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  • #605280

    I just came across this as a comment on an article:

    “I just read an artical from America Airlines that they are adding leg room. They are getting 100?s of new plains.”

    My eyes hurt after reading this. Isn’t anyone else bothered by this?

    #900203

    No. Don’t be so picky. Everyone can understand the author’s intent, even if it took a few extra seconds.

    Did you fail to understand the writer’s point?

    #900204

    smartcookie
    Member

    The litvishe- sorry, people have got to learn to spell right, otherwise it shows of some lack in intelligence or education.

    The Chassidishe, this isn’t the first error I’ve come across in publications or websites…yeah it irks me…oh well…

    #900205

    mogold
    Participant

    Mr. Chassidishe Gatesheader,

    Please practice what you preach….. The following is part of a comment posted by you a few months ago, in the “confiscating shoe” issue

    “After being reminded the first couple fo weeks of every school year, anyone who forgot tgeir sneakers”

    MY eyes hurt reading this…..

    #900206

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    The frum newspapers and magazines used to to full of such errors, butit’s been a long time since I’ve seen such. Hamodea,Mishpacha and the Yated have very high standards. Since I no longer bother reading to Jewish Press I don’t know if they’ve improved.

    #900207

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    No, because it rightfully reflects their incompetence. Why would you want the idiots running around spouting proper diction and locution? That would scare me…

    #900208

    2scents
    Participant

    smartcookie,

    just a correction, it shows a lack of secular education. Equal to those that show up at a minyan to say kadish and hardly manage to get it right..

    #900209

    Naysberg
    Member

    Lack of a secular education is a positive attribute and something a Jew can be proud of.

    #900210

    yehudayona
    Participant

    It’s not frum English. It’s just bad (or careless) English, as practiced by many or most English speakers, Jewish or not.

    Here’s frum English: He has what to learn about writing a decent sentence.

    #900211

    akuperma
    Participant

    English is a very hard language to spell. In part since whereas most languages are spelled the way they are pronounced, English sort of reflects pronounciation in the 15th century, when Normal French and Anglo-Saxon were still merging into modern English. Also English’s power comes from its ability to absorb many words from other languages, together with their own spelling quirks.

    In all fairness, yeshiva graduates are just as good at spelling as most other people. It would be nice if we all had “posh” language skills, but that’s not realistic. Actually, given that the typical hareidi kid in the USA is trilingual (English, Hebrew and Yiddish), he’s in a good situation to develop serious linguistic competencies if he needs to.

    #900212

    Yeshivishsocrates1
    Participant

    Considering the prerequisital double helping of language skills that is commonplace in Jewish establishments of education, the sub standard writing abilities in religious circles is to be expected. It is however pretty harmless, as is mentioned above, communication is about conveying information so any attempts which meet that requirement are sufficient. Language evolves over time and at risk of incurring the wrath of Jewish logophiles worldwide, words erode with the melting brains of the generations. Words, in languages other than lashon hakodesh are defined by the way they are used and so, the faster the erroneous spellings of words spread, the faster they become commonplace and therefor correct. I’m not saying that the above is particularly brilliant, it’s far from it, but it conveyed the desired message and helped the erosion of the English language on its rapid descent to its guttural, monosyllabic and crude destination.

    #900213

    Feif Un
    Participant

    yaakov doe: The Yated and Hamodia may have high standards when it comes to grammar, but their standards when it comes to content are lacking terribly.

    #900214

    WIY
    Member

    Bad spelling usually comes from lack of reading and writing skills. Additionally, today’s kids do most of their reading and writing via text im and email using internet slang and shorthand so they are ruining their ability to spell correctly. Its a mageifa. I force myself to spell words out in texting and online because I dont want to forget how to spell and write like a mensch.

