October 21, 2018 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1607933
How can a headline read “chareidi murderer” on the YWN homepage?October 21, 2018 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1607989
It seems that Jews are more concerned with this than the increasing depravity among the secular Israelies, which creep into the Mizrachi spectrum.October 21, 2018 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1608001Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
YWN is not such a hardline frum organization. Their bias is centrist-Orthodox at best. This headline really doesn’t surprise me at all.October 21, 2018 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1608005philosopherParticipant
Both are troubling but Mizrachi and secular spiritual decline is definitely worse, like a spreading cancer.October 21, 2018 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1608017
There is a well known respected Rav who called this man a pinchas. So could be he is chareidi…October 21, 2018 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1608034Takes2-2tangoParticipant
If this charedi man won a billion dollar lottery , would you have an issue with the headline?
Charedi man wins billion dollar lottery?
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.October 21, 2018 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1608038👑RebYidd23Participant
Takes2, is winning the lottery an un-Chareidi thing to do?October 21, 2018 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1608032philosopherParticipant
I mean a Chareidi murderer is troubling, not the headline.October 21, 2018 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1608053
Chabadshlucha: Which Rav?
OP: It sells papers. (Or, in this case, clicks.)October 21, 2018 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1608062GadolhadorahParticipant
Agreed. More accurate to characterize him as a “Sick Animal Dressed in Charedi Lvush”.
To No. 1…..yes we are more concerned about a murderer than debating alternative lifestyles in EY. If it was your daughter who happened to be the victim, I doubt if you would be giving musar to the tzibur about Toevah lifestyles.October 21, 2018 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1608101
It seems this topic has slipped through the YWN,
net as it has been ignored numerous times
by the adjudicator
Surly chareidi murderer is a contradiction
It is incongrant
Once one murders he can only be an
exchareidi, or a so called chareidi
Unless chareidi has another meaning to
my.understanding, pray tell what it meansOctober 21, 2018 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1608102
I hope to not have a daughter not attend a toeiva paradeOctober 21, 2018 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1608118
What is a chareidi
Can’t mean orthodox as surly one cant be classed
As an orthodox murdererOctober 21, 2018 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1608110
Seems you ignored similar topic did this slip
This headline is a contradiction in terms
Exchareidi, or so called chareidi would sit better
Unless chareidi means how one dressesOctober 22, 2018 12:44 am at 12:44 am #1608222
One can not call themselves chareidi if they
Are mechalel shabbos
The same torah that tells us about shabbos tells
Us about murder
How then can YWN refer to a chareidi murderer?
Unless YWN has gone rogue !!!October 22, 2018 6:44 am at 6:44 am #1608286
Unfortunately, “Chareidi” has become an quasi-ethnic group complete with identification politics (see the complaints about Judge Freier) as has “Chiloni”. Rav Kook decried this in Massa haMachanot and wrote that it prevents teshuva as the former think that they are without sin and the latter think that a religious concept does not apply to them. IMHO, this may have been Acher’s mistake.October 22, 2018 8:44 am at 8:44 am #1608256
Unless it was justified by the admiring of perversion in our times. Was pinchas a murderer? Yes but he was chareidi. I didn’t come up with this one. The Rav was Rav Dovid Schochet of Toronto – not a regular person at all. Aside from being a Rav, he interprets dreams and the Rebbe told him to give brachos on simchas Torah. He’s predicted how the year will go then, truthfully, for people I know, in his Brocha. In other circles he would probably be a Rebbe himself. In any case since he said it I can respect that it may be the truth.October 22, 2018 8:44 am at 8:44 am #1608275
Although with my username CS I should clarify that this is highly unusual and is not the typical Chabad approach at all (to condone extremism in the name of kanaus). That’s why it stuck with me until today.October 22, 2018 8:53 am at 8:53 am #1608332
CS, your point is to compare Pinchas to Yishai?October 22, 2018 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1608676
Yeah the Rav said it was an act of pinchas in shul the week after it happenedOctober 23, 2018 12:23 am at 12:23 am #1609332
That’s a brave position to say, CS, since the liberals (including the ones who self-identify as Orthodox) are sure to attack anyone expressing it. Bravo.October 23, 2018 6:13 am at 6:13 am #1609339
If YWN had the intention that this person
was a Pinchos then the headline would have
Kanoy murderer and not chareidi..
