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From the main page – today’s ‘Daily Halacha’
Water Sprinkler – Shabbos
One who wishes to have his sprinkler running on Shabbos may do so by setting it to go on during Shabbos.(41) However, the sprinkler may only run in the backyard where it will not be seen by the public.(42) Others permit running a sprinkler on Shabbos even in front of ones house (if it was set before Shabbos).(43)
Footnotes
(41) Refer to Mesechtas Shabbos 18a, Shulchan Aruch 252:5, Rama, Mishnah Berurah 49, Aruch Hashulchan 8. (42) Harav Yisroel Belsky Shlita, see Be’er Moshe kuntres electric 7:71, Chelkes Yaakov 1:49, Nishmas Shabbos 221, The Shabbos Home page 243. The Tzitz Eliezer 4:31 and the Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchoso 26:8 are lenient. (43) Tzitz Eliezer 4:31, Shemiras Shabbos Kehilchoso 26:8.
Does this mean that according to this shita I can set my coffeemaker to go on on Shabbos morning? I always thought that it was not allowed according to any opinions. In what way is watering grass different than brewing coffee?
In what way is watering grass different than brewing coffee?
Coffee is delicious and helps one concentrate. Grass tea tastes terrible and is fit only for Behemos.
In what way is watering grass different than brewing coffee?
Or turning off/on lights?
The Wolf
What’s a TV?
🙂
Uncle Moshe Monitor.
Wolf, are you saying that you have heard of a heter for coffee, or are you just strengthening the question?
I’m not saying that there is a hetter, as I am not qualified to say such.
But, just as you fail to see a fundamental difference between watering grass and making coffee, I fail to see a fundamental difference between those two and turning on/off lights.
The Wolf
squeak- your question was posed some time ago where I daven- and , truthfully, as of now, I am not sure you can find an issur, but trust the “chumro brigade” they’ll find one soon.
there may be an element of ‘shvitas keilim” here but i am not sufficiently versed in this sugya now to give you a clear answer.
Grass tea tastes terrible
Off topic, but I can’t resist: Max & Mina’s has a grass-flavored ice cream. My son tried it the first time we went. It wasn’t too bad he said.
The Wolf
Wait a minute-
Doesn’t a coffeemaker take cool or cold water and boil it? Isn’t bishul much more of an issue with regular coffee grounds vs instant coffee?
enlightened…..the fact of it being ‘bishul” is neither here nor there. If you have your lights on a timer, then when they come on,the lights/lamps are also doing “mav’ir” (or whichever of the different “melochos’ you suscribe to)
Instant coffee has no question of ‘bishul’ because it is ALREADY boiled and there is no “bishul achar bishul”.
squeak- actually, sprinkling water is not IN ITSELF a melocho (just think of sprinkling water on your floor, for example) it is the fact that the water is sprinkled ON GRASS that makes it a toldo of “zorea”.Hence, the “kli’ is not making a melocho,although the result is certainly a “melocho”
When you boil the water/coffee, it is intrinsically having your “kli’ make the melocho. a better analogy would be a timer for lights- as indicated by “wolfish” and there we clearly allow it. Stay tuned for mroe of this issue.There may be some teshuvos out there on this.
You can’t benefit ON Shabbos from food that was cooked for a Jew, by a Jew on Shabbos. So you’re saying that the timer should give the coffee a halacha of being cooked by a goy?
cherrybim- you also CANNOT benefit from any melocho that a GOY does on shabbos if it is done EXCLUSIVELY for the jew and told to do so by the jew. when , sometimes, one hints to a non-jew that is ‘dark in the room” to have the lights put on- the non-jew also benefits from this as he needs the light too.
whatever the rule is for non-jews, it is not comparable to the question at hand.the coffee-maker is an inert thing and is much more comparable to the sprinkler mentioned or to the light timer. I welcome anyone out there who knows about any teshuvos on this.