    #900215

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I’d rather not discuss any particular paper or publication, it’s probably first class expedited lashon hara. (don’t know for sure, though)

    #900216

    Yeshivishsocrates1
    Participant

    What makes Longhand more correct than shorthand? it’s the simple evolution of language doing battle with the older generations propensity to cling to the rocks rooting them to the past to avoid the terrifying waves of the future. You’ll notice that despite your valiant efforts, this is a fight which you won’t win. Notice your relief at the fact that we no longer speak English like they did hundreds of years ago, no one speaks like Shakeapeare anymore. In fact someone who did would experience difficulty in being understood. Do you mean to suggest that the ‘proper’ English of today is more ‘mentchlich’ than the English of the days of yore? Surely not and so, you too appreciate the evolving nature of communication. The ubiquitous lamentations of the proud older generation is irrational and just arrogant. (not that I mean to suggest anything of the sort about you personally, I don’t even know if you are indeed older than I am) Do they also ‘force themselves’ to adhere to the mentchlich horse and cart over the mageifa of the modern day automobile? This has nothing to do with correctness or otherwise, it’s merely a fallacious belief that your education exceeds the so called education of the succeeding generation and so this condemnation of the way things have become. Once more, if a message is successful in delivering its intended content without causing any difficulty to the one who has to decipher it, it shouldt be problematic in any way.

    #900217

    Yeshivishsocrates1
    Participant

    Oh and my mistake, at least one that I just noticed, the lamentations are, not the lamentations is. Apologies.

    #900218

    frummy in the tummy
    Participant

    mogold – In my opinion, there is a huge difference between someone who makes a simple typo and someone who lacks the fundamental skills to write a grammatically correct sentence.

    Chassidishe – Keep preaching.

    #900219

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Judging someone as uneducated by the spelling in a comment made online is unfair. For all you know, English might be this guy’s 7th language.

    One of my Calculus II teachers was Chinese, and she could barely spell. My physics professor was a French astrophysicist, and he would always say “substract” instead of “subtract.”

    #900220

    nfgo3
    Member

    To Chasiddishe Gatesheader: If the writer to whom you object is not a native speaker of English, i.e., he was not born in an English-speaking country, and/or he has no formal education in the English language, we should give him/her a pass on his errors, even if it makes our eyes hurt. If, however, he/she is born in the US and educated in the US, his/her English skills are disgraceful. And if he/she was educated in a yeshiva or Jewish girls’ school, we should be alarmed that such expensive education gets such mediocre results.

    #900221

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    are we all talking about the same thing? this is a BLOG with USER comments.

    this isn’t college level writing, 101.

    these are people’s thoughts, off the fly. do you think, rethink, formulate grammar, rethink and correct yourself every time you say something? comon.

    #900222

    @mogold

    “Mr. Chassidishe Gatesheader,

    Please practice what you preach….. The following is part of a comment posted by you a few months ago, in the “confiscating shoe” issue

    “After being reminded the first couple fo weeks of every school year, anyone who forgot tgeir sneakers”

    MY eyes hurt reading this…..”

    I didn’t write that. Can you give a link? I don’t remember any topic like that and don’t remember writing anything like that quote…

    Anyway, I know this is mostly an American issue. It just amazes me that I, who never learned English anywhere, don’t make such horrible mistakes (though my grammar may sometimes be less than optimal). If that is how write in your mother tongue, then how do you write in the other languages you know?

    Oh, right, Americans don’t know any other languages.

    Seriously, why don’t frum schools teach any languages like Spanish, French, or German? Or maybe Russian or Chinese? I think learning at least two foreign languages for a couple of years should be required of each child. That’s the law in Europe. Why should the US be any different?

    (I know I’ll probably get keelhauled for writing this.)

    #900223

    They learn English, Yiddish and Loshon Kodesh.

    Three languages is much better than most goyim.

    And for many of them Yiddish is their first language while English is only their second language.

    #900224

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    The Chassidishe Gatesheader-

    r u 4rel abt ur lst q?

    English is the official language for more countries than any other language.

    Face it. the US is the world leader in power, finance and influence.

    #900225

    haifagirl
    Participant

    English is the official language for more countries than any other language.

    Face it. the US is the world leader in power, finance and influence.

    Until China takes over!

    #900226

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    TCG,

    Here’s the link, but apparently it was not you.

    Confiscating Shoes

    Ironically, though, in your reply, you wrote, “If that is how write in your mother tongue”, omitting the word “you”.

    No big deal, we all make mistakes (and the same applies to the “100’s of plains” error).

    #900227

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mogold,

    Wrong guy.

    #900228

    mogold
    Participant

    TO The Chassidishe Gatesheader.

    I apoligize that I confused you with Goldesgreener who actualy wrote the typo I quoted in your name, sorry.

    The fact is thata lot of frum people learn how to speak & write 3 languages from a very early age.

    Hebrew

    Yiddish

    English

    with the most effort being put into lerning the first 2, so English often is the 3rd language, so obviously we are not so proficient in the English language.