Anyway is there such a thing as frum or chareidi
Besides a handful of gedolim and lamed vov niksOctober 23, 2018 6:18 am at 6:18 am #1609342
CS, I looked him up and he seems to be a reputable rav so I cannot believe that he said what you claim. In fact, Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg said that if he had a nickel for every time he was misquoted he would be a rich man. When someone complained to Rav Moshe about the Chatam Sofer being misquoted he said “People misquote me and I’m still alive”. Even in the Gemara there are arguments between chachamim over what tehre rav said with each swearing that he was correct. In any case, Schlisel is clearly an extremely disturbed person. I would classify him as Chareidi except in the colloquial sense. The same goes for “Chareidi” fraudsters.October 23, 2018 6:18 am at 6:18 am #1609343👑RebYidd23Participant
Would it be brave to say it if you disagreed with it, Joseph?October 23, 2018 8:49 am at 8:49 am #1609408
Avik I will freely admit that I didn’t hear it myself but heard it from someone who was there. If I remember correctly(and there was no broken telephone) what was stated was that this was an act of pinchas, not that the man himself was like pinchas. There’s a distinction.October 23, 2018 8:49 am at 8:49 am #1609415anonymous JewParticipant
So, if ,as some commenters are maintaining, he is not chareidi by committing murder, then he doesn’t belong in the Torah wing of the prison, nor should he be allowed to have a beard or nonstandard prison garb.
You can’t have it both ways.October 23, 2018 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1609501Takes2-2tangoParticipant
When hashem wrote on the luchos(tablets) לא תרצח. (Thou shall not murder), was it writin only for a certain jewish denomination? Excluding charedim?October 23, 2018 10:14 am at 10:14 am #1609497
CS: How would you explain the difference between saying that Yishai Schlisel did an act of Pinchas versus saying that Yishai Schlisel is like Pinchas?October 23, 2018 10:14 am at 10:14 am #1609498
CS, what is an “act of Pinchas”? A woman entering a shul during a chachnasat sefer Torah is not listed as one of the jobs of a kanai. Does that mean that if the guard had shoved him back she would have been justified? It may have been a maaseh Rav Ada bar Ahava (Berachot 20a) but then he might have to pay her a large sum of money as compensation (ibid).
AJ, personally I think that in general the rules of the “Torah wing” are criminal coddling. I even heard from a relative of his that a certain “rav” is very happy there as he has a chevruta with another “rav” and so far they have learned 200 pages of Gemara.October 23, 2018 10:33 am at 10:33 am #1609379
Joseph, I appreciate the compliment but I have not been attacked. I think the reason is that people find it unacceptable when they sense someone is out to look for the bad in other communities or enjoy violence and are eager to use Torah to condone extremism, cause conflict or strife, violence or judgment when in truth the ways of Torah are peaceful. In truth we are meant to overlook individual faults of others and focus on where we need to grow so that Hashem will look at klal Yisrael in the same light.
However sometimes urgent situations arise which may necessitate extreme actions, even cause conflict by taking a stand against what is popular and what the community pretends is fine when it isn’t.
Since there are such legitimate situations which are not ideal, people get all the more upset when people who just enjoy violence and conflict try to guise their own character flaw by finding a source in Torah to condone it.
Generally the Rebbe’s approach was not to condone extremism, conflict or violence (pinchas was a rare instance that happened once, not an everyday desert
occurrence), and the Rebbe constantly looked and empowered the good in every Jew and person although there were situations where the Rebbe had to take a strong stand against popular notions.
I and the others were quite surprised when we heard of the Ravs words, because he is not an extremist who enjoys violence / machlokes at all and is a very special holy person. Precisely because it was so out of character it opened us to seeing that this may be the truth in this situation, an exception to the usual rule.October 23, 2018 11:33 am at 11:33 am #1609565
CS, if it was out of character maybe he did not exactly say that. Rabbanim very often make nuanced statements that different people hear according to what they want to hear. Once some people took a dispute to Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook. As soon as they left they argued over what he said.October 23, 2018 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1609590
Avik he was not referring to thus instance rather by the stabbing at the immoral parade in the heart of the holy city. Sorry I thought that was obvious. Glad I clarified.October 23, 2018 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1609593
Joseph and avik: to be of the caliber of pinchas one would have to be a normal (healthy emotionally) person who usually abhors violence and in this one case his tremendous yiras shomayim would not allow him to countenance an outrageous chillul Hashem, so he went against his normally peaceful nature to defend Hashem’s honour. I don’t think anyone would classify shlissel as such as he had been in jail just before, aside from questions on his mental health.
