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Shopping613- From the posts I was reading, it sounded as though people were painting smoking in very black and white terms and implying that if someone picks up a cigarette, it is like taking poison and completely assur.
It could be you are right, but in that case people should be clearer about what they mean.
I do think that most bochurim who smoke do so as a short-term thing with the intention of quitting when they get married (or start dating), and most of them are in fact able to quit.
Again, I’m not saying that anyone should smoke l’chatchila; I’m just saying that it should be put in perspective and not made out to be the absolute biggest aveirah and the people who do so to be absolute reshayim.
“i dont want a guy who ever smoked.”
Once off the derech, always off the derech?
LU -“Driving and crossing streets are two of the most dangerous things to do, but no one says it’s assur.”
They actually talk about why it’s Mutter to cross the street.
“But- the fact that it is dangerous does not NECESSARILY render it a clear-cut Issur D’oraissa.”
You’re arguing with most Poskim that say if you’re addicted to smoking it’s an Issur D’oraissa!
“but all the bochurim that I know who smoked only did so for a short period of time”
What do you consider is “a short period of time”?
“But- the fact that it is dangerous does not NECESSARILY render it a clear-cut Issur D’oraissa.”
You’re arguing with most Poskim that say if you’re addicted to smoking it’s an Issur D’oraissa!
You really need to work on your logic skills. My sentence and your sentence have absolutely no connection. I wrote nothing whatsoever about whether or not someone who is addicted to smoking is committing an Issur D’Oraissa.
1. I didn’t say anything about someone who is ADDICTED to smoking.
2. I was not discussing whether or not is an Issur D’Oraisah. All I said was that the we can’t assume it’s an Issur D’Oraissah just because it’s dangerous. If it is an Issur D’Oraissah, this is so because the poskim poskened that it is (if they in fact did so) and not because I decided that anything that is dangerous is an issur d’oraissah.
Sparkly – I wasn’t discussing whether or not it’s assur to smoke. I was responding to someone who said that we don’t have to know what the Gedolim say in order to know if it’s assur to smoke. That is not true – if it’s assur to smoke, it is because the Gedolim say so.
In any case, I think that your statement that it is flat-out assur to smoke may be incorrect. I know Rabbanim who say that it is muttar to smoke although it is possible that they would say that it is assur to smoke to the extent that one gets addicted. One should be careful about making such definitive statements unless one has proof to back one up.
LU -“I know Rabbanim who say that it is muttar to smoke although it is possible that they would say that it is assur to smoke to the extent that one gets addicted.”
It sounds like a manipulation. No one asks a Shaila if they can smoke a Chosson cig. They ask – is it Mutter to smoke – ie. smoking because I’m addicted!
Person1: “LU with the last paragraph excluded – you convinced me.”
Thanks! 🙂 Glad to hear that I can be convincing.
Sparkly, I was referring to two things. 1. My friend’s husband who is a Rosh Kollel and a Talmid Chacham told me that he smokes once a week because smoking once a week is not addictive and is mutter. He is not a poseik, but he is a Talmid Chacham and the way he said it, it sounded like it was something that he had looked into it and knew for certain that it was okay.
I am not saying that anyone should necessarily rely on this; my point was that we should be dan l’kaf zchus people who smoke and not assume that anyone who picks up a cigarette is a rasha.
2. A yeshiva bochur I know was told by his Rosh Yeshiva that it’s healthy for bochurim to smoke. I assume what he meant by that was that teenage boys need an outlet, and better they should smoke than do other things.
L’maaseh, for this boy, smoking was something he did for a particular tekufah, I think even during that tekufah, it was something he didn’t do on a regular basis – maybe just bein hazmanim, he never got addicted, and from the beginning his intention was to stop, certainly before he was shidduch-age. L’maaseh, he has already stopped by now even though he’s not in shidduchim yet. His mother even told me once that he expressed shock when he heard about someone who continued smoking after he was married; for him it was always clear that this was something he was doing as a “teenage outlet” (kind of his way of being able to be a little bit “rebellious” since he is a really good boy and this is the worst thing he would ever think of doing).
I’m not expressing my personal opinion on this. I don’t think there is any reason for me to have an opinion on this, and it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to have an opinion on it. My point was really that we should be “dan l’kaf zchus” particularly in Elul. This is something that each person in the situation has to make his own cheshbonos and figure out what the right thing for him to do is. He has to weigh the different factors in his life and figure out if for him right now it would better to smoke or not (for example, what would he he be doing instead if he didn’t smoke? It’s not like a clear-cut halacha such as negiah which is absolutely assur.
Sparkly – that doesn’t prove that it is. And it certainly doesn’t prove that there aren’t other opinions.
It certainly can’t be compared to not being shomer negiah. And it is certainly wrong to call a boy who smokes OTD or not frum which is what you wrote in your opening post.
LU, how an a rosh yeshiva claim smoking is healthy?
LC, that’s not what she says he said.
DY, that is what LU said the bochure said. LU doesn’t dispute the statement; LU is trying to justify the statement by qualifying it with pure speculation as to the rosh yeshiva’s motives.
Besides all the other issues, cigarettes in New York cost $14 a pack! How is spending that kind of money on cigarettes justified, especially if you’re in kollel?
Just had an awesome cigar with my morning coffee while sitting on my porch.
You are also speculating that he meant it’s physically healthy. I think her speculation is much more likely than yours.
You also seem to be speculating that this took place in New York, and that the bochurim he’s referring to are in kollel.
FYI, the vast majority of American bochurim who smoke stop before they go into shidduchim.
Thanks DY for answering for me so concisely and to the point!
