August 2, 2022 2:32 am at 2:32 am #2111042
There was a thread from 2014 in the CR regarding frum female singers who put videos of themselves on YouTube singing. Yesterday someone revived it but a few hours later it was removed entirely. This was likely because the title named a specific singer. So, without naming anyone but rather discussing the issue generally, three posters (including DaasYochid) opposed it for various reasons, the most prominent being lifnei iver. Others retorted that there’s plenty of goyish singers men can avail themselves to if they’re so inclined. (As if that excuses it.)
But the reality is that DaasYochid and the others are absolutely correct. Yidden have a natural tendency to be attracted to other Jews. (Much as other ethnicities and racial groups are more inclined to their own kin.) So when a Jewess R”L posts a video of herself singing on YouTube, where it is freely, easily, readily and anonymously available, it undoubtedly will be viewed by Jewish men who are prohibited from hearing and seeing it. Everyone knows this well in advance. Some of the comments in the old CR thread even indicated that frum boys/men were posting comments on these YouTube videos praising it.
This is all before discussing the related severe problem of photographers taking videos of women dancing at Chasunas. Can anyone name even a single Posek or Rov whoever permitted this? Otherwise, what’s the heter of taking videos that WILL be displayed and viewed by men? Does anyone know of any cases where the men in the family run out of the room when it starts showing the women dancing while playing the Chasuna video? Even if they do run out, they’re too late.August 2, 2022 8:31 am at 8:31 am #2111203tunaisafishParticipant
I wouldn’t think a public Jewish figure, how much more so a female singer where things are more complicated, would do anything big such as releasing music videos on YouTube or CDs etc. without having advice and had guidelines established by THEIR Asei Lecho Rav, in case you were wondering i think the position is already taken. The real question is with YOU! If you end up in a vulnerable position where you may be listening to something Assur for YOU then the question is on YOU! Should Avraham Fried not put his music videos on YouTube because some Jew might be “have a natural tendency to be attracted to” authentic Jewish music and thus watch Avraham frieds music on Shabbos. In order to avoid this Avraham Fried Has it written on his CDs not to watch on Shabbos similarly the female Jewish singers whom I am referring to have it written in the titles of their videos clearly “For Women and Girls Only”. I don’t find it right that Self proclaimed TJW (Tznius Justice Warriors) Namely men whom involve themselves in all matters of tznius with women despite a lack of rabbinical approval in their “Expert” area, keep making threads in Lace sheitels, short skirts, and other areas which should only be addressed by someone who is rabbinically approved in this area and is the “Asei Lecho Rav” of the women or girls he is addressing.August 2, 2022 8:33 am at 8:33 am #2111233Shmiras HaloshonParticipant
Quote (sorry I don’t know the right way to do this): “This is all before discussing the related severe problem of photographers taking videos of women dancing at Chasunas. Can anyone name even a single Posek or Rov whoever permitted this? Otherwise, what’s the heter of taking videos that WILL be displayed and viewed by men? Does anyone know of any cases where the men in the family run out of the room when it starts showing the women dancing while playing the Chasuna video? Even if they do run out, they’re too late.”
In Eretz Yisroel, it’s common to have a female photographer for the women’s side.
When we show our children’s wedding videos to the family, we skip the parts that have women dancing. I’m sure we’re not the only ones.August 2, 2022 8:33 am at 8:33 am #2111237besalelParticipant
The idea here is that women don’t live in a man’s world. Rather, men and women share this world and need to learn how to give each other the privacy and respect so that each gender has an opportunity to enjoy it.