The coffee maker is literally cooking the ground coffee, which could not be drunk unless it were boiled, as opposed to instant coffee, which could be even mixed with cold water (however yucky that thought) and be edible, or even mixed into another food item such as chocolate pudding and eaten. Ground coffee is still undrinkable in its present state until it is boiled with water. Plus, the coffee maker has a filter, so maybe there is a borer issue also. There is no congruence between a light timer and a coffee timer. We are permitted to have lights on Shabbos. Fresh-cooked food or drink, we are not. I also learned our keilim do not have to rest on Shabbos, or we would never be able to have a refrigerator, heat, or A/C on. So the timer is not an issue for a light.
Maybe it could be similar to the halachot of a crock pot?
Not really like a crockpot, the food is already cooked partway, and continues cooking on Shabbos. The coffee maker would be starting from scratch ON Shabbos.
You’re right oomis, the coffee grinds need to be “cooked”. Sorry for the mistake!
oomis- who says we are not permitted to have fresh-cooked food on shabbos? Per actual de’oraisa” if you cook eggs on a hot pavement- it is muttor- because it is not toldo de’esh- obviously miderabbonon it is ossur but you cannot just say that we are not aloowed frsh-cooked food on shabbos.
as per your assertion that we can have lights on shabbos- yes, but we cannot actually LIGHT on shabbos- so i do see an analogy bewteen timers for light and coffee makers.
Lastly- what happens if you put UNCOOKED food in the oven and adjust the timer? As a matter of fact, ‘cholent” is cooked mainly during shabbos, as long as it is fulyl covered, etc.
if my memory serves me right, this was Rabbi Heineman s hetter for new stoves.
i don’t know why a coffeem aker should be prohibited. please bring sources
This is a question for your rov.
The Mishna Berura 253 discusses this concept, as well as the various stages of preparedness of cooked food that are allowed and are problematic.
Additionally, a coffeee-maker that audibly grinds the beans has a separate issue (also in the M.B. 253)
Here are some opinions on the issue, cut-and-pasted from other sites:
First Site (yeshiva.org.il)
Automatic Coffee Maker on Shabbat/Yom Tov
by Rabbi Jonathan Blass
Question:
May a person set a coffee pot on a timer before Shabbat to make coffee for Shabbat morning? If this presents a problem of Bishul, then can a person set a coffee pot on a timer to make coffee for a Yom Tov morning?
And, are either of the above two questions handled differently if the coffee maker is the type that both grinds the beans and makes the coffee automatically (as opposed to the “standard” machine which uses preground beans)?
Answer:
Second Site (eretzhemdah.org)
Question: May one set an automatic coffee maker on a timer so that it brews the coffee on Shabbat morning? (Obviously, the ingredients would be put in and the settings adjusted before Shabbat, and no electrical switches need to be pressed to remove the coffee.)
A final issue is that the Rama (OC 252:5, as opposed to the Shulchan Aruch, ad loc.) forbids operating from before Shabbat a mechanism that is forbidden to operate on Shabbat if it makes noise because it is degrading for Shabbat (avsha milta). It is permitted only if people often set up the mechanism in advance and thus there is no reason to suspect Shabbat desecration occurred (ibid., regarding a clock that chimes). Since coffee makers are usually not operated on a time delay, this could be a problem. However, most machines are probably not loud enough to cause a prohibition, which exists when it can be heard in another room (see Igrot Moshe, OC IV, 70).
There are (and will be) many models of coffee makers, so one must ensure that his meets all the requirements and not assume or quote us as giving a blanket leniency.
rabbiofberlin-
“As a matter of fact, ‘cholent” is cooked mainly during shabbos, as long as it is fulyl covered, etc.“
If I remember correctly, cholent has to be cooked to a certain degree before Shabbos. (I’m relying on my memory here, and don’t remember if ki’machal ben drusoi, mostly cooked, or some other shiur. If anyone can help with specifics it would be appreciated).
I didn’t know that instant coffee was pre-cooked, and was wondering why instant coffee must be added after the hot water if it’s already cooked since “ain bishul achar bishul”.
