What Kind Of Headline Is “Chareidi Murderer”

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  • #1607933

    Loshenhora
    Participant
    #1607989

    1
    Participant

    It seems that Jews are more concerned with this than the increasing depravity among the secular Israelies, which creep into the Mizrachi spectrum.

    #1608001

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    YWN is not such a hardline frum organization. Their bias is centrist-Orthodox at best. This headline really doesn’t surprise me at all.

    #1608005

    philosopher
    Participant

    Both are troubling but Mizrachi and secular spiritual decline is definitely worse, like a spreading cancer.

    #1608017

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    There is a well known respected Rav who called this man a pinchas. So could be he is chareidi…

    #1608034

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    If this charedi man won a billion dollar lottery , would you have an issue with the headline?
    Charedi man wins billion dollar lottery?
    What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    #1608038

    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Takes2, is winning the lottery an un-Chareidi thing to do?

    #1608032

    philosopher
    Participant

    I mean a Chareidi murderer is troubling, not the headline.

    #1608053

    Joseph
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha: Which Rav?

    OP: It sells papers. (Or, in this case, clicks.)

    #1608062

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Agreed. More accurate to characterize him as a “Sick Animal Dressed in Charedi Lvush”.

    To No. 1…..yes we are more concerned about a murderer than debating alternative lifestyles in EY. If it was your daughter who happened to be the victim, I doubt if you would be giving musar to the tzibur about Toevah lifestyles.

    #1608101

    Loshenhora
    Participant

    It seems this topic has slipped through the YWN,
    net as it has been ignored numerous times
    by the adjudicator
    Surly chareidi murderer is a contradiction
    in terms
    It is incongrant
    Once one murders he can only be an
    exchareidi, or a so called chareidi
    Unless chareidi has another meaning to
    my.understanding, pray tell what it means

    #1608102

    1
    Participant

    I hope to not have a daughter not attend a toeiva parade

    #1608118

    Loshenhora
    Participant

    What is a chareidi
    Can’t mean orthodox as surly one cant be classed
    As an orthodox murderer

    #1608110

    Loshenhora
    Participant

    @the adjudicator
    Seems you ignored similar topic did this slip
    through ?
    This headline is a contradiction in terms
    Exchareidi, or so called chareidi would sit better
    Unless chareidi means how one dresses

    #1608222

    Loshenhora
    Participant

    One can not call themselves chareidi if they
    Are mechalel shabbos
    The same torah that tells us about shabbos tells
    Us about murder
    How then can YWN refer to a chareidi murderer?
    Unless YWN has gone rogue !!!

    #1608286

    Avi K
    Participant

    Unfortunately, “Chareidi” has become an quasi-ethnic group complete with identification politics (see the complaints about Judge Freier) as has “Chiloni”. Rav Kook decried this in Massa haMachanot and wrote that it prevents teshuva as the former think that they are without sin and the latter think that a religious concept does not apply to them. IMHO, this may have been Acher’s mistake.

    #1608256

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Unless it was justified by the admiring of perversion in our times. Was pinchas a murderer? Yes but he was chareidi. I didn’t come up with this one. The Rav was Rav Dovid Schochet of Toronto – not a regular person at all. Aside from being a Rav, he interprets dreams and the Rebbe told him to give brachos on simchas Torah. He’s predicted how the year will go then, truthfully, for people I know, in his Brocha. In other circles he would probably be a Rebbe himself. In any case since he said it I can respect that it may be the truth.

    #1608275

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Although with my username CS I should clarify that this is highly unusual and is not the typical Chabad approach at all (to condone extremism in the name of kanaus). That’s why it stuck with me until today.

    #1608332

    Joseph
    Participant

    CS, your point is to compare Pinchas to Yishai?

    #1608676

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Yeah the Rav said it was an act of pinchas in shul the week after it happened

    #1609332

    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s a brave position to say, CS, since the liberals (including the ones who self-identify as Orthodox) are sure to attack anyone expressing it. Bravo.

    #1609339

    Loshenhora
    Participant

    If YWN had the intention that this person
    was a Pinchos then the headline would have
    Read
    Kanoy murderer and not chareidi..
    Anyway is there such a thing as frum or chareidi
    Besides a handful of gedolim and lamed vov niks

    #1609342

    Avi K
    Participant

    CS, I looked him up and he seems to be a reputable rav so I cannot believe that he said what you claim. In fact, Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg said that if he had a nickel for every time he was misquoted he would be a rich man. When someone complained to Rav Moshe about the Chatam Sofer being misquoted he said “People misquote me and I’m still alive”. Even in the Gemara there are arguments between chachamim over what tehre rav said with each swearing that he was correct. In any case, Schlisel is clearly an extremely disturbed person. I would classify him as Chareidi except in the colloquial sense. The same goes for “Chareidi” fraudsters.