Women like to remember the good times they had at a wedding and they like listening (and creating) music and would like to participate in these healthy kosher activities without being encroached upon by men. So if men would kindly give women the privacy and respect we can share this planet without abusing each other’s rights.August 2, 2022 8:34 am at 8:34 am #2111238BaltimoreMavenParticipant
I believe Lifnei Iver applies only when there is only one possible supplier of the assur product. Otherwise it’s mesayahu lidvar ha’assur which is drabbonon
Our chasuna videos have separate sections for men’s dancing, with the entire chasuna, and an entirely separate video which includes women’s dancing
I’m not sure how the YouTube issue differs from the sale of women’s only DVDs. Just don’t watch them.August 2, 2022 8:34 am at 8:34 am #2111243akupermaParticipant
There is no prohibition of women signing. The prohibition is on men listening to them. On YouTube, no one makes you listen or watch anything – you have to click on something to make it play.August 2, 2022 9:25 am at 9:25 am #2111261Reb EliezerParticipant
The Chasam Sofer questions if the women are allowed to sing in shul for the honor of the King? He says that the honor is that they don’t sing to show the honor that the King does not ask things that are forbidden to them.August 2, 2022 9:26 am at 9:26 am #2111263lakewhutParticipant
On one hand, it isn’t so bderech tznius. On the other, it can give a bas yisroel a positive influence on YouTube. Would you rather a Jewish girl watch a video of a goyish singer on YouTube or her to watch a video of a Jewish female singer that can bring her inspiration? We’re not in the vilna ghetto anymore.August 2, 2022 11:27 am at 11:27 am #2111289
Ujm, there is a heter for photographers, that when one is “tarud bemelacha” busy with work, they are not meharher – “the velt” says this, and i can look into it if there are teshuvos (im sure there are in general, but not sure if this heter is mentioned).
Re YouTube – i agree that YouTube isn’t a place for any ehrlich person, besides kiruv and the like. Whether it’s technically lifnei eiver or not, i don’t know. It’s also not tznius for a jewish woman to have her face all over the world.August 2, 2022 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #2111328Reb EliezerParticipant
There is a lot of good stuff on youtube as my son’s wedding searched by lipa macarena where lipa schmeltzer is singing Aishes Chayil to them. The kalever ztz’l singing Szol a kakas mar. People who are not here anymore live on in their performance.August 2, 2022 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #2111334
Avira, I would be interested to hear if you know of any heterim for photographers in this regard. “Shmiras Haloshon”, above, wrote that in Eretz Yisroel it frequently is the case that they hire women photographers specifically to avoid this problem. Yet, in America, that is usually not the case.
That said, my primary concern regarding videography of women dancing at Chasunas was the issue of who will be watching the wedding videos later. I made some comments above in that regard.
“Shmiras Haloshon” wrote that by him they skip the parts of the videos showing the women dancing, when the family watches the Chasuna video. That’s highly commendable, of course. But the professional video editing usually inserts women dancing and men dancing, switching back and forth between the two very frequently and many times. It would seem to me that it would be rather very difficult to properly skip the women dancing every time by fast forwarding it again and again and again. And even if you tried that, you’d still unavoidably see it the beginning of each time the video starts playing it, until you get to fast forwarding it. (And even during the fast forwarding you’d see it again in fast motion until you find the place where it ends.)
Additionally, let’s be honest — does everyone fast forward to skip those parts of the Chasuna video? Do most people do it?August 2, 2022 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #2111339
I don’t understand the logic to say that “men will anyways hear female singers” –
I assume we are discussing a frum singer who dresses tzniusdik. Why must she dress tzniusdik? People will anyways see immodesty!
Obviously, every person is responsible for themselves to behave tzniusdik in public. The same should seemingly apply to singing –
“קול באשה ערוה, שנאמר כי קולך ערב ומראך נאוה” (Brachos 24a).
The comparison between a CD and YouTube is ridiculous.
On the other hand, @lakewhut has a very important point: Jewish female singers can be a good influence for Jewish girls instead of the other shmutz on youtube.
Of course, like everything in the life of a frum Yid, every singer must consult her personal rov who can inspect the pros and cons and rule accordingly. I assume that they do so, and therefore there is really no need for us to tell them what to do.August 2, 2022 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #2111375yaakov doeParticipant
My advice is don’t watch or listen. You should not be looking ay Youtube to begin with.August 2, 2022 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #2111382HaKatanParticipant
I wouldn’t say that it’s “usually not the case” that there is a separate female photographer for the women, but it depends on the social circle, sect, etc.August 2, 2022 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #2111384
some people also get psak to be where one should not for parnosa purposes.
