For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA

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  • #1045830

    benignuman
    Participant

    To add to Frumnotyeshivish’s points. Bekiyus if one does not know how to learn is of little value today (b/c seforim are widely available). The theory behind the modern Yeshiva system, as I understand it, is that we go slow in order to teach the Talmidim how to learn. As they get older they will be able to learn faster and faster until they can start covering a lot of ground while maintaining a high level of understanding.

    In other words, the extreme iyun today is meant to be temporary. For example, many boys will learn very slowly in America and then go to the Mir in Yerushalayim and finish two large mesechtos a year.

    #1045831

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Widely available seforim doesn’t help all that much if you don’t read them. Very often you won’t even know that there is some yedia that you are missing that you should be looking up. In his Teshuva about women wearing Tefillin, R’ Hershel Shachter mentions how with the proliferation of Otzar Hachachma and Bar Ilan, everyone thinks they’re a baki. He says over the joke that the Yerushalmi (in the beginning of the fourth perek of Demai) says that an am ha’aretz has ???? ??? ???? because on Shabbos he can’t use the computer so people will realize that he is actually an am ha’aretz.

    #1045832

    which mod changed the title? big skoyach cause thats hilarious!

    100, thank you.

    #1045833

    benignuman
    Participant

    PAA,

    You are missing the point. I am not saying that bekiyus isn’t important, rather I am saying that constant chazarah and perfect recall is not AS important as it once was.

    I have seen that line from Rabbi Shachter. This doesn’t take away from my point that bekiyus when you don’t know how to learn is not worth very much.

    #1045834

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “bekiyus when you don’t know how to learn is not worth very much.”

    You can’t know how to learn without bekius. See the quote that I posted from R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/for-pulsing-flower-to-rant-about-iyun#post-523328

    #1045835

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You can’t know how to learn without understanding what you’re learning.

    So I guess nobody knows how to learn.

    #1045836

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “You can’t know how to learn without understanding what you’re learning.

    So I guess nobody knows how to learn.”

    I’m not sure how your second statement follows from your first.

    #1045837

    benignuman
    Participant

    PAA,

    I believe you are either misunderstanding me or misunderstanding Reb Yaakov. Reb Yaakov is referring to a “Talmud Chochom,” like a Rosh Yeshiva, who is giving shiurim or publishing chiddushim without being well versed in Shas and poskim.

    I am referring to a bochur in high school and early bais medrash who is just getting going in his learning career.

    #1045838

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ” Reb Yaakov is referring to a “Talmud Chochom,” like a Rosh Yeshiva, who is giving shiurim or publishing chiddushim without being well versed in Shas and poskim.”

    NOt at all. He was talking about the difference between how young lads learn nowadays and how young lads learned in Slabodka.

    #1045839

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Pele Yoetz (Section entitled Yesod; this quote might actually be more relevant to Roshei Yeshiva unlike the quotes from R’ Yaakov):

    ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ????????? ?????? ???????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????

    ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????

    ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??????

    ??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??????

    ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?????

    #1045840

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Ok so here’s the actual text of the Gur Aryeh that I mentioned before:

    ??????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ???????? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? (?”? ??? ??.) ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?”? ?????? (???? ?, ??) ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?’ ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??????? [?]?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?’ ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? (??? ?)’???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???’ ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ????? (??? ???.) ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???????? ???? ?????

    ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???????? ???????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??”? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? (???? ?? ?”?) ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ????? ????????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? (?”? ??.) ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????????? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ???????? ??????? ??? ?????

    #1045841

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shulchan Aruch Harav Hilchos Talmud Torah 2:1:

    ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????

    #1045842

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    And now for the Kli Yakar’s rant (Amudei Shesh Amud Hatorah):

    ?????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???

    ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???????

    ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ??????? ????? ??????? ???? ????

    ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???

    ????? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?????

    #1045843

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shu”t Shevet Halevi 2:57:

    ???? ???? ?? ???? ???”? ????? ??’ ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????

    ????? ????? ?”? ?????? ??? ?”? ?”? ?????? ????? ????’ ?”? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????’ ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ??????’ ????? ???? ??”? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??”? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????????? ?”? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??”? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???????? ????”? ??”? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ????”? ??? ??? ????? ???’ ?”? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ????? ???? ??”? ?????????, ????? ???”???? ??”? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ??”? ???”? ??? ???, ??”? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?’ ?”? ????? ??????? ?”? ?”? ????”? ????? ?????? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ??”?

    Interestingly, he quotes the Orchos Tzadikim that I quoted way back in the beginning, so the Plumber’s contention that I was taking the Orchos Tzadikim can now be addressed to R’ Wosner.

