September 7, 2018 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1589030
In the above tshuva Rav Ovadyah Yosef suggests tp say it before Mincha if it is not possible to say it after chatzos.September 7, 2018 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1589027
Whether to say selichos or not is an argument by Reb Moshe O”CH 2:95 and Rav Ovadyah Yosef Yechaveh Daas 1:46 and Shareh Tshuva in the beginning SA O”CH 581 about saying selichos, the thirteen midos, before chatzos. According to kabalah it hurts by starting up with midas hadin considered קוצץ בנטיעות..September 7, 2018 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #1589028
“Yes, thank you. That’s what you, me, and several others have been repeating throughout this thread, ”
Can you please point out where youve said that? The mods may have deleted it for whatever reason, I cant find it. I too am in agreement!
In fact youve said the opposite on several occasions. Youve said that the problem is one of simcha, at times that are supposed to be serious eg “There are times when we’re supposed to have simcha, and then there are times like leil slichos.” (unless you translate simcha as frolicking?)
“We aren’t talking about BMG guys going off the derech if they can’t have slichos parties. These are people already into hippie Judaism and it should go without saying ”
two people are using your (excellent) screen name the other one was right I’ll repost in verabtim, :
“A scarier trend that isn’t getting as much attention is people not making it to Slichos altogether. I’ve now seen multiple places not be able to get a minyan together for slichos. My slate is not totally clean in this regard so I don’t want to sound too much like I’m getting up on a soap box and yelling at the masses. It’s just a scary thought that decades from now selichos could be one of those things like tikkun chatzos that people “used to be careful to say.””
The only question is is it better if in decades people says selichos is something people “used to be careful to say.””
selcihos is something that never had a guitar
(Obviously I’m not saying this applies to all, but as you note it does apply to many)September 7, 2018 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1589063👑RebYidd23Participant
Is there indeed frolicking going on?September 7, 2018 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1589059
apushatayid, “frolicking” is a pejorative characterization that Joseph put on these selichos, in order to tilt the field towards his position that they are inappropriate. Not having witnessed them myself, but knowing that there are <iem>many such selichos, and that they’ve been going on for decades, by all sorts of Jews, not just Carlebachers, I do not accept that characterization.
Of course disco-style music is inappropriate for selichos, if indeed there is any time when it is appropriate. Nor is wedding-style music appropriate to the occasion. But solemn or inspiring music, especially of the type already traditional for centuries and accepted by <i>every</i> community including Joseph’s own, does not become inappropriate simply by adding instruments. The only instrument I’ve ever heard of as being forbidden is the organ, and that’s only since Reform adopted it.
Joseph asks “Will Yom Kippur davening be next, with some “Orthodox” synagogues turning Yom Hakodesh davening into a day of daylong acapella singing, with a choir and all?”
Where do you daven that it is not already so, and hasn’t been so for centuries? In what community is communal singing on Yom Kippur <i>not</i> traditional? I don’t think I want anything to do with such moroh-shchora-dike people. A capella singing is completely appropriate on Yom Kippur, and bigger shuls have had choirs for centuries, and I’ve never heard of anyone objecting to it. And if not for the kedusha of the day there would certainly be instruments as well, in every community, and then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.September 7, 2018 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1589088
Milhouse, we may be talking about two different things. I’m speaking of selichos that has no basis in any Jewish tradition. They are novel and introduced new elements, whether musical instruments or dancing or a festive atmosphere or whatnot, that simply didn’t exist 50 or 100 years ago during selichos.
Would you find it acceptable to turn the Yom Kippur and Tisha B’Av tefilos in shul into a festive atmosphere with merry singing and dancing?
As I asked earlier, where do they get the right to innovate Jewish customs on tefilos that we’ve been doing without these innovations for the last 1000+ years? Are they smarter than all our history of Gedolim and zeidas? Which Gedolim back them?; please name names.September 8, 2018 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #1589143
There’s nothing wrong with innovation, so long as it’s in the spirit of the occasion. Musical instruments, dancing, whatever, just because it’s new doesn’t make it wrong. The question is only what kind of music, and I do not accept your assertion that the music is “frolicking”, “disco-like”, “wild”, etc. If there is indeed a shul where the atmosphere at selichos — with or without instruments — is such that you could mistake it for a wedding, let alone a nightclub, then I condemn that particular instance. That would not justify extending the condemnation to all musical selichos, the vast majority of which, I’m sure, do maintain a slichos-dige atmosphere during selichos. Before and after is a different story.
But those who are upset with the whole idea of simcha at such a time have forgotten וגילו ברעדה. There must certainly be רעדה, and without it it’s not a slichos, but one must not forget the גילו either.September 8, 2018 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1589230
To summarize, you’d be okay with similarly innovating Yom Kippur and Tisha B’Av with merry singing and dancing, correct?
