“Frum” female singers on YouTube

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  • #2112597
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ujm – i can’t find anything on the subject, but I’ll look into it

    #2112850
    ytejewboy
    Participant

    It鈥檚 not against the Torah for a woman to sing. It鈥檚 a sin for a man to hear. You can always just not listen.

    #2112881
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Yte – please read the thread. We’ve thoroughly debunked the high school “just don’t look” refrain

    #2112889
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    You didn’t debunk anything, you just stated your opinions. He happens to be right per halacha

    #2112896
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    He’s only right if the women are in a place where they don’t have reason to think men are listening. Women are not allowed to sing wherever they want and tell men not to listen, much as they cannot dress however they want and tell men not to look.

    You graduated from high school several decades ago; time to move on.

    #2112898
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I’m sorry, do halachos change after we leave high school?

    #2112913
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I’m referring to the “if you don’t like it don’t look” refrain that many high school girls pratter away when they’re taught about tznius. It’s false, and when people get older they’re expected to abandon the childish ideas they once had

    #2112918
    馃崼Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Well maybe the girls you hang around with say that but it’s not something I’ve ever heard. And thanks for, once again, putting someone down with a personal insult for disagreeing with you on halacha.

    #2113867
    yehudis21
    Participant

    I love how joe used quotes around the word “Frum” in the title. That was hilarious. The actual argument being made to support their ridiculous stance, however, is just sad. But what can you expect from a grown child, still living in their mother’s basement, who has an unnatural fear of women? I pity him.

    #2114054

    I aalso lways use quotes around “frum” – because most people are using the word to improperly look down at some undefined mass of observant Jews who “ain’t frum”. To appreciate, I never heard someone who excels in chesed, or tzedoka, or middos be called “frum” because of that, it is usually based on more trivial things, like levush or limiting food choices. As in: “a driver stopped to let a pedestrian cross the road, I did not know he is so frum”

    #2115522
    ujm
    Participant

    Avira, were you able yet to look into the thought that 鈥渘ot all erva is the same” and find any written Halachic support for the argument that there’s a Halachic difference between singing erva, swim clothing erva and short sleeves erva?

    #2115618
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ujm, i haven’t had much free time lately.

    #2116385
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Singing erva if not known and seen is permitted according to the Yabia Omer (1,6).

    #2116550
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    You have to be careful; permitted to say brachos, etc, but it’s never permitted to listen to it for enjoyment

    #2120280
    Marxist
    Participant

    I can’t believe nobody mentioned the obvious heter that recorded kol isha is not a problem because it’s not the actual woman’s voice but rather the airwaves that one is listening to. I know that Rav Dovid Feinstein held like that and there are other poskim as well. People are so ready to bash these woman without thinking of any melamed zechus.

    #2120342
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    So now the consensus is that not all ervah is the same and there are variants with different levels of risk to consider (e.g. a woman singing in short sleeves is less assur than one singing in a swimsuit??) Perhaps another common sense rule is to simply follow the guidance of your LRP (which some will caveat that is fine as long as he didn’t get his semicha from Chovevei Torah)

    #2120343
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Marx, we did mention it. That’s regarding saying devorim shebekedushah. Nothing to do with being allowed to listen to it for enjoyment. That’s clearly megareh yatzer hora.

    #2120359
    Marxist
    Participant

    No, you mentioned it in the context of that you don’t know what she looks like, not because it’s not her actual voice.

    “That鈥檚 regarding saying devorim shebekedushah.”

    Not what I heard bshem Rav Dovid Feinstein. It is also well known that there was a certain Egyptian female singer that Rav Ovadia liked to listen to. If your listening to it and it causes hirhurim its obviously assur. But there is a big difference between listening to a song because its enjoyable and it happens to be sung by a woman or listening because you davka want to hear a woman sing and it causes you to have hirhurim.

    #2120372
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    marx; that was a child, re rav ovadia – according to the ones who say it’s even a true story, of which im not convinced

    #2120387
    ujm
    Participant

    Marx, your are incorrect regarding Rav Dovid.

