For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA

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  • #1045780
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Pele Yoetz (Section entitled Asupa)

    ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ???????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????

    ?????? ????? ???? ??????

    #1045781

    Could I come back into bais medrash yet??

    MODs – when I get back into bais medrash, I too will copy and paste everything I come across at (random and) abandon.

    #1045782

    I think it might be safe.

    #1045783

    The Rambam also says that gaavah is the one midah where you have to go ?? ??? ??????

    It’s actually one of two midos. The other being anger.

    Although now that you have raised this stirah, I am quite interested in an answer. I’ll go look at the nosei keilim.

    #1045784

    Young talmidim should try their utmost to use the years of their youth, the prime years to grow in Torah learning, to acquire vast amounts of knowledge

    I don’t really understand this because the Gemara (chagiga 14a) says ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????. I know that he is not making it up because there is special emphasis given to limuda d’yankusa. (Also in the mishna in avod-niar machuk etc..)

    #1045785

    Knowing the shakla v’tarya of a Gemara is barely even skimming a sugya. It is superficial to the extreme – as far as knowing the sugya is concerned.

    It worked for the baalie gemara, it works for me.

    For many years I’ve been making a point, and was recently gratified to find it in published letter by R’ Shimshon Pinkus.

    He says that it is rare for a bachur to succeed by trying to work out of the yeshiva system.

    And he says there’s really no reason to! Put aside the system of learning, its reasons and justifications. Any serious bachur can find enough time in his day for any seder he’d like – bekius, nach, halacha – without taking away from the yeshiva schedule. How long does it take to learn (and even chazer) daf yomi?!

    So no one can blame their lack of knowledge on the system.

    Certain Yeshivos encourage this, and very few discourage it.

    That’s ridiculous! The point of any educational system, including the yeshiva system, is to educate. Saying they can learn if they want, does not cut the mustard! That’s like saying why teach math for the regents, if the student cares he can learn it himself!

    Also, daf yomi? That’s one daf a day. That is way below many yeshiva bachurim’s potential. To finish shas once while in yeshiva is not that impressive.

    #1045786
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Well the Orchos Tzadikim (last paragraph of shaar hagaava) seems to say that you only have to go ?? ??? ?????? until you uproot the midah and then you can fall back the ??? ????????.

    Back to Bekius vs Iyun, should the Defense rest its case or need more evidence be brought?

    #1045787

    no lets keep this going it’s loads of [email protected]!

    #1045788

    Back to Bekius vs Iyun, should the Defense rest its case or need more evidence be brought?

    Time will tell.

    #1045789
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “I don’t really understand this because the Gemara (chagiga 14a) says ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????. I know that he is not making it up because there is special emphasis given to limuda d’yankusa. (Also in the mishna in avod-niar machuk etc..)”

    I think R’ Shteinman just meant that your youth is the best/easiest time to learn based on the mishnah in avos which you in fact quoted.

    #1045790
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Back to the sources:

    ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????

    ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????

    (Sanhedrin 42a)

    ?????? ?? ???? – ???????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??

    (Rashi there)

    #1045791
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shu”t Mishneh Halachos (8:247)

    ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???’ ??? ???? ???? ????? ????, ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????, ??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????, ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? “??? ???? ???? ???? ??????” ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????

    #1045792
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    There is a story in the biography of R’ Baruch Ber in which as a young child he asked a question in shiur which the Gemara later in that masechta addresses. The Rebbe berated him for asking a question that was a befairush gemara. R’ Baruch Ber went home and cried and took upon himself to not go back to shiur until he had learned all of Shas, which he then did.

    #1045793
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Chofetz Chaim (Likutei Amarim perek 4)

    ????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?”? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????

    #1045794
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Chofetz Chaim (Likutei Amarim perek 5)

    ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????