As to youtube, two technical solutions:
1) filters (or not watching youtube)
2) start frumtube or wutube where membership will be verified by gender as certified by a RavAugust 2, 2022 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #2111393
BaltimoreMaven’s approach, where the ladies dancing videos are kept on a separate DVD from the main wedding video, is pretty good. Combining that with only female photographers/videographers for the ladies, is a pretty effective solution. Obviously no men, including the Choson and other family members, should ever be watching the ladies dancing DVD.August 2, 2022 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #2111406bored_teen 💕Participant
I saw the topic and I didn’t even have to check who the OP was!August 2, 2022 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #2111410
Rav Moshe in Even ho’ezer 62 uses the “tarud bemelachto” heter to allow women to swim with a male lifeguard, while saying that wives of talmidei chachamim should not do so. Does he mean to allow a man to have such a job? Possibly not.August 2, 2022 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2111411
Menachem made an excellent point. There’s no discernable Halachic difference between a frum woman putting up a YouTube video of herself singing than her putting up a YouTube video of herself swimming in any swim outfit.August 2, 2022 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #2111482
Avira, what if the man’s only professional achievement were in swimming and this is an only legit job he could get? I know someone who got a psak to work in a ballet studio. Decided not to use it, though.August 3, 2022 2:59 am at 2:59 am #2111516
AAQ; Perhaps he should work for the sanitation department. They pay well, and he’s obviously physically fit.August 3, 2022 4:22 am at 4:22 am #2111528fghijParticipant
As a frum woman, I have hard time justifying men complain at the lack of tznius in public areas. While they are technically right but lower the volume, men! Are we to expect a frum man to be so fickle as to have no control of where his eyes roam?! Maybe learn self control to a degree.August 3, 2022 10:19 am at 10:19 am #2111581
“Are we to expect a frum man to be so fickle as to have no control of where his eyes roam?!”
As a frum woman, you clearly know nothing about men (frum or not).
Also, often you are victimizing yourself by thinking that the complaints are coming by men who feel affected by women’s behavior. We men like to complain about EVERYTHING. Whenever we see something that seems to be an infringement on halacha or hashkafa, we like to make a whole tumult about it. Whether it is being done by women, men, children, politicians, or the government – we always have big טענות and start threads about it, etc.
Next time you see a man complaining about tznius, don’t think it’s a personal attack on you, realize that it’s just another halacha that he feels was violated that he has to shout about.August 3, 2022 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2111584
‘Are we to expect a frum man to be so fickle as to have no control of where his eyes roam?! Maybe learn self control to a degree…”
The author of the OP here (and literally dozens of others on the same theme) is apparently a poster-child for the lack of self control among a segment of the male frum tzibur who has projected his weakness and lack of self-discipline on everyone else. You don’t originate 183 threads on variations of your tzinius adiction without some really perverted agenda.August 3, 2022 11:27 am at 11:27 am #2111731
‘Are we to expect a frum man to be so fickle as to have no control of where his eyes roam?! Maybe learn self control to a degree…”
Ayin is gematria “kal,” because of how effortlessly and swiftly they move and roam. Imagine being extremely hungry and smelling a steak, then being told that not only are you not allowed to smell the steak,but you’re not even allowed to think about it!
Women have very little understanding of men’s challenges; men have little understanding of the daily constant challenge women face to be tznius. Women since high school say “why is it my problem? I want to dress in a provocative way (that’s defined by how men perceive them…)” Men say “what’s the big deal? Just cover up! I wish my whole yiddishkeit was able to be fulfilled by wearing long sleeves and skirts…”
Both are wrong, but a woman’s complaint will leave to broken communities, families, neshomos, and of course being taken to task for any men she was machshil, since it’s lifnei iver.
But seriously, girls talk this way in high school much like they’ll ask “why is it lashon hora if it’s true!” If you’re frum, accept the torah’s view on tznius even if you don’t like it, and even if you don’t like the idea of being a guardian for men you’ve never met.August 3, 2022 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #2111825akupermaParticipant
You Tube always asks you “Do you want to see this (almost) naked lady” or “Do you want to hear a woman signing”. If fact, almost all sites with “inappropriate” materials ask you if you want to see them, or are set up so you have to go looking for it. It’s really no different from the real world (unless a man makes an effort to see a naked lady, he won’t just see one walking down the street).August 3, 2022 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #2111840
What about women who are grossed out by the way so many frum men act and present themselves? Tzinius, after all, is a concept that is NOT restricted to women. Aside from providing a frequent and increasingly childish topic for bored CR trolls, perhaps its time to open your eyes and discuss the REAL tzinius crisisAugust 3, 2022 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #2111882
Avira > Perhaps he should work for the sanitation department.