    #2120403
    Marxist
    Participant

    I don’t know what you mean by “story”, it was pretty well known that he did. But besides that, why don’t you show me in the teshuva where he says davka by devorim shebekudasha and not just stam. And he’s not the only posek that has been meikel on this issue. (though most say that if you know what she looks like it’s assur)

    #2120411
    Marxist
    Participant

    @ujm

    Why? Did you hear differently? I heard it from a pretty close relative of his.

    #2120428
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Look at all the teshuvos (including rav ovadia) who discuss kol isha that’s recorded. They NEVER mention it being assur or muttar to listen to, rather the subject matter is invariably regarding its erva status vis a vis davening, etc..

    #2120454
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “If your listening to it [kol isha] and it causes hirhurim its obviously assur…”

    Some of the posts here in the CR send tingles up my spine yet are not flagged as assur by the Mods….

    #2120461

    If I am not mistaking him for someone, R Ovadia used to have erva issues when he & family lived in Mitzraim in one room. His wife would nurse under the table or something, so that not to interrupt his learning.

    #2120462
    Marxist
    Participant

    So you agree that it’s not meforesh. Rav Ovadia ends his teshuva by saying that it’s not considered kol isha not that his heter is only for devorim shebokdusha and we know from his personal life that he did listen stam.

    #2120678

    Are we consistent here? If you forbid Kol Isha on a recording or radio, then would you allow shofar blowing over the same media?

    #2120687
    Marxist
    Participant

    @Always_Ask_Questions

    Some poskim are more strict by ervah and arayos but yes there are poskim that mention the fact that since shofar blowing doesn’t work over a microphone there should be a tzad to say kol isha also does not apply.

    #2120697
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Marx, “we” don’t know about the supposed singer, but i believe she was a child in any case.

    The header of the teshuvos are always about about krias shema etc… I don’t have time at the moment to look at his teshuva in YO, but I’m pretty sure it begins that way too; you can’t be medayak from the fact that he just ends off saying it’s not ervah that it means you can listen to it. It’s not a pasuk in chumash.

    #2120712
    Marxist
    Participant

    She was not a child. For the record, her name was Umm Kulthum and her singing career began when she was an adult and she became one of the most recognized celebrities in Egypt.

    I’m not being really being medayak from that, it’s the lack of any explicit mention in the teshuva that it’s only for krias shema and tefillah. Pashut pshat is like me.

    #2120732
    ujm
    Participant

    Are we consistent here? If you forbid Kol Isha on a recording or radio, then would you allow shofar blowing over the same media?

    Are we consistent here? If you permit Kol Isha on a recording, then would you prohibit recorded images (not actual live viewing) of an undressed isha?

    #2120745
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Had to throw down the gauntlet there.

    #2120743
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    The chofetz chaim and many rabbonim were at a meeting in his house. His little granddaughter was pacing back and forth in the next room, and the chofetz chaim told her to stop – he said “do you think we’re malaachin?”

    This story is in multiple books, including harav hadmomeh lemalaach, ironically.

    Tzadikim are extremely sensitive, and need more shmirah from women than regular people. Either the story about rav ovadia is false, which i think it is, or he thought it was a boy, or he simply wasn’t on the level of gedolei olam – I’m inclined to believe either of the first two.

    #2120758
    Beast of a dude
    Participant

    My old shtell is, that the people who always talk about ladies and busy saying that people are watching ladies etc are the pigs themselves who have taivos, and feel the need to make it as if their such tzadikim and they care about it. Its all GARBAGE you have taivos so go speak with a therapist. Don’t blame Klal Yisroel. Klal Yisroel is doing beautiful and no-one does such things.
    If you answer me with the traditional “Kol Hapoisel” thing, you will just be proving my point.

    #2120815
    Marxist
    Participant

    “Tzadikim are extremely sensitive, and need more shmirah from women than regular people. ”

