas Torah, we should probably start a new thread.

    #1045716

    the plumber
    Member

    There is no possible discussion for daas torah, it is right, if you don’t believe that, I don’t know what to tell you.

    I read orchos tzadikim shaar torah, and yes, he does say that we forget to learn gemora these days, but if you were to read the entire shaar, and not pick a nd chose you would realize that he says we don’t understand the gemara, so the way to do that is through rishonim and achronim.

    I am not arguing iyun vs bekiyus, they are both very important, I don’t feel I am on a madreiga to decide which one is “better”.

    And as pulsing flower said, the tosefos harash is not just a “better writer” than tisefos. That’s ridiculous. Top think rishonim are just wasting their time is basically apikorses.

    This thread should end, being that if yeshiva guys were to read this they can be turned off by a bunch of stupid posters who think they know everything.

    #1045717

    Translation of of part of the maharals rant:

    People believe that one can develop into a Torah scholar only through the mental gymnastics of pilpul, which posits theories of halakha and then analyzes these empty contrived hypotheses. They create new explanations of Torah that are unfounded, claiming that this method is necessary to sharpen the mind. How can they think like that? A person should tear his heart out over this practice of turning truth into falsehood in order to sharpen the mind! Such a thing should not be found in Israel – to sharpen the mind with falsehood or to even spend time on falsehood – for the Torah is a Torah of truth. Indeed, as a result, they become more foolish, rather than wiser. It would be better to learn carpentry or another trade, or to sharpen the mind by playing chess. At least they would not engage in falsehood, which then spills over from theory and into practice…

    #1045718

    jbaldy22
    Member

    the plumber

    the gedolim of yesteryear are actually very clear about which one is more important. I remember a pamphlet coming out a while back from R Binyamin Fuerst with haskomos from basically all of the gedolim of the time advocating a change in the system to include more bekius. I assume it isn’t done because bochurim these days cant handle it.

    “There is no possible discussion for daas torah,”

    Ask your rav about that one or search the cr for the many times this topic has come up.

    #1045719

    And as pulsing flower said, the tosefos harash is not just a “better writer” than tisefos. That’s ridiculous. To think rishonim are just wasting their time is basically apikorses.

    Why is that apikorsus? Show me in the 13 ani maamins, or in the sefer haikarim, or anywhere else that this is apikorus. Why is it apikorsus to believe that certain individuals were granted more talent than others? Do you think that John Q. Jew living in the 1200s has the same skills as rashi? Is it apikorsus to not believe that as well?

    No. So why should it make a difference if John Q. Jew is Rabeinu Tam or your Yankel Am Haaretz-they don’t have the same skills as Rashi?! (Note:Rashi was picked as an arbitrary example)

    Just becasue the Rishonim lived awhile ago does not mean they are perfect. The reason that we highly value their words is because they are closer to the authentic mesora. Not because they are naturally smarter or better writers.

    Also, I never said that the Rishonim were wasting their time. If anything it would be a waste of their time to go over their manuscript 50 times to make sure every word contains some huge chidush, which they don’t. In your worldview though, they probably wrote whatever they wanted the first time with no editing, because editing implies that they are human which is blatant kefirah.

    This thread should end, being that if yeshiva guys were to read this they can be turned off by a bunch of stupid posters who think they know everything.

    You have it backward. If the only method to learn was the method that you described I would have stopped learning all together. And for a while I was considering that. But when I realized than in order to learn, I did not have to make illogical assumptions, I once again began to enjoy learning. (I am not saying that learning is not a chiyuv if you don’t like it-L’fum Tzaara agra)

    #1045720

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    the Plumber:

    “There is no possible discussion for daas torah, it is right, if you don’t believe that, I don’t know what to tell you.”

    I’m not arguing whether it is right or not (at least not yet). But can you define it for me?

    Regarding the Orchos Tzadikim, which part of ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???

    ??????? ??????? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???

    ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ???’ ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??????

    ??? ?????. ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????

    ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??????

    ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????

    ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????

    ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???

    was unclear?

    #1045721

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “And as pulsing flower said, the tosefos harash is not just a “better writer” than tisefos. That’s ridiculous. Top think rishonim are just wasting their time is basically apikorses.”

    I never said that I agree with PulsingFlower on everything. I also don’t think that PulsingFlower thinks that Rishonim were wasting their time.

    #1045722

    There is no possible discussion for daas torah, it is right, if you don’t believe that, I don’t know what to tell you.

    The discusion would be reguarding these issues:

    1) How much Torah do you need to know to have daas Torah?

    2)Are different level of daas Torah relevant?

    3)If somebody has daas Torah but also has a secular education, would you consider his words to be solely based on torah? (That’s what daas torah is)

    4)What are the sources for daas Torah: Why does it make sense that just because somebody knows Torah, he also knows psychology and how your finances should run, and what you should invest in…etc….

    #1045723

    Side note:

    Dear Patur Aval Assur,

    I am astonished at your breadth of knowledge. Truly incredible.

    #1045724

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “I am not arguing iyun vs bekiyus, they are both very important, I don’t feel I am on a madreiga to decide which one is “better”.”

    I don’t feel that I am on a madreiga to decide which is beter either. But I can point you to sources who discuss it. Let’s put it this way: Can you provide any source in the Gemara, Rishonim, or Acharonim which says that one should make his main focus iyun when he does not yet have bekius? If you can do both simultaneously (i.e. serious iyun while still covering a lot of ground) then that is great. But I don’t think that is the metzius we are discussing.

    #1045725

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    And to clarify again, I am not telling you how you should learn, I am simply showing that the “krum stupid posters who go against mesorah” actually do have basis for the way they learn.

    #1045726

    Little Froggie-it may be safe to return. The smoke is rising and my vision is beginning to become clearer.

    Actually, cancel that. Remain where you are.

    #1045728

    the plumber
    Member

    I just hope no yeshiva guys are on this thread…

    Baal habaatim should stay as baal habaatim and not try t to uproot the way our yeshiva’s (who obviously have the actual haskama of the gedolim, not just their gabbaim signing off) are doing things.

    I know plumbing, when I do work in yeshiva’s the rebbeim don’t try to change the way I do things in the plumbing, I ,like all of us baal habaatim should not either.

    #1045729

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Regarding Tosafos Harosh:

    ????? ????’ ???”? ????? ????’ ??

    ??? ???”? ??? ?? ?????? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????’ ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???”?

    (From R’ Dovid Sinzheim, Sheva Chakiros

    1745-1812)

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