I am glad that you support the work for yidden rather than taking tzedoka. Warning though: these jobs are lucrative and are often run by mafia. Also there are two guys there and it is not clear which position is more hashuv: the guy upfront thinks “at least I am not actually throwing garbage” and the guy in the back says “this front guy is a slacker while I am really doing the whole job”.August 3, 2022 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #2111888
gadol – lots of things are disgusting. Dead rodents on the street are pretty gross too; it’s a shame that some people have to deal with the frustrations of seeing things that disgust them.
what does that have to do with the soul-destroying power of pritzus in the eyes of a jewish man?August 3, 2022 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #2111909
Even with all the attempted excuses justifying this unjustifiable activity, no one can deny it is a slippery slope. Now it’s singers making YouTube videos of themselves singing. Next it will be female lifeguards making YouTube videos of themselves giving swimming lessons. There’s no Halachic difference between the two. The lifeguards will say if the singers can do it, so can we.August 4, 2022 1:01 am at 1:01 am #2111927
Ujm – there is a pretty big difference. Many poskim hold that it’s not halachikally erva (regarding krias shma, etc) if it’s recorded. You’re still not allowed to listen because it’s obviously stoking the yatzer hora and will lead to hirhurim. Being in a state of undress is erva.August 4, 2022 8:26 am at 8:26 am #2111942
Avira, in both cases they are recordings.August 4, 2022 8:26 am at 8:26 am #2111931Shmiras HaloshonParticipant
Quote: “(And even during the fast forwarding you’d see it again in fast motion until you find the place where it ends.)”
We don’t fast forward it. We skip ahead until we get to the men dancing again.August 4, 2022 11:18 am at 11:18 am #2112006
Ujm has quite an imagination. Women see a huge difference between singing and swimming even if men don’t.August 4, 2022 11:18 am at 11:18 am #2112007
“lots of things are disgusting. Dead rodents on the street are pretty gross too; it’s a shame that some people have to deal with the frustrations of seeing things that disgust them.
what does that have to do with the soul-destroying power of pritzus in the eyes of a jewish man?”
Unfiltered YouTube is not a place for someone who cares about shmiras einayaim.August 4, 2022 11:18 am at 11:18 am #2112015
@Shmiras Haloshon, ujm obviously has only seen wedding videos on VHS tapes, hence the ignorance.August 4, 2022 11:18 am at 11:18 am #2112058besalelParticipant
You what this sounds like to me? Like Barry Freundel complaining that the women in the mikveh were not being tzanua. Why the aitch are you looking, man? An ehrlich yid knows what he should be avoiding – including all of youtube.
The productions are by women and for women and you are not invited to participate. Stay in your own lane, brother.August 4, 2022 11:18 am at 11:18 am #2112059
“What does that have to do with the soul-destroying power of pritzus in the eyes of a jewish man….”?
When obviously misogynistic trolls are cloaked in an obsessive concern for tzinius and triggers broad hyperbolic generalizations, its a big concern. “Pritzus”, as broadly defined by the
“tzinius police” encompasses both real socially destructive forms of addictive behavior and borderline criminal activities that are incredibly harmful from both a physical and spiritual perspective. However, when otherwise “normal” activities such as hearing a woman’s recorded voice or seeing a short clip of women dancing at a simcha are equated to porn addictions etc., it often becomes an effort to rationalize subordination of women in the name of protecting the neshama of some guys who need to work on their own issues.August 4, 2022 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #2112086👑RebYidd23Participant
It’s a slippery slope. First you want female singers off YouTube. Then you’ll want female singers to stop singing. Then you’ll want all women to stop existing. This is a very logical argument that makes a lot of sense and is definitely not fallacious in any way. You are now responsible for the extinction of all humans.August 4, 2022 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2112085
Gadol – my point is that there’s no comparison between a non-addicted, healthy man’s yatzer hora, which can be triggered by women singing and dancing, and the “ew, gross” reaction women have to men not being tznius. The two are completely different. One is “lo yinakeh midinoh shel gehinnon” if one looks at the small finger of a woman for pleasure, and the other is a nuisance like seeing dead rats on the street.
As for equating all shmiras aynayim/kedushah inyonim to addictions – so what? What does that have to do with my points in this thread? I never once brought up addiction or more extreme behaviors.