And having conceded these are modern innovations, you still have neglected to answer the question of specifically which Gedolim approve of these innovations.September 9, 2018 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1589280Doing my bestParticipant
The sephardim sing by their selichos, and they are considered to have the best mesorah. so when nusach ashkenaz and sephard begin to sing, they are simply returning to the mesorah.
As an aside i know a sephardic bachur who came to his ashkenazi yeshiva’s selichos and said the sephardic version is much easier to push himself to come as it is more enjoyable.
so why don’t we all just leave each other alone?
no one is right or wrong.(at least in my opinion.)September 9, 2018 2:46 am at 2:46 am #1589292
Joseph, “merry” is your editorializing, not a fact. And yes, I absolutely endorse singing on Yom Kippur, because it’s not an innovation. Everyone does it, including your community. And some of the common Yom Kippur tunes are actually merry. Nor do I have any problem with singing on Tisha B’av, with or without music, so long as the tunes are appropriate to the day. Merry is not appropriate.September 9, 2018 3:08 am at 3:08 am #1589297
“And having conceded these are modern innovations, you still have neglected to answer the question of specifically which Gedolim approve of these innovations. ”
It’s an irrelevant question. If there’s nothing wrong with it then no endorsements are needed.September 9, 2018 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1589312Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
“no one is right or wrong.(at least in my opinion.)”
Says the guy who just claimed that minhag Sphard is abjectly superior. And, obviously someone will find Sphardi Slichos easier; they say the same ones every day. That doesn’t make them better (or worse).September 9, 2018 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1589313Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
“It’s an irrelevant question. If there’s nothing wrong with it then no endorsements are needed.”
Who says there’s nothing wrong with them? If a gadol doesn’t specifically acknowledge open orthodox shul’s ordaining of females do you think that means he approves of it?
Of course anything new needs approval. How could any frum yid claim it doesn’t.September 9, 2018 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1589344Doing my bestParticipant
“Says the guy who just claimed that minhag Sphard is abjectly superior. And, obviously someone will find Sphardi Slichos easier; they say the same ones every day. That doesn’t make them better (or worse)”
not sure what you’r point was, i just meant that their singing by selichos makes it more enjoyable.September 9, 2018 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #1589351
Milhouse, if Webster’s had video, by the listing for “merry” they could easily use the video here from the Atrium slichos in Monsey where you see the guys jumping up and down and singing. And this is one of the tamer ones. By the Yehuda Green ones it is even worse:
“Tisha B’av, with or without music, so long as the tunes are appropriate to the day. Merry is not appropriate.”
Why isn’t merry appropriate? Vi shteit az m’tur nisht?September 11, 2018 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1589409WolfishMusingsParticipant
I don’t know what the problem is.
Is there anyone here who goes to a shul where there is absolutely no singing on Yom Kippur?
And if singling is okay on Yom Kippur, why should it be not okay for slichos?
The WolfSeptember 11, 2018 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1589402
There is a logic to be happy for slichos for appreciating that Hashem because of his mercy gives us an opportunity once a year to ask for His forgiveness. Rosh Hashana is a day we designate such that the satan does not know when it is to be mekadreg and Hashem the King sits on His throne when we tell him so.September 11, 2018 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1589529
Will you jump up and down dancing and singing and/or having a kumzits on Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur and Tisha B’Av, Wolf, laskern and company?
Why is that less okay than doing the same for selichos?September 12, 2018 8:47 am at 8:47 am #1589625
“Will you jump up and down dancing and singing ”
You will be pleased to know that as people began singing on R”H I started yelling and throwing things.
It was abominable. right after unesaneh tokef they started singing some marching song they claimed it was a modzitser tune or something but they can’t fool me , you correctly pointed out singing ( certainly such a joyous upbeat tune) has no place on Rosh Hashana and is a modern innovation .
“and/or having a kumzits on Rosh Hashana”
I have been to some shuls (not my current one where all the tunes are upbeat and joyous as befits a King’s coronation) where they broke out in a kumzitz particularly during chamolSeptember 12, 2018 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1590246
Joseph, nothing in the video you linked indicates anything even slightly untraditional happening during selichos. It shows people dancing and singing Rachamono De’onei, which is a 100% traditional and a holy Jewish minhag, after selichos. I do so, my father does so, and my zeideh, elter-zeideh, and elter-elter-zeideh, etc., all did so, and if you have a problem with it then I have no interest in whatever religion such criticism comes from, because as far as I’m concerned it’s not Yiddishkeit.
If you have information that this was going on during the selichos feel free to post it, but until I see evidence I am going to assume you’re just making it up.
