"frum" boys who smoke

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  • #1178962

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    on the other hand…while I don’t like the OP’s wording, I agree with the concept. Just as I would question a tax evader’s being “frum” or a baal loshon Hora as being “frum” or someone who is being over on any other safek issur d’oraysa as being “frum”. Would you marry a guy who drinks too much every friday night or attends kiddush club? No. so why is a smoker different in that context.

    Blech.

    #1178963

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That said, despite what I think of smokers in general, I disagree with the premise of the op.

    You’re entitled to think smoking is bad; it is. Your conclusion that therefore smokers are bad is overblown and offensive.

    #1178964

    Health
    Participant

    Abba-S -“R’ Moshe never prohibited it he just said G-d watches out for the __ ___.”

    Wrong! He always said it was Assur to start!

    #1178965

    Sparkly
    Member

    Syag Lchochma – i think the same about both an alchoholc and a smoker and once your going there a druggy.

    #1178966

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    sparkley – do you kinda make this stuff up as you go along? Just curious….

    #1178967

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    i think the same about both an alchoholc and a smoker and once your going there a druggy.

    They’re not comparable. Smoking is an unpleasant and unhealthy habit, but doesn’t affect behavior like alcohol or drug abuse do. It’s not as bad as calling a smoker OTD, but still an exaggeration.

    #1178968

    Sparkly
    Member

    syag lchochma – not at all. i truly believe that people should NOT smoke and that its pickuach nefesh. i believe that its worse to smoke than watch TV, listen to not jewish music and go out to movies.

    daas yochid – i dont know about that.

    i have taken MANY biology classes and learnt about how bad smoking is for a person. i truly do believe that people can die from it. in fact i believe my own grandfather died from cancer because of smoking. i also believe in second hand smoke which means if someone smokes and you smell it its VERY bad. i do not want second hand smoke its NOT good for me. its pikuach nefesh for me and for my children.

    #1178969

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Smoking is a type of drug abuse, but drug abuse does not make people OTD.

    #1178970

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Health, I didn’t imply that it’s easy to quit. I’m assuming my son-in-law had to work hard to quit. And obviously it doesn’t take years for everyone to quit. In his case, I think it was the impending birth of his first child that sealed the deal.

    #1178971

    Sparkly
    Member

    yehudayona – NOT everyone will even marry people who stop smoking since they think theyll start again.

    #1178972

    Health
    Participant

    YY -“Health, I didn’t imply that it’s easy to quit. I’m assuming my son-in-law had to work hard to quit. And obviously it doesn’t take years for everyone to quit”

    Obviously not.

    Again your implication is wrong!

    Those that finally do quit – it usually takes years.

    #1178973

    Sparkly
    Member

    health – thats why its better to never start since its REALLY HARD to stop.

    #1178974

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I know a rabbi who smokes.

    #1178976

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Chronic stress is killer. Please read this as can be killer.

    Some people smoke to relieve stress. It’s an addiction. If we replace unhealthy addictions with healthy habits, like yoga, then these frum boys may have healthier outlets to cope with life’s stressors.

    How many orthodox rabbis do you know who encourage their sons and daughters, and their neighbor’s children as well, to practice yoga? Join a mixed gender, religiously diverse group of people in fitness classes or sports? How about signing up their frum children for art classes at the local recreation center? Or drop their sons off at karate classes where they are the only religious Jews?

    Smoking can start as a symptom of an unmet need. Or a frum boy may be smoking because his older frum friends and even rabbi[!] smoke. It could be a cultural influence.

    If someone is orthodox in believe in orthoprax in practice, how is one OTD while smoking? Someone may smoke and not even want to smoke.

    Do we say that someone who texts while driving is OTD too? Because it’s against the law, and definitely puts not only one’s life at risk, but other’s lives as well. Surely Hashem would not approve. We must obey the law of the land. We must not put ourselves in unnecessary danger. Thus, along this logic, if you text while driving, then you are def OTD. No question. ?