    #1045795
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Summary of sources discussing bekius so far:

    Shabbos 63a with Rashi

    Eruvin 48a with Rashi

    Sanhedrin 42a with Rashi

    Avodah Zara 19a with Rashi

    Medrash Mishlei 10

    Orchos Tzadikim Shaar Hatorah

    Maharal Tiferes Yisroel Perek 56

    Maharsha Bava Metzia 85a

    Maadnei Yom Tov Hakdama

    Chayei Adam Hakdama Acharona

    Even Shlaima 8:2

    He’aros ??

    Pele Yoetz Asupa

    Pele Yoetz Girsa

    Ohr Yisrael Iggeres 27

    Chofetz Chaim Likutei Amarim perek 4

    Chofetz Chaim Likutei Amarim perek 5

    Shu”t Mishneh Halachos 8:247

    R’ Baruch Ber Leibowitz

    R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky

    R’ Elazar Menacham Man Shach

    R’ Moshe Chevroni

    R’Aharon Yehuda Leib Shteinman

    #1045796
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Of particular interest are the claims

    “just about every yeshiva’s mesorah”

    “every big rosh yeshiva in the nation”

    when we see what five of the leading Roshei Yeshivos of their generations actully had to say on the matter.

    #1045797
    Logician
    Participant

    It worked for the baalie gemara, it works for me.

    You are seriously off your rocker, that’s all I can say. So Ravina and Rav Ashi just had the words of the gemara they recorded ?

    How should bekius (at least your understanding) be taught ? You just sit and read! And use basic skills you already have. Iyun needs training. The only question you can have is if they give enough time. That we can debate.

    To finish shas once while in yeshiva is not that impressive.

    Do we have the same Shas ? If you learn (and even chazer) the daf for and hour or two day, would you be ready to be tested on Shas ? Once again, I spend my time among many extremely smart, talented Talmidei Chachamim, and the idea that finishing Shas with decent retention is not a big deal is simply laughable.

    Which does leave us – as I agree – that everyone is capable of much more bekius knowledge, and it should be done.

    when we see what five of the leading Roshei Yeshivos of their generations actually had to say on the matter.

    And yet their lesser peers, who worship their every word, oddly enough did not change the way their yeshivos learn! And wait – in their OWN Yeshivos it’s not so much different. Hmn…

    #1045798
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “no lets keep this going it’s loads of [email protected]!”

    It would be more fun if there would be someone arguing back at me.

    #1045799
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz:

    I have been meaning to post this quote for a while but I couldn’t find the sefer until now – it’s in Darchei Chaim chelek 1 Perek 14.(He is referring to the Gemara in Sanhedrin that I quoted above)

    ???? ???’ ??? ??????? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? “????” ?????? ???????? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??”? ???? “????? ????? ??? ????” ??? ????? ????? ????”? (?”? ???’ ?”? ??”? ???”?) ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?????

    However, he does not advocate speed reading through shas. Read the whole perek to see how one should learn a sugya with the Rishonim and Acharonim.

    #1045800

    So Ravina and Rav Ashi just had the words of the gemara they recorded

    If they had more to say, why didn’t they?

    Rav Chaim said about the nosei keilim on the Rambam that the Rambam never meant most of the chidushim that they say in the rambam’s name. No difference here. (Yes, I know that R’ Chaim also said that the nosei keilim still count as torah. If you could explain that line to me, I would be very happy.) Either way, just becasue the chidushim count as torah, does not mean that it is the best use of one’s time to study that type of torah.

    How should bekius (at least your understanding) be taught ? You just sit and read! And use basic skills you already have. Iyun needs training.

    So you are saying that we should design the curriculum of the yeshivas based on the fact that rebbeim will have no job? Not a primary concern.

    If you learn (and even chazer) the daf for and hour or two day, would you be ready to be tested on Shas ?

    No. That’s why I would do it WAY more than 2 hours a day.