Saying “this is “normal” not like X behavior which is criminal (any aveirah is a crime against Hashem)” is reductive. You’re trivializing the nisyonos of ehrlich jews around the world and making it out to be as if it’s only a problem if it goes to a certain extreme that you arbitrarily decided. As i said, etzbah katana is enough to land a jew in gehinnom; that can’t be reduced by the contrast to *bigger” sins.August 4, 2022 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #2112094
I’ve never seen anyone on here, even posters who have an inclination to discuss tznius more than other topics, advocate for “subjugation” of women….unless you mean communal toleration of wanton sinning; if calling out sins and not embracing sinners as our brothers is “subjugation” then so be it.August 4, 2022 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #2112191
Avira, do you have any feedback to the response I made above to your comment? Both examples of erva that we discussed are recordings, not live. So what Halachic basis do you have to differentiate between the two?August 4, 2022 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #2112193
“if calling out sins and not embracing sinners as our brothers is “subjugation” then so be it…”
It seems that thou worries a lot more about “embracing sinners as your brothers” but less so about condemning your sisters for matters that are really your brothers’ concern. And I respectfully disagree that the tone of a material percentage of the tzinius threads is balanced versus implicitly misogynistic. Women should work to understand what you reference as the “nisyonos” of some men in the tzibur but I don’t sense a reciprocal concern with how some of the demands for greater adherence to tzinius guidelines can both degrade and subordinate women.August 4, 2022 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #2112247
ujm – even live, if you are given a choice between having to walk down a street that has women singing, or one where they are dressed inappropriately, the choice is very clear. Not all erva is the same. The same way there’s a difference between a woman in short sleeves and one in a swimsuit, even though both are exposing erva. It’s a davar pashut.
Gadol; how in the world does “greater adherence to tzinius guidelines” have anything to do with degradation or subordination? It’s the opposite; by dressing more tznius, a woman is more dignified and less objectified, and seen as merely a vehicle for lust for men.
When feminists say they want to dress provocatively “for themselves” and champion pritzus as a means of “liberation,” what they’re saying is that “don’t objectify and sexualize us, but….look, we’re going to be super provocative, right in your face, in ways that we know are designed around men’s preferences and desires….objectification is only a problem if it’s forced upon us”August 4, 2022 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #2112266
1. Your last response is giving a different reason that your previous response to me. This is fine, but I just want to point this out.
2. “Not all erva is the same.. It’s a davar pashut.” I feel the same. But I’d like to see this point made in the Halachic literature rather than rely on our gut feelings — possibly incorrectly.
3. Getting back to how this point fits into the original discussion, we were discussing the inappropriateness of women posting YouTube videos of themselves singing. I am asserting that the Halachic reason this is inappropriate is the same as why it is inappropriate for a woman to post a YouTube video giving swimming lessons. (Without getting into which is comparatively “more wrong” than the other; which might be a bit like debating if it is worse to beat an innocent person up than to steal his car.)August 4, 2022 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #2112350
Lets be clear. No one here has been arguing in support of women dressing “provocatively” (or at least I’m not). My concern is that there is a spectrum of tzinius concerns (aka “not all ervah is the same”) and there seems to be a tendency to push the limits where musavr over an inch or so around the elbow or knee has become a more frequent rantAugust 4, 2022 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #2112364
I can’t relate to any of these issues that you discuss in such depth and detail. Would appreciate a couple of links so that I can educate myself.August 5, 2022 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #2112539
I really don’t understand people complaining about whats available on YouTube. If you’re on unfiltered YouTube then you are not a victim to whatever you choose to watch.August 5, 2022 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #2112566
To merge several topics – is it OK for an addicted person to collect money for youtube subscription? or netflix?August 5, 2022 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2112578
If you see your frum neighbor having family lunch in McDonald’s, chowing on cheeseburgers next to the window table as you pass the street and thoroughly enjoying their meal, whereas even though you are not a “victim” of anything you should and must be distributed enough to care about your fellow Jew who is commiting wrongdoing.
Same here, even though we never used YouTube and have no intention of ever look at any YouTube, knowing that your sister is commiting wrongdoing on YouTube should disturb you enough to care about her spiritual wellbeing as well as the spiritual wellbeing of all her victims that do use YouTube and are nichshol over her inappropriate public videos.
In this case it isn’t even worse than the McDonald’s example, as there are many more aveiros, as it affects not just than one person but rather many people.
Kol Yisroel Arevim Zeh Lzeh.
It needs to be stated under your cries of specific other’s aveiros, the involved parties followed the psak of their rav as given.
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