Neville, until you can point to something that is objectively contrary to some jewish law, teaching, or value, nobody’s approval is needed. Nobody ever asked a rov whether it was OK to install electricity in his house, or indoor plumbing.September 12, 2018 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1590309slominerParticipant
Milhouse, Neville is correct. How can you possibly compare not asking the rabbonim about installing plumbing in your home to every Chaim and Yankel deciding on their own to change how we conduct our tefilos in the Beis HaKenesses?
Seriously? You think anyone on the street can make modifications on what we do in shul without asking any Rov or Godol?!September 22, 2019 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1788603
In the alte heim and even in America until relatively recently people would cry during selichos. Nowadays the in-thing is having a hippie-style concert for selichos.
Every year nowadays there’s more competition for selichos concert shuls. Until not too long ago such a concept hadn’t existed.September 22, 2019 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1788710Git MeshigeParticipant
Joseph, quit being holier than thou. If you want to be taken seriously then do the following. Pay attention to your Rov Drosho before selichois and learn mussar. One big component of mussar is the preaching to the people against bitul zman. When you cease wasting hours on end on these forums and devote the time to torah study instead, then you have the moral high ground to criticize people who you dont agree with hashkafacally. Until then be quietSeptember 22, 2019 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1788714BenephraimParticipant
While I am too young to have heard Yossele sing Bemotzai Menucha live , neither have I heard Oshamnu Mikol om live by Roitman but I was zoche to hear Divrei Hisorerus by Rav Riskin in Lincoln Square. Lucky are those who heard this amazing man bring many back to Teshuvah. Whatever works is kodesh.September 22, 2019 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1788772apushatayidParticipant
nu, so it was frolicking. were they uplifted in any way?September 23, 2019 12:00 am at 12:00 am #1788738rabbidovidParticipant
You asked where it started and if Yom Kippur is next.
Actually, it started in the Bais Hamikdosh on Yom Kippur
during the Avodah, which where accompanied by musical
instruments. If it was ok there, it’s ok here.September 23, 2019 9:12 am at 9:12 am #1788821
rdovid: In your shul they use musical instruments on Yom Kippur? Why not; as you said, it was used in the Beis Hamikdash.
Too bad all your zeidas for thousands of years in golus never had this brainstorm of introducing musical instruments into selichos and Yom Kippur.September 23, 2019 9:13 am at 9:13 am #1788823
The next thing to become the in-thing will be to have flashing lights like they have by the goyim (and was already r”l introduced to some “simchas” by dancing) into shuls to “enhance” the musical davening.September 23, 2019 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1788839
For all those who
Selichos is so unmeaningful That we need eg Carlebach,Kumzitz
My Recommendation is abolish The
Preferable To have 10 minutes of collective
[ with obviously all devices off and out of hands reach ]
Presumably if this presently is too disruptively radical
Hold A Very Abbreviated SelichosSeptember 23, 2019 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #17889305ishParticipant
“Too bad all your zeidas for thousands of years in golus never had this brainstorm of introducing musical instruments into selichos ”
For thousands of years no one used penicillin or chemotherapySeptember 23, 2019 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #1788955MenoParticipant
For thousands of years no one used penicillin or chemotherapy
Right. They probably thought penicillin and chemotherapy were a bad idea.September 23, 2019 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1788975midwesternerParticipant
For thousands of years they didn’t have penicillin and chemotherapy. (Or maybe they did before Chizkiyahu Hamelech was gonez Sefer Harefuos.) But for thousands of years they did have musical instruments. And the poskim still said they don’t belong in shul. Maybe because they foresaw that people would be so small minded as to be able to see the videos of the frolicking that goes on at these Selichos events, and think that there is some similarity between that and shira in the Bais Hamikdash (or even a Chazzan with a background choir.)September 23, 2019 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1788981Golden nuggets of wisdomParticipant
Let’s break this down a bit, Are they committing an AVEIRA? I wouldn’t say that. Are they Jews gathering together with the goal of serving hashem? I think Soo. They have clearly been failed by the mainstream approach ( I’m not sure who is responsible for that). So they moved to plan B to get inspiration. Isn’t that beautiful? I think it is much better than ditching it altogether even though they usually have been severely burned by the more classic approach. If someone is trying to serve God to the best of their ability, it may be beneficial to focus on that and not their approach.September 23, 2019 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #17889865ishParticipant
“But for thousands of years they did have musical instruments. And the poskim still said they don’t belong in shul. ”
This very well may be true but that is not the argument Joseph was making. Joseph’s argument is that the fact that something was not previously done is a reason it should not be presently done. It is to that notion specifically which I was responding.September 23, 2019 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1788990
bad character traits also are inherently not an aveira
yet in some cases we can say that can even be worse thanSeptember 23, 2019 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1788991
this is holding a discussion having a sad vacuum
Anyone who knew the great men and women of past
any cognizant the atmosphere wouldn’t be having this altogether
Moreso those who have sensitivity to the ones who wrote the selichos that it was not meant to be done on the guitar and they would rather have just erase them allSeptember 23, 2019 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #1788993BenephraimParticipant
The same dichotomy exists with regard to Zemirot on Shabbat. Some “zingen zemirot” while others like in Baltimore “zuggen Zemirot”. The Young Israel movement held that a service with decorum was attractive to young people. Others like The New Haven Chazzan” obm. were zoche to update and modify the standard Tefilah and enliven it all the while maintaining the dignity of the service.September 23, 2019 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1789032Golden nuggets of wisdomParticipant
It’s time for truth, ye but bad traits ARE inherently objectively bad, meaning when they are used for bad… ( not getting into right now, how just about every trait can be channeled for good) To say that a musical selechos is inherently bad is a little much. If it makes you feel better, you can replace the word ” aveira” which I wrote in my comment to ” inherently bad”September 24, 2019 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1789273
And what of musical Kinos ?