    #1045844

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    So to update my earlier summary:

    Shabbos 63a with Rashi

    Eruvin 48a with Rashi

    Sanhedrin 42a with Rashi

    Avodah Zara 19a with Rashi

    Avodah Zara 19a with Rashi (there are two different gemaras on 19a which I quoted)

    Medrash Mishlei 10

    Orchos Tzadikim Shaar Hatorah

    Maharal Tiferes Yisroel Perek 56

    Maharal Nesivos Olam Nesiv Hatorah Perek 5

    Maharal Chiddushei Aggados Sanhedrin

    Maharal Gur Aryeh Parshas Vaeschanan

    Maharsha Bava Metzia 85a

    Maadnei Yom Tov Hakdama

    Kli Yakar Amudei Shesh Amud Hatorah

    Chayei Adam Hakdama Acharona

    Even Shlaima 8:2

    He’aros ??

    Even Shlaima 8:7

    Shulchan Aruch Harav Hilchos Talmud Torah 2:1

    Pele Yoetz Asupa

    Pele Yoetz Girsa

    Pele Yoetz Yesod

    Ohr Yisrael Iggeres 27

    Dor Revii Hakdama

    Chofetz Chaim Likutei Amarim perek 4

    Chofetz Chaim Likutei Amarim perek 5

    Seridei Eish letter

    Shu”t Mishneh Halachos 8:247

    Shevet Halevi 2:57

    R’ Baruch Ber Leibowitz

    R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky

    R’ Elazar Menacham Man Shach

    R’ Moshe Chevroni

    R’Aharon Yehuda Leib Shteinman

    R’ Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz

    R’ Yosef Shalom Elyashiv

    #1045845

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Aharon Lichtenstein (“The Conceptual Approach to Torah Learning: The Method and Its Prospects”):

    “‘The Brisker’, Rav Eliyahu Feinstein once observed to his grandson, the Rav, ‘are very impressed with fine sevarot. But as far as I am concerned, if one has forgotten a mishnah in Ohalot, he cannot be regarded as a lamdan.'”

    #1045846

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Also from there:

    “Rav Yosef Baer Soloveitchik (of Jerusalem) once told me that Reb Hayyim, at one point, had two daily sedarim, each lasting six hours, and in eacho of which he covered eighteen blatt. When I remarked that this did not quite consort with the view I had entertained of him or his tradition, he responded, ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ‘That all came later'”

    #1045847

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “so the Plumber’s contention that I was taking the Orchos Tzadikim can now be addressed to R’ Wosner”

    Sorry, that should say “so the Plumber’s contention that I was taking the Orchos Tzadikim out of context can now be addressed to R’ Wosner”

    #1045848

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Excerpts from the Hakdama to Lev Aryeh:

    ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? (??????? ???

    ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ???????

    ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ?? ???????

    ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ??????, ????

    (??????? ?????

    #1045849

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ???? ????? ????? ?????? “?????” ????? ????? ????? ????? ????

    ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????

    ????? ??? ??????? ???. ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????. ?????? ????

    ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????. ?? ????????

    ???? “??????” ?”???? ?’ ????” ??????? ??? ????? ???????

    ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????. ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ??

    ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??

    ??????? ?? ????. ???? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??????

    ???????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??????

    ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????

    ????? ?? ???????? (?? ?? ??????????) ?????? ????? ???

    ???????? ???? ????? ????? ??. ?????? ???? ????? ??????

    ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????

    #1045850

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ??? ?????? ????

    ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??????

    ??????? ??? ??????? ????? ??????? ????? ??????? ???????

    ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????

    ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????

    ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????

    ???????? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ??

    ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ??

    ????? ???? ?? ???????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????

    ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????

    #1045851

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ??”? ??”? ?’ ??”? at the end.

    #1045852

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Daas Yochid:

    I would point out that this thread is not against Iyun per se. It is against certain forms of Iyun and extreme focus on Iyun at the expense of Bekius. That being said, the Teshuva that you quote does not specify what he means by ????? ?????. (It’s also interesting that the Rambam that he quotes doesn’t mention iyun.) Also, it is not necessarily a stirah that ????? ????? is good for people struggling with certain issues, yet the proper way to learn would not involve heavy focus(or even perhaps any focus) on this – to quote R’ Chaim Brisker in reference to learning mussar “If a person is sick we prescribe castor oil for him. However, it is certain that if a healthy person ingests castor oil he will become very sick. If that vile wretch meets you, and if you are sound in spirit and soul, if your consciousness and character are still whole and intact, then occupy yourself with the Torah, drag him to the study house. This is the most effective and tried remedy in man’s ongoing battle with his evil impulse. However, if you are spiritually sick, if a fit of madness has seized hold of you, if some psychic anomaly has put forth its diseased tendrils in your inner world, then you must use more powerful drugs, those that are designed for the very ill – the remembrance of the day of death. We in Volozhin, thank G-d, are healthy in spirit and body, are whole in our Torah; there is no need here of castor oil. If the scholars of Kelm and Kovno feel compelled to drink bitter drugs – let them drink to their hearts’ content, but let them not invite others to dine with them.” (The Rav The World of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik)

    Regardless, see my next post for a quote from R’ Moshe about learning.