    #1045801
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “And yet their lesser peers, who worship their every word, oddly enough did not change the way their yeshivos learn! And wait – in their OWN Yeshivos it’s not so much different. Hmn…”

    While it is not my job to justify why people don’t follow the Roshei Hayshiva, I would venture to postulate that there is simple reason: The style of Iyun is enjoyable – klerring chakiros and zugging chiddushim. It is stimulating and does not particularly require being ???? ????. Whereas gaining and retaining broad knowledge of shas is tedious, hard, repetitive, and requires extreme diligence. It is therefore much easier and geshmak to learn Iyun.

    #1045802
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Also, I already posted earlier R’ Yaakov’s explanation for the change in learning.

    #1045803
    Logician
    Participant

    Yes, I know that R’ Chaim also said that the nosei keilim still count as torah. If you could explain that line to me, I would be very happy

    Let’s see. Could it possibly be related to the idea you’ve rejected, and I’ve quoted an explicit Ohr Zarua about, that (some?) Rishonim wrote with more than just their own sechel ? [As far as nosei keilim – I’m only aware of this idea being applied to Rishonim. I doubt anyone would say it too far down the line].

    So you are saying that we should design the curriculum of the yeshivas based on the fact that rebbeim will have no job?

    No, I’m saying nothing of the sort. Simply explaining why its not part of any curriculum per se. I already said that I agree that time allocated is up for debate.

    While it is not my job to justify why people don’t follow the Roshei Hayshiva, I would venture to postulate that there is simple reason: The style of Iyun is enjoyable…

    I was not talking about the hamon am, but clearly referred to the Roshei Yeshiva setting policy. Despite the call of the gedolim you mentioned, most do not follow suit – nor are their own yeshivos so different.

    #1045804
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Despite the call of the gedolim you mentioned, most do not follow suit”

    People have been ignoring the calls of gedolim for as long as gedolim have been making calls. Regarding the (current) Roshei Yeshiva, perhaps they feel that kids these days can’t handle the original method of learning, or perhaps they don’t want to cause an uprising or any number of other reasons. Maybe it’s easier for the Roshei Yeshiva to give shiurim with this method.

    #1045805
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv:

    “Contemporary yeshivos typically delve into the first part of the masechta they are studying and do not complete it. Rav Elyashiv was diametrically opposed to this. He learned and reviewed every masechta methodically from cover to cover in that way acquiring his incredible proficiency in the entire Torah. He wouldn’t learn in a cursory manner without delving into each sugya; he learned every page of Gemara in depth. When studying the Gemara and the Rishonim, Rav Elyashiv would investigate every facet of the concepts and determine the practical halachic position of each Rishon’s explanation as it compared to and contrasted with those of the other Rishonim. In fact, when he studied any Rishon or Acharon, he would not continue to another sugya until he had analyzed their respective approaches, from the underlying principles all the way to the practical halacha.”

    (Artscroll Biography)

    #1045806
    Logician
    Participant

    So Ravina and Rav Ashi just had the words of the gemara they recorded

    “If they had more to say, why didn’t they?”

    I hope you’re not serious. Put aside any of the chiddushim of today that you’re not happy about. Or from the past few hundred years, for that matter. Did all of the Rishonim make up silly pilpulim too? ‘cuz there’s a heck of a lot that they put into the gemara’s words which is not at all explicit too. And don’t start with that nonsense that they weren’t medayek in their lashonos – you’re just showing that you’ve either never learned or never understood Rishonim at all.

    PAA – I assume you’re showing from your last quote that he felt you need to learn the whole mesechta to properly understand. I think the implication clearly is, though, that he’s specifically referring to learning in depth. Superficial knowledge of dafim, just to be able to reference a question from another gemara on your own, without needing to see the tosafos or rashba do so first, is in no way related to that quote.

    #1045807
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Logician:

    I never said how you should learn. I’m just saying how you shouldn’t learn.

    #1045808

    On a related matter, what should the goal of learning be? What should one try to achieve? I am not asking how to learn, but rather what is the goal.