    Are you really going to walk into a shul and ask the rabbi to step away from the ark because he must be an apikoros?

    Would you seriously look into his baffled eyes and politely explain that you saw him buy cigarettes motzei Shabbos?

    Is it just me or is Hashem the only judge?

    #1178977

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    You can get addicted to movies just aw easilly as smoking. And the damage caused with movies can last forever-in the next world if you don’t fix it. It’s been scietifically proven that it is an addiction just like smoking.

    #1178978

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Health, I didn’t imply anything. I gave a straightforward narrative. It is one data point. It’s you who are generalizing.

    #1178979

    takahmamash
    Participant

    just because someone smokes doesnt mean they are otd!!!!!!!!!

    Not OTD, but definitely stupid.

    #1178980

    Sam2
    Participant

    Shopping: I don’t think you know what addiction means. And no, there is no such thing as a chemical or physical addiction to television or movies. No such thing has been scientifically proven. You are misinformed.

    In general, this conversation is silly and pointless. OTD is not a Halachic or meaningful term. Let’s not invent pointless categories. The term is useful as a way to describe certain people. But when you start creating technical points about what it is and isn’t, it loses all meaning. Is smoking bad? Yes. Should girls marry smokers? Probably not, but that’s up to the girls in question.

    #1178981

    Sparkly
    Member

    lightbrite – my rabbi doesnt smoke and he wouldnt be my rabbi if he did smoke.

    shopping 613 – thats ONLY if you didnt grow up with movies. i do agree with you. but it ONLY happens with people who didnt grow up with movies and then watch them.

    #1178982

    Meno
    Participant

    This whole thread is stupid. If you don’t want to marry someone who smokes, then don’t, but that doesn’t mean they’re off the derech. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

    #1178983

    Health
    Participant

    YY -“It’s you who are generalizing.”

    Of course I’m generalizing, based on facts!

    “I gave a straightforward narrative”

    When you come to a topic about smoking, it automatically becomes an implication about it!

    It’s not a good idea to marry a smoker, even though there are exceptions!

    #1178984

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Sparkly- so if you grow up smoking from age 7 you aren’t addicted?

    There is a chemical reaction that happens when you watch movies. That ame chemical reaction happens when people do drugs, smoke, or get addicted to anything else. If you can be addited to shopping, why not movies?

    #1178985

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I personally know someone who was addicted to the radio. Addiction means being dependant on something to live your life. Not being able to survive without it.

    #1178986

    Shopping. I’m seriously addicted to wasting time reading the news and the Coffeeroom

    Can you seriously advise me how to remove this addiction

    #1178987

    Health
    Participant

    Shopping 613 -“If you can be addited to shopping, why not movies?”

    There’s a difference between a compulsion and an addiction!

    I’m not in the psychological field, s/o here that is, please correct me if I’m wrong. Shopping and let’s say movies, are compulsions.

    Smoking is an addiction! You can not compare the two!

    #1178988

    Health
    Participant

    Joe -“Once there are only smokers left to marry in their age category those 25 year old girls will have to choose between a young smoker or a 50+ year old.”

    It can’t be left to the girls. Just like there is a Kol Koray about age difference, they need one about marrying older guys, instead of Smokers!

    #1178989

    Meno
    Participant

    What about gambling? I’m pretty sure it’s accepted among medical professionals that gambling addiction is a thing.

    #1178990

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Compulsive gambling is definatly real

    #1178991

    huju
    Participant

    To Abba_S: Get some term life insurance on your son-in-law when he is young, because his chances of getting old are not as good as your daughter’s.

    #1178992

    Health
    Participant

    Meno -“What about gambling? I’m pretty sure it’s accepted among medical professionals that gambling addiction is a thing.”

    Gambling is a new addiction!

    From SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN:

    #1178993

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Smoking is also gambling. Instead of money, you are betting your health.