    #1609343

    ๐Ÿ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Would it be brave to say it if you disagreed with it, Joseph?

    #1609408

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Avik I will freely admit that I didn’t hear it myself but heard it from someone who was there. If I remember correctly(and there was no broken telephone) what was stated was that this was an act of pinchas, not that the man himself was like pinchas. There’s a distinction.

    #1609415

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    So, if ,as some commenters are maintaining, he is not chareidi by committing murder, then he doesn’t belong in the Torah wing of the prison, nor should he be allowed to have a beard or nonstandard prison garb.
    You can’t have it both ways.

    #1609501

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    When hashem wrote on the luchos(tablets) ืœื ืชืจืฆื—. (Thou shall not murder), was it writin only for a certain jewish denomination? Excluding charedim?

    #1609497

    Joseph
    Participant

    CS: How would you explain the difference between saying that Yishai Schlisel did an act of Pinchas versus saying that Yishai Schlisel is like Pinchas?

    #1609498

    Avi K
    Participant

    CS, what is an “act of Pinchas”? A woman entering a shul during a chachnasat sefer Torah is not listed as one of the jobs of a kanai. Does that mean that if the guard had shoved him back she would have been justified? It may have been a maaseh Rav Ada bar Ahava (Berachot 20a) but then he might have to pay her a large sum of money as compensation (ibid).

    AJ, personally I think that in general the rules of the “Torah wing” are criminal coddling. I even heard from a relative of his that a certain “rav” is very happy there as he has a chevruta with another “rav” and so far they have learned 200 pages of Gemara.

    #1609379

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Joseph, I appreciate the compliment but I have not been attacked. I think the reason is that people find it unacceptable when they sense someone is out to look for the bad in other communities or enjoy violence and are eager to use Torah to condone extremism, cause conflict or strife, violence or judgment when in truth the ways of Torah are peaceful. In truth we are meant to overlook individual faults of others and focus on where we need to grow so that Hashem will look at klal Yisrael in the same light.

    However sometimes urgent situations arise which may necessitate extreme actions, even cause conflict by taking a stand against what is popular and what the community pretends is fine when it isn’t.

    Since there are such legitimate situations which are not ideal, people get all the more upset when people who just enjoy violence and conflict try to guise their own character flaw by finding a source in Torah to condone it.

    Generally the Rebbe’s approach was not to condone extremism, conflict or violence (pinchas was a rare instance that happened once, not an everyday desert
    occurrence), and the Rebbe constantly looked and empowered the good in every Jew and person although there were situations where the Rebbe had to take a strong stand against popular notions.

    I and the others were quite surprised when we heard of the Ravs words, because he is not an extremist who enjoys violence / machlokes at all and is a very special holy person. Precisely because it was so out of character it opened us to seeing that this may be the truth in this situation, an exception to the usual rule.

    #1609565

    Avi K
    Participant

    CS, if it was out of character maybe he did not exactly say that. Rabbanim very often make nuanced statements that different people hear according to what they want to hear. Once some people took a dispute to Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook. As soon as they left they argued over what he said.

    #1609590

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Avik he was not referring to thus instance rather by the stabbing at the immoral parade in the heart of the holy city. Sorry I thought that was obvious. Glad I clarified.

    #1609593

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Joseph and avik: to be of the caliber of pinchas one would have to be a normal (healthy emotionally) person who usually abhors violence and in this one case his tremendous yiras shomayim would not allow him to countenance an outrageous chillul Hashem, so he went against his normally peaceful nature to defend Hashem’s honour. I don’t think anyone would classify shlissel as such as he had been in jail just before, aside from questions on his mental health.

    However an act of pinchas denotes an act that would normally be abhorrent but in this specific case is justified to the the extreme circumstances : in this case having an unashamedly proud immoral parade in the heart of the holy city.

    #1609594

    ChadGadya
    Participant

    Schlissel certainly believed he was following in the footsteps of Pinchas and doing a good deed. He was not wantonly killing to willfully indulge his yetzer hara to murder someone. He may have been misguided and wrong, and if so it is certainly his fault that he did not better educate himself, but how does this mistake make him not Chareidi?

    It sounds like it is obvious to most of the posters here that there is no comparison between Schlissel and Pinchas, yet do any of you have a source which explicitly says that the halacha of “kana’im pog’im bo” does not apply nowadays? If not, what kind of acts would you agree do warrant someone killing the perpetrator of? If a prominent Jewish leader were to publicly and willfully have relations with a non-jew (exactly what Zimri did), and someone who is genuinely motivated leshem shamayim would kill them, would that be wrong? If so, how is that different to what Pinchas did?