    #1045809
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    To master Torah. ???? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??, ?? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????

    #1045810

    And that quote is from….

    #1045811
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    the word for quote is from the hakdama to the Sh”a but he is paraphrasing from various gemaras for example kiddushin the bottom of 30a to the top of 30b

    #1045812
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    After a nice discussion about how pilpul/charifus without having bekius is pretty much worthless (but it is too long for me to quote word for word now, maybe some other time) the Levush Mordechai in his hakdama to Bava Kamma writes:

    ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??”? ????? ????

    #1045813
    Sam2
    Participant

    PAA: I believe that a Rebbe in KBY is famous for saying something along the lines that the Olam HaYeshivos hold of Daas Torah for R’ Shach’s every word-except his opinion on what he knew the most about, Talmud Torah!

    #1045814
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Maharal (Chiddushei Aggados Sanhedrin p.???)

    ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????. ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ???

    ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????

    Sam2: I like it.

    #1045815
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Maharal (Nesivos Olam Nesiv Hatorah Chapter 5):

    ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????(????? ??? ???) ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????

    #1045816
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    More from the Maharal (??):

    ???? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???????

    ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???

    #1045817
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ????? ??? ???? ??? ?’ ??????

    #1045818
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Related to the debate of iyun vs. bekius (Letter from the Seridei Eish):

    ????? ?? ????? ?? ????”? ?????????? ?? ???? ????”? ??”?. ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????. ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???. ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??, ??? ???? ??”? ????? ?????. ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?”? ???”? ????? ?? ?? ?”? ?’ ???? ?????? ??”?. ??? ?????? ?? ?’ ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?”? ?????? ???????. ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???, ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??, ???”? ???? ??”? ????”? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? “??????” ?? ??????? ?? ?’ ???? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ??. ????? ??? ??? ?? ????”? ?????? ??????: ?? ???? ???: ???”? ??????? ?? ?’ ???? ??????? ???? ????: ?? ????? ????? ?’ ???? ???? ?? ????”?. ??? ?? ?? ????. ???”? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??????, ??? ?? ?’ ????. ?????? ???????’ ???? ??????? ?? ????? ???’ ??? ????? ????”?. ?’ ???? ??’ ???????? ???”? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????”?. ?? ????? ?????? ?’ ??? ?”? ???’ ?? ???”?? ????”?.

    #1045819

    why do you keep posting mekoros to back up your position long after people have stopped debating you. mima nafshach, either you’re just right, or people find you so annoying that they don’t engage you in conversation anymore.

    #1045820

    why do you keep posting mekoros to back up your position long after people have stopped debating you. mima nafshach, either you’re just right, or people find you so annoying that they don’t engage you in conversation anymore.

    #1045821
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I presume that eventually some of the dissenters might make there way back in here. This way they’ll have a present waiting for them.

    #1045822
    Ash
    Participant

    PAA: I’m enjoying your collection of maarei mekomos. Keep them coming!

    With regards to how yeshivos learn: In Gateshead as in many large yeshivos two or of three sedorim are bekios. The other iyun seder still has much value even if bochurim could be learning even more bekius. Why?

    Most men, after leaving full-time learning do not do iyun. Whether it’s the daf or your own schedule or shiur it’s normally bekius or much closer to bekius than iyun. So if we wouldn’t learn one iyun seder in yeshiva then most of us would never know that geshmak that is a Steipler or Reb Chaim. We would also not learn how to learn a rishon properly.

    I do think it’s a fair critique that bochurim don’t cover enough ground in bekius (i.e. those two sedorim), much less allocate proper time for chazuroh. Sugyos properly absorbed as such a relatively young age will remain embedded for life.

    #1045823
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “I do think it’s a fair critique that bochurim don’t cover enough ground in bekius (i.e. those two sedorim), much less allocate proper time for chazuroh. Sugyos properly absorbed as such a relatively young age will remain embedded for life.”