    #1045853

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    IIRC, the Chazon Ish compared yeshivos to hospitals.

    #1045854

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Haskama to ?????? ??? ???? ?????:

    ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????

    ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? ??

    ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????

    ???? ??? ?????????

    ????? ???? ??????

    #1045855

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Not exactly a rant against iyun.

    #1045856

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The part where he says that you have to learn at least 200 blatt a year or the part where he says that it’s not shayyach to know the dinei torah or to produce gedolei torah from limudei iyun?

    #1045857

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The part where they say that learning the hundred blatt is aside from the limud iyun with shiur.

    #1045858

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Again, I never alleged that one shouldn’t learn any iyun.

    #1045859

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Okay, so I guess the thread is mistitled.

    #1045860

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    This thread was started in response to PulsingFlower’s statement:

    “In general I am opposed to the over-emphasis of iyun. I’ll rant about that some other time though. I don’t want to hijack this thread.”

    And this is exactly what I have been ranting about – extreme focus on iyun before acquiring a broad knowledge of Torah. So perhaps you are right and for clarity’s sake the thread should be retitled “For Pulsing Flower to Vicariously Rant About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA” (hint hint mod).

    Sorry, I had to abbreviate to get it under the character limit. -100

    #1045861

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shkoyach Mod 100. Apology accepted.

    #1045862

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Time for the Shelah’s rant. ??”? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????

    (It’s going to be in 10 parts)

    ??. ????? ???????? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?’ ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?????

    #1045863

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ??. ???? ?? ?? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??”? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????

    #1045864

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ??. ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?????

    #1045865

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ??. ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ???????? ????? ?????? ??”? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??”? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???”? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???”? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?’ ?????

    #1045866

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ??. ??? ?? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ???????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?’ ??????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????

    #1045867

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ?. ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?”? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? (???????) [???????] ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???????

    #1045868

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ??. ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???????? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?? ???

    #1045869

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ??. ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??’ ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???”? ??????? ???? ???????? ??????? ?? ??”? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ??”? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??”? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??’ ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??

    #1045870

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ??. ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??????

    #1045871

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ??. ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????”? ???? ??????”? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??’ ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???”? ???? ??????”? ????? ???

    #1045872

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ??. ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????

    #1045873

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ??. ????? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????, ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??

    #1045874

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Vavei Ha’amudim Amud Hatorah Perek 5:14 (son of the Shelah printed chelek 4 of the Shelah):

    ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????????? ??”? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??”? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?’ ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????

    #1045875

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Toldos Adam (perek 3) quotes the Yaavetz as saying:

    ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ?’ ????? ?? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ???????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ??????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ??????? ????? ???”? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ??”? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???’ ?

    #1045876

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    And he quotes the Sifsei Yeshanim as saying:

    ???? ???? ??”? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??????

    ?? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???

    ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????

    ???? ?????? ?????? ?”? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????

    ??? ???? ?? ??? and then quotes the Vavei Ha’amudim which I quoted above.

    #1045877

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Chavos Yair Siman 124:

    (The entire Teshuva is geshmak but since it is rather long, I am only quoting the end of it.)

    ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ???????? ?? ??? ??? ???”? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ???? (???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ???”? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?”? ????? ??? ?? ?’ ???? ???? ??”? ???”? ???? ????? ??? ?????”? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?”? ?”? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?”? ???? ?”? ?? ?”? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????”? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??”? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???”? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???) ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??”? ???????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ???????? ???? ?”? ????? ?????? ??”? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ??????

    ????? ???? ???? ????

    #1045878

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Pri Megadim in a letter printed in the beginning of Orach Chaim:

    ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??”? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???”? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??”? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?’ ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?’ ???? ??”? ?? ?? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ???

    ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ?????? ?????? ???? ???????”? ?????? ?? ?????? ????????? ?????? ???”? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???”? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??”? ????? ???????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??”? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??”? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ??”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??????. ???? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ??’ ??? ????? ??????? ?? ??????? ??”? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????”? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?’ ??? ???????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???????? ?? ????? ?

    #1045879

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    And in the follow up letter he reiterates:

    ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?”? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?’ ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ??”? ?? ???????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?????: ?????? ?????? ?’ ???? ??”? ??? ?’ ???? ?’ ???? [????] ?”? ?”? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ?? ??”? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ???

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