    #1178994

    Meno
    Participant

    Health:

    So it is an addiction?

    #1178995

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    GYE considers it an addiction, it sends out the same chemical message as you do when you are addicted to smoking. So whatever you want to call it- the same thing goes on in the brain.

    #1178997

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Neville ChaimBerlin – that is SOOO different. so now you want to tell me that your definition of modern is someone who watches TV and listens to not jewish music and goes to movies? Thats considered regular like me NOT mo like the only people who dont are the rabbis kids. i happen to have a mo rabbi as well but i dont consider going to movies, listening to not jewish music, watching TV mo its NOT going against the Torah. Breaking shomer, wearing pants, etc.. are going against the Torah.”

    What??? When did I ever say anything like that? Are you saying smoking is analogous to breaking shomer or watching TV? I really can barely understand this paragraph.

    #1178998

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The point I made wasn’t conspiracy theorizing. The fact of the matter is that smoking is a lot more prevalent in religious-right communities than it is in the MO. Members of the MO often claim that’s because their poseks assur it (it’s really probably more a matter of social class).

    If you have to listen to MO’s long enough, you’re bound to hear one eventually say “smoking is a perfect example of where we’re actually MORE strict than those crazy black-hatters,” or some such thing. It gets old. Yes, I was accusing this thread of being one of such cases and I stand by that.

    #1178999

    Health
    Participant

    Meno -“Health: So it is an addiction?”

    What didn’t you understand when I posted this?

    “Gambling is a new addiction!”

    #1179000

    Abba_S
    Participant

    AS far as I know there is no prohibition of smoking except fot R’ Moshe who said G-d watches out for the FOOL. If you know any acceptable Rabbi I am all ears, just don’t cite magazines or the surgeon general.

    There is a general rule whoever finds faults in other has these same faults.

    #1179001

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Can someone cite the teshuva where R’ Moshe says it is ASSUR to smoke?

    #1179002

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    There are many fine frum rabbonim who smoke.

    If we’re going to argue that it’s assur to engage in any behavior that can be bad for health, than why not say cholent, nosh, ice cream, kugel and cake are assur? Obesity, high cholesterol, high blood pressure are serious health problems, too.

    Second hand smoke is as real as man-made global warming. In other words, it’s a farce that’s been debunked.

    #1179003

    Health
    Participant

    apushatayid -“Can someone cite the teshuva where R’ Moshe says it is ASSUR to smoke?”

    From 4 years ago:

    “The little I know

    is still a lot more than you know.

    To all the disbelieving nicotine addicts:

    Here is a list of poskim who proclaimed smoking as an absolute issur:

    Rav A. L. Shteinman

    Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapiro

    Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz

    Rav Shmuel Wosner

    Rav Nisim Karelitz

    Rav Y.G. Edelstein

    Rav B.D. Povarsky

    Rav Matisyahu Salomon

    Rav Shimon Bedni

    Rav Yitzchok Zilberstein

    Chofetz Chaim

    Chazon Ish

    Rav Shach

    Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach

    Rav Moshe Sterbuch

    Rav Avigdor Miller

    Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky

    Rav Moshe Feinstein

    Rav Benzion Abba Shaul

    This a partial list. Each and every name here can be verified with specific reference. I only want to know the names behind the heter that is assumed. Permitting smoking is like chometz on Pesach or other maacholos asuros. The issur is severe, not just a chumro.

    I have heard some proclaim that Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L was matir smoking. That is a complete fabrication. If questioned, I will provide proof otherwise.”

    I ALSO POSTED 4 YEARS AGO:

    “Health

    !

    The little I know -“I have heard some proclaim that Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L was matir smoking. That is a complete fabrication. If questioned, I will provide proof otherwise.”

    I’m totally against smoking. As a medical prof. -I’ve seen the devastating results of smoking.