However an act of pinchas denotes an act that would normally be abhorrent but in this specific case is justified to the the extreme circumstances : in this case having an unashamedly proud immoral parade in the heart of the holy city.October 23, 2018 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1609594ChadGadyaParticipant
Schlissel certainly believed he was following in the footsteps of Pinchas and doing a good deed. He was not wantonly killing to willfully indulge his yetzer hara to murder someone. He may have been misguided and wrong, and if so it is certainly his fault that he did not better educate himself, but how does this mistake make him not Chareidi?
It sounds like it is obvious to most of the posters here that there is no comparison between Schlissel and Pinchas, yet do any of you have a source which explicitly says that the halacha of “kana’im pog’im bo” does not apply nowadays? If not, what kind of acts would you agree do warrant someone killing the perpetrator of? If a prominent Jewish leader were to publicly and willfully have relations with a non-jew (exactly what Zimri did), and someone who is genuinely motivated leshem shamayim would kill them, would that be wrong? If so, how is that different to what Pinchas did?October 23, 2018 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1609595
Avik: it is possible especially as I was not there personally although the people came home saying the above. I don’t generally defend murderers or their ilk so I have no problem being proven wrong :). In any case I just thought it was an interesting note and perspective to introduce to the discussionOctober 23, 2018 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1609615
He might have been wrong, but the abominable acts being committed by secular Israelis, which is slowly creeping into the “religious Zionist” spectrum, should make every religious Jew mad. Things don’t end pretty when people sin in the land if Israel. Review the last 2 parshas.October 23, 2018 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1609638
ChadGadya. The Halacha of kana’im pog’im bo is certainly alive and in effect today and it is a mitzvah to carry out today, including in the hypothetical example you gave.October 23, 2018 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #1609645
According to Rav Charlap (Mei Marom Bamidbar vol. 11 p. 167)
עצם הדין שהבועל ארמית חייב מיתה אינו אלא בזמן שיש קנאים. שאלה מתוך הרגשתם בקדושת ישראל ורוממותם, באים לגלות את הקדושה הזאת, ומתוך זה מתחייב הלה מיתה. אבל כאשר אין קנאים, ואין כאלו המתעוררים על עומק קדושתם של ישראל, באמת אין הלה חייב מיתה. חיוב המיתה מכח הקנאי הוא בא, ולא מצד הבועל. ובזה מובן … כיצד היה מותר לו (=לזמרי) להרוג את פינחס, עד שאפילו לא יתחייב על כך. אבל לדברינו שחיוב המיתה בא דווקא כאשר הקנאים פוגעים בו ולא קודם לכן, נמצא שלפני שנהרג זמרי, לא היה הוא באמת חייב מיתה
In any case, the deed must be done in front of ten Jews exactly at the time of the deed (Rambam, Hilchot Issurei Biah 11:4). If the boel kills the kanai he is exempt from punishment. I would imagine that there would have to be a trial to determine if the killer is really a kanai. There might even be a determination by the authorities in their right and duty to maintain public order (mishpat hamelech) that no one today is on that level, as Rav Charlap suggests.October 23, 2018 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #1609665akupermaParticipant
And he didn’t intend to kill the person in question, so arguably it is only manslaughter (negligence) though usually when you try to murder someone, bungle, and kill a bystander it is prosecuted as premeditated murder (the difference under traditional English law was the difference between the gallows and having to move to America or Australia).
But would we really want a headling saying “INCOMPETENT HAREIDI MANSLAUGHTER”October 23, 2018 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1609903
When bringing up the topic the intention was not
about the person who.commited the crime
It was about frum or chareidi and the meaning of
Can anyone call themselves frum or chareidi?
When one looks around the world it seems
that there are very few
Unless the words have different meanings
To what most.understand them to meanOctober 24, 2018 6:38 am at 6:38 am #1609962
L, I started on thread on that subject. You are invited to comment.October 24, 2018 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1610259
That’s exactly my point how can we call ourselves
No one under the sun has not sinned
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