    However despite the somewhat lower degree of using the english language,a lot of people have become very successful in business, and we all know of brilliant highly educated collage graduates who are penniless.

    #900229

    Yeshivishsocrates1
    Participant

    Quick, funny and relevant anecdote; just spoke to a smart bochur at a reputable yeshiva who told me about his ‘demandetory’ shower. Hehehehe.

    #900230

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    TCG: Girls’ schools do. BYBP has options of French, Spanish, Russian (and Yiddish :P), Manhattan High offers Mandarin, and my high school offered French (at the expense of Yiddish – they dropped the Yiddish class my freshman year).

    #900231

    mogold
    Participant

    OneOfMany

    I and I asuume a lot of other people were very offended when I read your comment:

    “No, because it rightfully reflects their incompetence. Why would you want the idiots running around spouting proper diction and locution?”

    which implies that if someone isnt so articulate in the English language they are an idiot, which is very offensive & false.

    I then read a later comment of yours , where you state that your school offered French, but dropped Yiddish, why did they drop yiddish ? isnt it indictative that you & your fellow students were incapable of learning a 3rd language in high school?!?!

    And you have the chutzpa to call us idiots?!?!

    my 9 year old son currently studies 3 languages every day & he is not in high school…..

    #900232

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    I believe that a person must have a solid (it need not be articulate) command of one language. If they don’t, then they are incompetent. If they feel superior in a shaky command of several languages, then I would call them an idiot.

    Did that help clarify things?

    #900233

    Naysberg
    Member

    OneOfMany: And these folks, indeed, have a solid command of Yiddish and/or Hebrew. So their English (as a second language) is understandably not up to par.

    #900234

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    If they did, they would be more apologetic about their English, not less.

    #900235

    mogold
    Participant

    If I have a solid command of Hebrew & Yiddish & lets say a somewhat shaky command of english, then I’m an idiot.

    So you who has a solid command of English and lets assume Hebrew , but have a shaky or less, command of yiddish are a…. ???

    #900236

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Why are you making this about English? Because it isn’t. It’s also not about me (or you).

    #900237

    Naysberg
    Member

    So, then, what is this about?

    And no need to be apologetic about a language one is not up to speed with.

    #900238

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Joseph: There is no need to be apologetic about not knowing a language. That is logically absurd.

    However, when one is talking/writing/posting to an audience that speaks a specific language, and they cannot communicate effectively, and they are belligerently defensive and even proud of their ineptitude, then there is nothing to call them other than idiotic. And nothing short of disclaiming their proficiency in that language before their piece is going to make them look less like a blundering fool. Again, there is nothing wrong with not knowing something. But putting yourself in front of those who do and and proudly claiming ignorance is a good way to prove yourself impervious to knowledge of any kind.

    #900239

    Naysberg
    Member

    I said no need to be apologetic about ones languages skills being less than perfect. I did not say anything about not knowing a language.

    And, furthermore, no one — certainly not the poster the OP criticized — was belligerent about their language skills.

    #900240

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Yes, that’s what I said.

    And unless any given person is going to give some account for why they are trying to speak in a mutant language, then I will assume that they think it natural and defensible – which makes them an idiot.

    Shall we go at this for another half a dozen rounds, or shall I let you make your scintillating rejoinder and leave it at that?

    #900241

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Not to embarrass anyone, but some of the posters here who are criticizing others’ writing need to work on number agreement of pronouns. “One” and “any [person]” are singular. “They” and “them” are plural.

    #900242

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    GARNER’S MODERN ENGLISH USAGE

    PRONOUNS

    D. Indefinite Pronouns: Number. Traditionally, indefinite pronouns (anybody, anyone, etcetera) have been considered invariably singular. Indeed, as the subject of a verb, each of those terms must be singular…

    [deleted examples]

    But, often, as in the following sentences [not shown], the sense undoubtedly carries the idea of plurality from an antecedent pronoun to a referent one…Try changing them to he, and you end up with deranged writing. SYNESIS dictates that logic trumps the strict rules of grammar with these words in transition…

    [deleted examples]

    Although everybody and everyone carry the strongest suggestions of plurality, the other indefinite pronouns are almost as natural antecedents with they and them. That’s because they has increasingly moved toward singular senses. (See SEXISM (B).) Disturbing though these developments may seem to purists, they’re irreversible. And nothing that a grammarian says will change them.