    I haven’t seen the Teshuva in awhile but the way I remember it is like this -It’s Ossur to start because of Gaiva, but you can continue, once addicted, because of Hakol Doshin Bo -so there is no problem of V’neshmartem.

    Am I correct? This is what all the smokers rely on.

    Even if he held Mutter, I hold nowadays he would say Ossur because at that time noone knew about second-hand smoke. How could it be Mutter because it’s next to impossible to smoke without someone – somewhere breathing it in? Even if there is a Heter to hurt yourself, how could there be a Heter to Mazik s/o else?!?!?”

    #1179004

    SMFG3
    Participant

    rav moshe zt”l said on smoking – “SHOMER PESAYIM HASHEM” – HASHEM WATCHES OVER FOOLS. TWO POINTS TO NOTE HERE: 1) REASON HE SAID SO , BECAUSE HE FELT THAT IT WAS A “DOVOR SHEDOSHU BEI RABIM” IE. SOMETHING THAT MOST HAVE DONE AND WILL BE UNABLE TO DEPART FROM! EVEN MORE -IMPORTANT–2)WHEN RAV MOISHE SAID “SHOIMER PESAYIM HASHEM”, IT WAS NOT KNOWN YET ABOUT EFFECT OF ‘SECOND HAND SMOKE” . YOU AN BE A PESI (A FOOL) ON YOUR OWN CHESHBON—- BUT RAV MOSHE WOULD’VE OUTRIGHT ASSER SMOKING IF HE “SECOND HAND” SMOKE HAD BEEN AN ISSUE AT THE TIME OF THE PSAK!!! I DISCUSSED THIS WITH MANY GEDOLIM AND ALL AGREED WITH THIS OBSERVATION!!!!!!! HOPE THIS CLARIFIES RAV MOSHE’S POSITION ON SMOKING……..

    #1179005

    Sparkly
    Member

    Neville ChaimBerlin – please stop attacking people who are mo. this has nothing to do with mo. this has something to do with the fact that smoking is clear cut bad for a person and pikuach nefesh.

    #1179006

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Health. An impressive list of poskim. It didn’t answer the question. Where is the teshuva from Rav Moshe z’l that it is assur to smoke. I’m Not talking about what he might have said. I’m talking about what he did say. I’m Not taking a position yes or no. I’m taking the position that if someone (anyone not you in particular) says a posek said this is assur (or mutter) they must cite the source.

    #1179007

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    “SHOMER PESAYIM HASHEM”

    No reason to shout. Your point isn’t any more true or false because you type it in ALL CAPS. All it does it makes me not want to read your post.

    The Wolf

    #1179008

    Sparkly
    Member

    WolfishMusings – sometimes stuff are big and all capital letters just to make sure you know whats important not trying to shout.

    #1179009

    Health
    Participant

    APY -“It didn’t answer the question. Where is the teshuva from Rav Moshe z’l that it is assur to smoke.”

    I posted this 4 years ago:

    “I haven’t seen the Teshuva in awhile but the way I remember it is like this -It’s Ossur to start because of Gaiva, but you can continue, once addicted, because of Hakol Doshin Bo -so there is no problem of V’neshmartem.”

    I haven’t looked for it since. And I should look for it now because – of all the money you will give me?!?

    #1179010

    Health
    Participant

    APY -“It didn’t answer the question. Where is the teshuva from Rav Moshe z’l that it is assur to smoke.”

    I did you a favor. I went to that topic from 4 years ago.

    And here is the quote from Tzvei Dinim:

    “Anyways the following is the real opinion of other poskim in their own words:

    ???? ???? ??”?:

    “???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ??? ????? ??, ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ?????. ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???. ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??, ??? ???”? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??”? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ????????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???”? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?”? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????” (?????? ????? ??’ ?”?).

    ??”? ????? ????? ??”?:

    ????? ??? ??”? ????? ??? ????”? ??? ????? ??? ???????? “????????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ??”? ???”? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????????”.