The star-k website addresses this: Note: Some opinions consider dry foods that dissolve when added to hot liquid a davar lach, a liquid. To allow for this opinion, it is better to put such additives only into a kli sheni after the hot liquid has been added. For example, it is best to first place hot water into a cup and then add instant coffee.
“If I remember correctly, cholent has to be cooked to a certain degree before Shabbos. (I’m relying on my memory here, and don’t remember if ki’machal ben drusoi, mostly cooked, or some other shiur. If anyone can help with specifics it would be appreciated).”
Obviously I am not a rabbi, and I would remind everyone to ask their LOR. However, I have sat through countless Hilchos Shabbos shiurim, and I recall that cholent needs to be EITHER ki’machal ben drusoi, OR totally raw.
The reasoning is that if you are going to eat it Friday night, and the food needs to cook a bit more, you may come to stir it. However, if it is ki’machal ben drusoi, by the time you serve it it should be fully cooked. In the case of totally raw, there is no way it will ever be ready to eat Friday night, so again, you would not be tempted to stir it.
my thanks to “I can only try’ for the exhaustive analysis on this subject. So, by and large, it seems that you may very well be allowed to set the coffee maker for shabbos and , even if yo uwant to “machmir’ on that, on yom tov, it clearly cna be done!
also, my kudos to ‘haifagirl’ on her correct assumption of cholent. allow me to add that with raw food (or cholent) technically the “oven’ must be sealed so as to avoid the temptation of stir it or to adjust the fire. I am not sure whether our ‘blech’s’ are considered “sealed”.Again, my thanks to all the contributors.
Thank you. But the kudos should go to my teacher.
If I had to come up with Svoros, I’d say in the case of watering of grass on a timer, the timer opens and closes the valve that controls the water flow.. That might be the kula here? I don’t know exactly. Regarding the coffee maker, the timer allows the machine to run. The machine cooks water, which I believe Bishul Achar Bishul applies, the water flows through the grounds and the filter (related to Borer or similar Melacha). The pot usually sits on a “hot plate.”
Just my Svoros, not halacha, but it’s a way to analyze the situation.
;
haifagirl – “… I recall that cholent needs to be EITHER ki’machal ben drusoi, OR totally raw.”
rabbiofberlin – “with raw food (or cholent) technically the “oven’ must be sealed so as to avoid the temptation of stir it or to adjust the fire. I am not sure whether our ‘blech’s’ are considered “sealed”.”
Haifagirl and Berlin:
With regards to totally raw cholent. This is far from a simple solution nowadays. The reason is becase the food most be totally raw at the time that Shabbos commences. The question arises when Shabbos really commences – at the Shkia or at the Tsais?
Although we each may take the position of respective Rishonim when it comes to davening, etc., nevertheless, even those who take the position that nightfall begins at the Tsais (Rabbeinu Tam), such as us Chassidim, we still begin Shabbos at the Shkia. The food therefore has to be of the sort which takes more than 72 minutes to begin to cook K’Maachal Ben Drosoa, so that the food will still remain totally raw when the Tsais arrives.
I am persoanlly not aware of such a food item. Generally after an hour all foods are cooked at least nominally.
LeiderLeider”…I am persoanlly not aware of such a food item. Generally after an hour all foods are cooked at least nominally.”
A raw cold cholent on a low flame will not be anywhere near cooked in 72 minutes and longer; it will still be totally raw and inedible.
Cherry. You may be right. I should try it just to test it). I was always concerned that it may still be cooked K’maachal Ben Drosoa.
squeak- the water must be heated- never boiled- BEFORE they drip over the ground coffee.There is no way of making fresh coffee- in a machine- with cold water. Possibly in the old times , they just threw ground coffee into a pot of water and then boiled it-ech!!! there is very littel worse than bolied- burned coffee! unless it is instant coffee….
BTW- ground coffee is more like “ofui” (baked-roasted) and hence it is “bishul achar afyiah”.
I briefly looked over some of the halochos concerning “shehiah’ , “chazoroh” and “bishul”. BTW- the fear is not to stir the pot (that would be “meigis”, toldoh of bishul) but the fear is that you would shake the coals (or other combustible) under the pot (“mechate es hagecholim)to allow the food to cokk better or quicker.