that as well or you would agree that better to cancel themSeptember 25, 2019 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1789649apushatayidParticipant
Not everything is a positive for everyone. Clearly, for Joseph and his ilk, a somber mood motivates them to say selichos which in turn moves them to teshuva. For others, for whatever reason, such a setting is not.August 28, 2021 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #2003686
Nebech.August 28, 2021 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2003757
They didn’t do this in Europe and they didn’t do this in the Sephardic lands. In fact, they didn’t do this even in America until relatively recently. So where did this start and by which Gedolim’s haskama?August 28, 2021 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #2003774
Davenen and maybe selichos are song to camouflage them not to be understood by the malachim to stop the kitrug.August 28, 2021 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #2003778GadolhadorahParticipant
For several years (pre-Covid) we returned to New York for shabbos before RH and went to Selichos at the Park East shul with Chazan Yitzchak Meir Helfgot. You can call it a “concert” but nothing like it to create the mood for the yamim noraim . I would agree that some of the “new age” acoustic concerts have zero nexus with the purpose and themes of Selichos.August 28, 2021 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #2003784
“They didn’t do this in Europe ”
Didn’t do what? Waste their time pre selichos hocking ah kup online?
Probably true though don’t you worry, I’m sure there were drey kups wasting time then tooAugust 28, 2021 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #2003787AviraDeArahParticipant
Ubiq – if anyone’s hocking a kup, it’s people who come with reform-esque innovation and then get upset at people who dislike mesorah being trampled onAugust 28, 2021 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #2003786AviraDeArahParticipant
Even if someone will come and say that they have been inspired to teshuva, somehow, by selichos concerts, there are limits; ths Torah isn’t hefker, and playing instruments while we bemoan out state of distance from Hashem in sinfulness, simply shows that the people involved do not even know the translation of what they’re saying.
Inspiration is important, but temporary…ask these same people how the coming year was, or even how their yom kippur was…if they’re being honest, they’ll probably say they had their typical boring yom kippur and fell asleep during davening.
A great cause of boredom and the feeling of a need to innovate comes from simply not knowing what they’re saying when they’re forced since childhood to sit in shul and spout random Hebrew words that are difficult to read because they’re not in the everyday siddur, which they also find boring because no one ever bothered to teach them what they are actually saying.August 29, 2021 12:04 am at 12:04 am #2003792commonsaychelParticipant
@ujm, what was the reason of shelpping out a 4 year old tread? to start machloles erev rh? you and avriah need to look at yourself first and when your perfect worry about othersAugust 29, 2021 12:17 am at 12:17 am #2003800
“if anyone’s hocking a kup, it’s people who come with reform-esque innovation and then get upset at people who dislike mesorah being trampled on”
I don’t think you know what hocking ah kup means. And there’s Noone here (as far as I know) who started this,reform esque innovation nor is there anyone here who cares about mesora (nor for that matter is anyone trampling your Mesora , frolicking selichos aren’t your cup of tea? Me neither ! don’t go problem solved this isn’t some aaveira that requires your tochacha)
All there is is a trouble maker looking to stir machlokes. Nothing more nothing less .
I agree completely with your last paragraph.August 29, 2021 10:13 am at 10:13 am #2003809
“don’t go problem solved this isn’t some aaveira that requires your tochacha”
ubiq, tochacha is a chiyuv regarding any aveira. Your being able to ignore the aveira by simply not engaging in it, doesn’t absolve you from your chiyuv to give tochacha. And the obligation is upon every Jew.
“when your perfect worry about others”
CS: The obligation to correct others isn’t only applicable to perfect people. It is equally applicable and obligatory for imperfect people.
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