    ??”? ???? ?????? ??”?:

    “??????? ????? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ??????? ???? ??? ???, ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????” (????? ?????? ??’ ?????? ????? ??’ ??”?. ??? ???? ???? ????? (???”?) ??’ ??”?, ??? ???? ???? ???? “?? ?? ?????? ??? ???”? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????”, ???? “???? ??? ???”? ?????? ????? ????’ ??? ??? ????? ????????”).

    ??”? ??? ???:

    “?????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? … ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ?? ???????? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????” (?”? ??’ ?”? ??? ?’).

    ??”? ??? ??????:

    “?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??????, ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???” (??”? ??’ ?”?, ??”? ?? ??”? ??’ ?”? ???????).

    ??”? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??”?:

    “???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??????, ??? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ????” (??? ????? – ???? ????? ??’ ??”?).

    ??? ??????? ?? ????? ??????

    ??”? ???? ???? ???????? ??”?:

    “… ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ???????” (?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??????, ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ??’ ??”?).

    “??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???????? ?????, ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ?????, ??????? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ???? ???? ????, ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????, ???? ?? ?????, ?????? ?????” (???? ??? ??? ????? ?”? ??’ ?”? ??’ ?? ??’ ???? ?????? ?”? ??’ ??”?-??”?).

    ??”? ???? ???? ?????? ????”?:

    “??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????, ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ?????? ???” (??? ???? ???? ??”?, ??”? ???? ?????? ?”? ??’ ???).

    “????? (?? ????”? ?????? ????”?) ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????’ ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????, ????? ?????” (??”? ????? ??? [???”?] ??’ ??”?- ???? ????”? ?????? ????”? ???? ???? ?”? ??? ????? ?????? ??”? ?????? ???????. ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? “???? ????? ??????? ????????? ?????? ???? ???” ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???”?).

    ??”? ??? ??????? ????”?:

    “????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???… ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???”?, ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???” (?????? ??????? ?”? ??’ ??”? ??”? ?”? ??’ ??”? ???????).

    ??”? ?????? ???? ????”?:

    “… ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ???????, ????? ????? ????? ???” (?????? ???? ?”? ??’ ??”?).

    ??”? ????? ????? ????”?:

    “?? ??????? ?? ??”? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ????” (???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?”? ?????).

    ??”? ????? ????? ????”?:

    “?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????” (?”? ??’ ???”?).

    ??”? ??? ???? ????”?:

    “????”? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????????” (???? ???- ???? ?? ???, ????? ?”?).

    ???”? ??????? ????”?:

    “????: ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ???”??

    ?????: ?? ???? ????.

    ????: ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???????? ???”? ??? ??? ???? ???”? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???????

    ?????: ???” (???? ?? ??’ ?”?).

    While Rav Moshe writes in Igros Moshe ??”? ?”? ??’ ?”? that being that the chance of getting sick from smoking is only a ??? ???? it’s muttar to smoke if your addicted. Today, after it has been proven that smoking kills most smokers, Rav Reuven Feinstein and others have said hold that Rav Moshe’s psak is clearly not applicable.”

    #1179011

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    WolfishMusings – sometimes stuff are big and all capital letters just to make sure you know whats important not trying to shout.

    They may not be trying to shout, but they are anyway.

    In addition, they may think that they’re attracting people to read the post, but the reality is probably the opposite. People tend to skip things that are in all caps like that. I know I skipped it (as I generally do when people shout like that).

    And, as I pointed out, it isn’t any more true (or false) just because it’s in all caps. If the point is valid, then it’s just as valid typed in normal case.

    The Wolf

    #1179012

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    SMFG3: What R’ Moshe would have done is pure speculation even among gedolim.

    Health: please provide the sources for those you listed who “ASSURED” smoking. I prefer to look them up with my Rav.

    #1179014

    Sparkly
    Member

    iacisrmma – do you smoke? in the last post you made yourself sound like you smoke!

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