The kid was around 18-20 at the time. He stopped even before going to EY. It’s a lot cheaper than all the money other teenagers waste on movies, clothes, etc. (wonder how it compares to the money I spend on chocolate…)
LC – it wasn’t pure speculation. I asked the boy and his father (who was present) what the Rosh Yeshiva meant.
And why are we looking to find fault in others?
DY, and in NJ it’s $8.20 and I’m amazed people don’t wonder where teens get the money from to spend on an unhealthy, dirty and addictive habit. In addition, it’s more posts probable to assume healthy means physical, not mental, when saying that smoking is healthy.
Sparkly, because it doesn’t say anywhere in the Torah that it’s assur to smoke.
The Goq – so does this mean that you are officially OTD now?
“lilmod ulelamaid – why cant it be? its just as bad.”
We don’t decide how bad something is based on our feelings. No Gadol says it’s just as bad as not being shomer negiah. Being shomer negiah may be “yeihareig v’al yaavor”. Any Gadol will tell you that if you have to choose between smoking and not being shomer negiah, it is a million times better to smoke.
It is possible that some of these bochurim are smoking rather than being “over” on serious aveiros that one is chayiv misa or kares for.
it doesn’t say anywhere in the Torah that it’s assur to smoke
That is far from certain.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hishomer-lcha-ushmor-nafshecha
I’m amazed people don’t wonder where teens get the money from to spend on an unhealthy.dirty and addictive habit.
How do you know if people wonder? Perhaps they also wonder how teens get money for entertainment, electronics, clothing, etc.
In addition, it’s more posts probable to assume healthy means physical, not mental, when staying the smoking is healthy.
That would be true if you’re a very literal person, or if you’re looking to find fault. If someone were not either of those, the actual meaning of that statement would be obvious.
DY: I meant it’s not a clear-cut issur in the Torah like being shomer negiah is. NO Gadol puts it in anywhere near the same category.
DY: “That would be true if you’re a very literal person, or if you’re looking to find fault. If someone were not either of those, the actual meaning of that statement would be obvious.”
Precisely. And I did clarify with the boy at the time regarding what he meant. But I also thought it was obvious and didn’t need an explanation.
In all fairness I don’t think anyone can use the word smoking and healthy in the same sentence and assume people will not be speaking of physical health.
And with a bit of irony to jump at his response (and mine too, shortly) using these words:
“That would be true if you’re a very literal person, or if you’re looking to find fault.”
this statement goes towards posters as well, regardless of the “assumed” meaning based on previous posts.
LU:
Your statement is totally false. I am impressed with the logic pattern here. First, one declares a position, then one looks to find a way to justify it. That is backwards thinking.
I have posted on other threads here on this, and won’t repeat myself. There is an extremely long list of universally recognized poskim from the present and previous generations that openly wrote that smoking is an issur d”Oraysa. There are a few seforim dedicated to the subject, and present all the information, with detail and precise references.
No, Gedolim do not need to tell us that chazzer is forbidden. The Torah does that. If we have a question, related here to the health risks, that shailoh is decided by the scientific experts. The purpose of Gedolim weighing in on it is because there are many who wish a different psak, and will challenge the scientific findings. We all know that to be either primitive or plainly stupid, but that is the logic I referred to at the beginning, where the arrow is shot, then the target painted around it. Enough Gedolim have issued their clear, definitive psak, so no one should be left with a question.
Telling us that a talmid chochom smokes does not impress me at all. It does not pasken a shailoh. It just attests to an addiction which that individual cannot overcome. I cannot declare him to be a baal aveiroh, just a choleh. Like I would not mimic going for surgery or medical care because a talmid chochom did, because I don’t need it, I will not accept that his smoking does anything to change halacha.
Lastly, a research finding indicated that smokers had a lower incidence of Alzheimers Disease. Preparing to fund massive research, the discovery was made that smokers tended to die of other illnesses long before there was a chance for AD to set in. To consider smoking muttar is simply foolish, and clearly against halacha.
I am 100% opposed to smoking , Ive never smoked, refuse to go near people who smoke and think its a disgusting habit, but this does touch into a bigger issue, you cant really ban everything. it just doesnt work. The more things you assur, the more likely you will have people committing averiahs
There was a story on YWN recently about a woman who tried to force her husband to swear on the torah that he would stop gambling. It was not a good idea
I don’t think anyone can use the word smoking and healthy in the same sentence and assume people will not be speaking of physical health.
Why, because smoking is (physically) unhealthy? That’s precisely why one wouldn’t assume that someone is saying it is (physically) healthy, because everyone (even roshei yeshiva!) knows that it isn’t.
I am 100% opposed to smoking , Ive never smoked, refuse to go near people who smoke and think its a disgusting habit, but this does touch into a bigger issue, you cant really ban everything. it just doesnt work. The more things you assur, the more likely you will have people committing averiahs
I agree. I think that’s why in some yeshivas, smoking is allowed (or at least the hanhalah looks the other way), because people have to choose their battles.
Sparkly, no it isn’t.
CY: I realized afterwards that this sentence was probably unnecessary and shouldn’t have been included: “But I also thought it was obvious and didn’t need an explanation.” My apologies.
also when i think of someone smoking i think of a guy whos either NOT frum, NOT jewish, or otd going outside and smoking. i CANT imagine a good frum boy smoking that DOESNT happen it DOESNT work.
You should change how you think because it’s not a reflection of reality.
The reality is there are many people who are frum, yarei shomayim, who have a flaw that they smoke.
The little I know, you are missing the point about what this thread is about, and hence, what my comments are in response to. If you want to know, go back and read the OP. As you yourself write, “. I cannot declare him to be a baal aveiroh, just a choleh.”
You also didn’t read what I wrote carefully. I never wrote that it is okay to smoke just because a Talmid Chacham does. I also mentioned nothing about addictions.
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