    #1609595

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Avik: it is possible especially as I was not there personally although the people came home saying the above. I don’t generally defend murderers or their ilk so I have no problem being proven wrong :). In any case I just thought it was an interesting note and perspective to introduce to the discussion

    #1609615

    1
    Participant

    He might have been wrong, but the abominable acts being committed by secular Israelis, which is slowly creeping into the “religious Zionist” spectrum, should make every religious Jew mad. Things don’t end pretty when people sin in the land if Israel. Review the last 2 parshas.

    #1609638

    Joseph
    Participant

    ChadGadya. The Halacha of kanaโ€™im pogโ€™im bo is certainly alive and in effect today and it is a mitzvah to carry out today, including in the hypothetical example you gave.

    #1609645

    Avi K
    Participant

    ChadGadya, see http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53344&pgnum=236

    According to Rav Charlap (Mei Marom Bamidbar vol. 11 p. 167)

    ืขืฆื ื”ื“ื™ืŸ ืฉื”ื‘ื•ืขืœ ืืจืžื™ืช ื—ื™ื™ื‘ ืžื™ืชื” ืื™ื ื• ืืœื ื‘ื–ืžืŸ ืฉื™ืฉ ืงื ืื™ื. ืฉืืœื” ืžืชื•ืš ื”ืจื’ืฉืชื ื‘ืงื“ื•ืฉืช ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื•ืจื•ืžืžื•ืชื, ื‘ืื™ื ืœื’ืœื•ืช ืืช ื”ืงื“ื•ืฉื” ื”ื–ืืช, ื•ืžืชื•ืš ื–ื” ืžืชื—ื™ื™ื‘ ื”ืœื” ืžื™ืชื”. ืื‘ืœ ื›ืืฉืจ ืื™ืŸ ืงื ืื™ื, ื•ืื™ืŸ ื›ืืœื• ื”ืžืชืขื•ืจืจื™ื ืขืœ ืขื•ืžืง ืงื“ื•ืฉืชื ืฉืœ ื™ืฉืจืืœ, ื‘ืืžืช ืื™ืŸ ื”ืœื” ื—ื™ื™ื‘ ืžื™ืชื”. ื—ื™ื•ื‘ ื”ืžื™ืชื” ืžื›ื— ื”ืงื ืื™ ื”ื•ื ื‘ื, ื•ืœื ืžืฆื“ ื”ื‘ื•ืขืœ. ื•ื‘ื–ื” ืžื•ื‘ืŸ โ€ฆ ื›ื™ืฆื“ ื”ื™ื” ืžื•ืชืจ ืœื• (=ืœื–ืžืจื™) ืœื”ืจื•ื’ ืืช ืคื™ื ื—ืก, ืขื“ ืฉืืคื™ืœื• ืœื ื™ืชื—ื™ื™ื‘ ืขืœ ื›ืš. ืื‘ืœ ืœื“ื‘ืจื™ื ื• ืฉื—ื™ื•ื‘ ื”ืžื™ืชื” ื‘ื ื“ื•ื•ืงื ื›ืืฉืจ ื”ืงื ืื™ื ืคื•ื’ืขื™ื ื‘ื• ื•ืœื ืงื•ื“ื ืœื›ืŸ, ื ืžืฆื ืฉืœืคื ื™ ืฉื ื”ืจื’ ื–ืžืจื™, ืœื ื”ื™ื” ื”ื•ื ื‘ืืžืช ื—ื™ื™ื‘ ืžื™ืชื”

    In any case, the deed must be done in front of ten Jews exactly at the time of the deed (Rambam, Hilchot Issurei Biah 11:4). If the boel kills the kanai he is exempt from punishment. I would imagine that there would have to be a trial to determine if the killer is really a kanai. There might even be a determination by the authorities in their right and duty to maintain public order (mishpat hamelech) that no one today is on that level, as Rav Charlap suggests.

    #1609665

    akuperma
    Participant

    And he didn’t intend to kill the person in question, so arguably it is only manslaughter (negligence) though usually when you try to murder someone, bungle, and kill a bystander it is prosecuted as premeditated murder (the difference under traditional English law was the difference between the gallows and having to move to America or Australia).

    But would we really want a headling saying “INCOMPETENT HAREIDI MANSLAUGHTER”

    #1609903

    Loshenhora
    Participant

    When bringing up the topic the intention was not
    about the person who.commited the crime
    It was about frum or chareidi and the meaning of
    the words
    Can anyone call themselves frum or chareidi?
    When one looks around the world it seems
    that there are very few
    Unless the words have different meanings
    To what most.understand them to mean

    #1609962

    Avi K
    Participant

    L, I started on thread on that subject. You are invited to comment.

    #1610259

    Loshenhora
    Participant

    AviK
    That’s exactly my point how can we call ourselves
    Frum
    No one under the sun has not sinned

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