    ______

    One thing you will learn if you pursue and interest in writing – in many cases the rules are sacrificed for good style. And that’s a rule.

    But you have to look the thingamajig up in Garner’s or CMoS first. 😛

    #900243

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    @tcg

    Many of the Jewish Schools teach Spanish or French besides Hebrew.

    Yiddish spoken today is not real yiddish its some mangling of classic yiddish and english .

    Spanish is much more useful to speak than yiddish and it can be fun. It shocks some of them when I say things like Bolsa Por Favor (Bag Please)

    #900244

    Spanish is practically useless for the vast majority of Americans. There are very few Spanish speakers in America that cannot communicate in English. And the few that are, let them learn English.

    Yiddish, on the other hand, is very useful for a Jew. It is the international language of Ashkenazic Jewry. Go to Argentina or France or Israel and speak to your fellow Yid in Yiddish.

    #900245

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Zdad,

    If your goal in life is to speak to the grocery bagger, then Spanish is more important. If your goal in life is to talk to others in Torah learning throughout the world and to listen to shiurim, then Yiddish is more important.

    There are way more shiurim and people talking Yiddish while learning than there are doing so whilst speaking Spanish.

    But make sure that when you are picked up para trabajo, you don’t mix up the ropa and basura and take the wrong bolsa.

    #900246

    I could be wrong but here’s what I think – when someone displays a lack of skill in spelling or speaking, it doesn’t actually make them an idiot or take away credibility. There are two problems however: one is simply that if it’s really bad, people won’t understand what you’re trying to say. If it’s at that point, something should be done to bring it up to par.

    The other problem is that unfortunately the metzius is that many people will view you as an idiot (which, in my humble opinion, stems from a craving to feel superior to others). If you don’t care how people look at you, fine. If you do, you should work on your skills.

    Also, I feel that certain people here are being quite obviously self-conscious on this thread specifically, and making much greater efforts than usually to use bombastic speech and to sound sophisticated and “cultured.” That’s just the sense I get.

    Lastly, I strongly agree with yitzchokM. This is a blog for crying out loud

    #900247

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Bombastic, eh? …mmm, I like it. ^_^

    #900248

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Yiddish is useless for anyone. There is not reason anyone should learn it.

    If you want to live in the USA, Learn English, There is no reason any jew should not learn english. Unfortunatly My great-grandfather never could learn english so I could not speak to him. I seriously doubt my mother has spoken yiddish in decades and it was her first language.

    And frankly after seeing people here talk about it, I made it my business to listen more carefully to people who speak it now , and I understand it better than I realized. They do not speak proper yiddish today. Listen to proper yiddish and listen to what is spoken today and its not yiddish. I dont know what it is , but its not yiddish.

    I have been to Paris, and I met some jews there who did not speak English, They were SEPHARDIM and they spoke Hebrew, I spoke to them just fine. If I really need to speak to another jew in a common laguage, More jews speak Hebrew than speak Yiddish, and in fact more jews speak ENGLISH than speak Yiddish.

    #900249

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And BTW I was in Spain and some people tried to ask me directions, I tried to answer them in Spanish and they did not understand. I tried to answer in english and they also did not understand and I gave up.

    Then all of a sudden I heard them speak Hebrew and I was able to help them. They were shocked that someone in Spain spoke Hebrew (With an american accent of course) and then they were super friendly and they invited me to Israel (Which most Israelis do when they realize you are jewish and speak Hebrew)

    #900250

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Zdad,

    Thanks for clarifying. You believe it is pointless to learn a language in which there are many shiurim. And which learning is done universally.

    You try to prove some point, not sure what it is, by telling me about some story in Paris. You weren’t talking in learning. That’s for sure.

    How’s your Spanish? The rest,basura.

    And as far as what is proper Yiddish, Yiddish has always been an amalgam that included the local language. Ivrit is no more a real language with bits and pieces coming from other languages as well.

    Perhaps you should analyze the real reason you have such hate for people who speak Yiddish.

    #900251

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most Shiurim are given in ENGLISH not Yiddish, I supposed if you rarely venture out of such places like williamsburg you would not realize this, but most are in english. Most jews speak english (probably more than even Hebrew).

    And I dont have hate for people who speak yiddish, My mother spoke it first (I dont know if she speaks it anymore as I dont think she has spoken it much in a real long time) and I never really figured out if my father speaks it or not.

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