    Chazara is of the utmost importance. As the Gra writes (brought in Even Sheleima 8:7):

    ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????

    This is similar to the Gemara in Avoda Zara (19a):

    ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????

    as Rashi explains:

    ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????

    Interestingly, this Gemara is perhaps the source for not following Talmudic advice on how to learn – ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????

    however see Tosafos and the Maharsha.

    #1045824
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “PAA: I’m enjoying your collection of maarei mekomos. Keep them coming!”

    Thank you.

    “Most men, after leaving full-time learning do not do iyun. Whether it’s the daf or your own schedule or shiur it’s normally bekius or much closer to bekius than iyun. So if we wouldn’t learn one iyun seder in yeshiva then most of us would never know that geshmak that is a Steipler or Reb Chaim. We would also not learn how to learn a rishon properly.”

    I agree that Iyun is an important part of learning but it has to be balanced with the acquisition of broad knowledge.

    #1045825
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    I’d like to make a few points:

    1. This is an age-old discussion. The gemara of “oker harim” and “sinai” implies that both methods are valid.

    2. One can make the case that a “sinai” in the days of abundant seforim and electronic resources – while remaining important – is less so.

    3. The modern day yeshivos (for good reason) focus on making learning fun (read: “geshmak”). The sources above are seemingly focused on the objectively best method to acquire genuine torah knowledge. They may agree that an “eis la’asos laShem” type mentality applies nowadays.

    4. Generally, quantity vs. quality is always a legitimate discussion. Both are necessary. Either one when taken to an extreme is silly.

    5. One can acquire, review, and retain plenty of new information within an iyun-type seder, showing that the two ideas have vague boundaries.

    #1045826
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    This is ridiculous. This thread was obviously meant to be a rant, and instead it’s an argument. Almost a discussion.

    #1045827
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    frumnotyeshivish:

    1.The Oker Harim of the Gemara is someone who has broad bekius, but his specialty is oker harim as opposed to knowing by heart every single statement ever made.

    2.I already mentioned earlier in this thread that this is a machlokes between the Pri Megadim and R’Shlomo Kluger (although they were not quite discussing electronic resources)

    3.I agree that they are probably trying to make it geshmak. But I wouldn’t quite call it an eis laasos. With the proper guidance and motivation, it can be done.

    4&5.It’s not a question of extremes. What the Maharal, Orchos Tzadikim, R’ Shach etc. were lamenting (read their actual words, they are literally crying that Torah will be forgotten this way) was the primary focus on iyun before attaining knowledge of shas (and also that sometimes the methods of iyun are pilpulim shel sheker). Everyone agrees that at some point you have to delve deeply into Torah and know how to be medameh milsa l’milsa and be mechadesh answers – but it has to be at the right time and using proper methods of Torah study.

    #1045828
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    (??? ????? (?????:

    Seeing as the relevant part is several pages long, I won’t post the actual quote, but here is the link (starting from the paragraph ??? until and including the paragraph ???? two pages later.)

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37184&st=&pgnum=8 And also see the last page of the ????? for more about learning.

    #1045829
    Chortkov
    Participant

    R’ Chaim Oizer Gurvitz Shlit”a spoke in Gateshead Yeshiva last Friday night for 50 minutes about the Ma’alah of Limud BeIyun and how that is the Ikar Limud of Torah, and he had some very choshuve mareh mekomos!! (Gemoros, Rishonim, Chasasam Soifer, Gr”a, R’ Yerucham)

    He said over that when he was in Brisk, he was one of 10 Bochurim selected to join a special va’ad from R’ Yoshe Ber zt”l, and the first four days he gave them over a Derech HaLimud he learnt from the Brisker Rav. The first thing he said was that “Learn Iyun all day – Morning, Afternoon, Night seder” – but “Learn a daf Gemara, Rashi, Tosfos every day Bein Hasdorim”!

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