I am not sure whether any of the halochos mentioned can be applied to a coffee maker. Simply, because, there is no fire at present, at the minimum it must be considered like “gerufo uketumoh” , an oven whose coals have been taken out with all its subsequent “kulos”. I don’t know how it could be “shei’eh” (allowing the food to stay on the fire) or ‘chazoroh’ (returning ther food over the fire) maybe it comes under the heading of “chazoroh’ by a non -jew and see whether this applies to an inamite object. Thanks to all the contributors.
squeak: You disect machines?
squeak- thanks for your comments. I am pretty sure you just cannot make coffee with cold water- in other words, putting the ground coffee in cold water. try it- it tastes terrible, even if heated . somehow, chemically, the ground coffee must come into contact with hot water- NOT boiled water. Any of the usual methods-drip,french(with a plunger), even turkish coffee, all of them deal with hot water. If you google coffee making, I am pretty sure it will tell you all about it.
As far as the difference of “afyiah’ and ‘zli”, I always associated ‘zli’ with frying in oil-a liquidp- whereas ‘afyah’ is without any liquid. Roasting coffee beans happen without liquid. In any case, it makes very little difference in halacha, as there is ‘bishul achar afyian’ and “bishul achar zli”. Incidentally, i daresay, yo ucna oast coffee beans in an oven and you will nto be able to ‘fry” it in oil.
squeak is a coffee snob.
He doesn’t sound snobby at all. Au contraire, he seems so kind sharing all the info he knows.
squeak, are you a snob?
haifagirl-
Thank you for the info.
Your explanation makes sense.
rabbiofberlin-
I selected two articles that provided mareh mekomos for the info used in their conclusions, seemed knowledgeable, and provided differing conclusions just to show some insight to the issues involved. I know nothing about the authors of those articles.
I think an electric heating element is considered aish, according to most.
LeiderLeider…-
cherrybim-
When barbecuing or roasting, a trick that can be used to allow uneven cuts of meat to cook evenly is to chill the thinner part in ice water before cooking it. I would think that cold water, refrigerating the ingredients beforehand, or even putting ice cubes (instead of some water) in the cholent pot can accomplish the purpose of keeping the cholent inedibly raw until after the latest zman.
squeak: There are too many. 🙂
I can only try- I used to drink instant coffee in my youth, many years ago – until I found brewed coffee. I just cannot drink instnt anymore ,unless it is shabbos or yom tov. it is truly excarable, the acidity, the aftertaste- YECH ! so, when I drink, it is in only brewed coffee ! try it once- you may never go back-after all- you dub yourself ” I can only try”.
on a more sober notion- how can the element-when not used- be considered aish?? this would mean that any stove or oven is considered as lit- clearly not the case.
to squeak- “zli’ can be both- as you indicated, roasting over an open fire or “zli kli” which is actually frying in a skillet. Interestingly, I have seen coffee beans roasted in a pan over fire- this is they way ethiopians do it (maybe all africans but I only saw ethiopians do it). the skillet is heated but dry and the beans are roasted in it. They don’t burn because the beans actually have a little bit of fat in them, like all beans. Halachacally, it makes no differecne to our discussion because coffe making is clearly bishul and “jesh bishul achar afyah” and also “achar zli”
rabbiofberlin-
Sorry, I misunderstood your post and thought you were talking about when the element was active.
This problem gave me shabbos afternoon migrains for about a year until my wife figured it out. I was learning a 5am seder with a chavrusa, who would rig a machine to grind the beans and brew the coffee as we were finishing shacharit banetz. He would mix his beans the night before. It was great coffee, and even better seder. On shabbos, we would suffice with instant. This was because we, and I in particular lived by the psak of Rav Moshe z’tl, who was on record against an “automated shabbos” and that is was b’koshi that they were matir the shabbos clock for lighting. It turned out that I am very sensitive to caffeine, and the difference between the weekday brew and shabboss were enough to trigger a withdrawal headache. Eshes chayil mi yimtza….
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