August 29, 2021 10:14 am at 10:14 am #2003812rationalParticipant
I am fully in favor of the traditional pre-selichot mussar shmuess, followed by a traditional selichot with the traditional nusach. No guitars, no dancing, just selichot. That’s what we had in my Dati L’umi shul, western edge of Mateh Binyamin. God’s country. We’re preparing for shmittah, by the way, but I guess that isn’t included in the religious concerns of most of the clientele here.
I am confused by the complaint of the OP: Ma Nafshach; If the new musically-oriented selichot are MO, then why bother mentioning it at all? You are preaching to the choir here (no pun intended) and that is batel b’shishim in what the MO stand for, as we all know. If you are preaching to the yeshivish, then shumu shamayim, how could this possibly be happening? Say it ain’t so…August 29, 2021 10:38 am at 10:38 am #2003890ubiquitinParticipant
“ubiq, tochacha is a chiyuv regarding any aveira. Your being able to ignore the aveira by simply not engaging in it, doesn’t absolve you from your chiyuv to give tochacha. And the obligation is upon every Jew.”
absolutely right! Thats why I’m giving you tochacha…
You, on the other hand, are not. 1) for all you know none of the transgressors are here, and 2) no aveira took place.
You need to work on yourself, take my tochacha to heart do teshuva, learn more, as you know so little about most topics you comment on (present thread included). Spend less time looking for faults in other see the good, work on your ayin Tov, work on your honesty.
It isnt too late! take this opportunity to be a better person try to “turn over a new leaf” as Rosh hashana approaches .
Best wishes for a kesiva vechasima tova
You are most welcome for my heartfelt tochacha, I know how much you appreciate itAugust 29, 2021 11:32 am at 11:32 am #2003905
> doesn’t absolve you from your chiyuv to give tochacha. And the obligation is upon every Jew.
Except people who are not capable of doing tochacha right, which probably includes most of us.August 29, 2021 11:57 am at 11:57 am #2003912
“Except people who are not capable of doing tochacha right, which probably includes most of us.”
Do you say that about other chiyuvim and Mitzvos as well? If you don’t know how to keep Shabbos, don’t keep it. If you don’t know how to learn Torah, don’t learn. If you don’t know how to bring up your children, send them to foster care.August 29, 2021 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #2003926🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“Do you say that about other chiyuvim and Mitzvos as well?”
Is that how low you are stooping these days? You know darn well that the observance of the mitzvah of tochacha INCLUDES making sure you are qualified and that the recipient is interested. How dare you try to portray him as being lax in mitzvos by calling out your incorrect behavior.August 29, 2021 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #2003929
Tochacha must be done in tactful manner, so if you don’t know how, you will do more harm than good, yotzo sechora behefseda. The holy Shlah explains the passage אל תוכיח לץ פן ישנאך when admonishing someone, don’t call him a letz, a fool to hate you, הוכיח חכם ויאהבך call him a chacham, a wise one to love you.August 29, 2021 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #2003942
Syag, aren’t you violating your own tenets by being so harsh at him?August 29, 2021 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #2004025
It says in Sefer HaChinuch perek 239 that you should give someone tochacha privately and in a nice way; but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah.August 29, 2021 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #2004047AviraDeArahParticipant
Syag, sorry but the 2nd condition you mentioned – that he be interested – is not among the halachos pf tochacha; it says to do so even if he screams at you “ad hacaah” until he hits you.
Regarding being qualified, you are correct – it’s also to be done without onaas devorim, “lo sisa alav chait” means don’t bear a sin because of him, that he is doing and that you could have stopped, snd don’t bear a sin yourself because of him i.e. the way you’re treating him.August 29, 2021 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #2004048
The Rambam Hilchas Deas (6, 8) differentiates between ben adam lechavero where he should not ashame one in public over ben adam lamokam where, if he does not listen, can admonish him in public and ashame him.August 29, 2021 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #2004050
Syag, the correct answer is that if someone doesn’t know how to give tochacha, he should learn how to give it. Just as it someone doesn’t know how to fulfill any other obligation, he should learn how to. Not discard it.August 29, 2021 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #2004066
ujm > Sefer HaChinuch perek 239
ujm, thanks a lot for the reference! This sefer – that I would probably never find by myself – helps me understand the issue. I continued reading this whole perek and found further excellent advice – that in cases where the listener is not getting it, not to do it, including a reference to Yevamot 65b – that you can fulfil either a mitzva of giving tochacha when needed, or not give one when it should not be.
I also notice that the next perek 240 talks about a prohibition of embarrassing. I wonder whether these two prokim are connected somehow.
Anyway, I hope this is a good illustration of a tochacha given the nice way!August 29, 2021 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #2004072
> Just as it someone doesn’t know how to fulfill any other obligation, he should learn how to
There is a profound differences between learning how to do schehita or how to give tochacha. Mitzvot bein adam l’Havero require understanding the other person. Same tochacha may inspire one person and leave another one depressed. For some smart kid, when the Rav explains that he runs the shul according to the people who are there, it may be a step into Rabanut, sociology or psychology; for an emesdik Avira it was a reason to reject the Rav.
So, I am all for people trying to learn it, but do not expect everyone to succeed! Even if they learn everything from their teachers, it might not help – as generations change, and what worked 20 years ago might not work now.
There is one safe method of tochacha that has less side effects – demonstrate the correct way by your own behavior.August 29, 2021 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #2004073
Avira > it says to do so even if he screams at you “ad hacaah” until he hits you.
I think it is a machlokes whether you need to wait until he actually hits you, or you need to stop when you see him ready to hit. Given the realities of the 2nd amendment in USA, I would stop earlier to make sure I can continue giving tochacha.August 29, 2021 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #2004074
ujm > If you don’t know how to bring up your children, send them to foster care.
off topic, but this is what most people do. There are some rare individuals who either teach kids themselves or sign up as teachers to be teaching their own kids, but most people prefer going to an office, or even WFH lately, while delegating mitzvos of shinantam levanecha, teaching profession, and even swimming. It is a miracle that most are still doing pru urvu themselves!August 29, 2021 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #2004076
Back to the concert, there is a story of R Salanter visiting Konengsberg, a busy modern merchant city. First several times there, he declined an invitation to speak. After that, he talked about shabbos and said – I understand that vessels cost a lot of money and it is hard not to unload them, but could you at least not write down a list of merchandize on Shabbos? Later, he suggested to unload vessels, but not to load the new merchandize, etc. Why did he missed first several weeks? Because there was a visiting Litvak in the shul and R Salanter did not want to give him any ideas about breaking Shabbos. So, a concert might be good for some, but not for others.
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