    Kiddushin 81b:
    专址讘 讗址讞指讗 讘旨址专 讗址讘旨指讗 讗执讬拽旨职诇址注 诇职讘值讬 专址讘 讞执住职讚旨指讗 讞址转职谞值讬讛旨 砖讈址拽职诇值讬讛旨 诇职讘址转 讘旨职专址转旨值讬讛 讗讜止转职讘址讛旨 讘旨职讻址谞职驻值讬讛旨 讗植诪址专 诇值讬讛旨 诇指讗 住指讘址专 诇址讛旨 诪指专 讚旨职诪执拽旨址讚旨职砖讈指讗 讗植诪址专 诇值讬讛旨 注植讘址专职转旨职
    诇指讱职 讗址讚旨职专址讘 讚旨职讗指诪址专 专址讘 讬职讛讜旨讚指讛 讗指诪址专 专址讘 讜职讗执讬转旨值讬诪指讗 专址讘旨执讬 讗侄诇职注指讝指专 讗指住讜旨专 诇职讗指讚指诐 砖讈侄讬旨职拽址讚旨值砖讈 讗侄转 讘旨执转旨讜止 讻旨职砖讈侄讛执讬讗 拽职讟址谞旨指讛 注址讚 砖讈侄转旨址讙职讚旨执讬诇 讜职转止讗诪址专 讘旨执驻职诇讜止谞执讬 讗植谞执讬 专讜止爪侄讛 诪指专 谞指诪值讬 注植讘址专 诇值讬讛旨 讗址讚旨执砖讈职诪讜旨讗值诇 讚旨职讗指诪址专 砖讈职诪讜旨讗值诇 讗值讬谉 诪执砖讈职转旨址诪旨职砖讈执讬诐 讘旨职讗执砖旨讈指讛 讗植诪址专 诇值讬讛旨 讗植谞指讗 讻旨职讗执讬讚旨址讱职 讚旨执砖讈职诪讜旨讗值诇 住职讘执讬专指讗 诇执讬 讚旨职讗指诪址专 砖讈职诪讜旨讗值诇
    讛址讻旨止诇 诇职砖讈值诐 砖讈指诪址讬执诐

    Kesubas 17a
    讝专址讘 讗址讞指讗 诪址专职讻旨值讬讘 诇址讛旨 讗址讻旨址转职驻旨值讬讛旨 讜旨诪职专址拽旨值讚. 讗指诪职专执讬 诇值讬讛旨 专址讘旨指谞址谉: 讗植谞址谉 诪址讛讜旨 诇职诪执讬注职讘旨址讚 讛指讻执讬? 讗植诪址专 诇职讛讜旨: 讗执讬 讚旨指诪职讬指讬谉 注植诇址讬职讬讻讜旨 讻旨执讻职砖讈讜旨专指讗 鈥 诇职讞址讬旨值讬, 讜职讗执讬 诇指讗 鈥 诇指讗

    I also recommend seeing the Yam Shel Shlomo in Kiddushin 4:25 who explains that only a chasid gadol who knows his yetzer and where he is holding can rely on this.

    #2120816
    Marxist
    Participant

    “Either the story about rav ovadia is false, which i think it is, or he thought it was a boy, or he simply wasn鈥檛 on the level of gedolei olam 鈥 I鈥檓 inclined to believe either of the first two.”

    I remember when I was in yeshiva a bachur also had a very difficult time believing this about Rav Ovadia; it was upsetting him and the Rebbeim had to talk to him about it. Honestly, for me, I don’t see what the big deal is for Rav Ovadia to follow his own psak and why that makes him any less of a gadol.

    #2120821
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “Tzadikim are extremely sensitive, and need more shmirah from women than regular people….”

    You miss the point. Tzadikim ARE regular people who are able to live their lives in strict accordance with daas torah. The concept of lamud vov tzadikim (also referenced as the Nistarim is premised on these individuals living their daily lives within their communities without being necessarily being known as big tzadikim. A big element of their “tzadikus” (if you buy into the concept) is that they emerge from their self-imposed concealment to avert threatened disasters and persecution and then return to their anonymity as soon as their task is accomplished concealing’ themselves once again in a Jewish community wherein they are relatively unknown.

    #2120828

    Avira > Either the story about rav ovadia is false, which i think it is, or he thought it was a boy, or he simply wasn鈥檛 on the level of gedolei olam

    Maybe he grew up in a different society than Chofetz Chaim with different attitudes and had different sensitivities? For one, it seems from the other story that R Ovadia did not have “another room” like Chofetz Chaim did… Another story that even in later years, R Ovadia lived in a small apartment and someone visiting him realized that the apartment does not have place of all seforim R Ovadia is quoting, so he apparently was quoting by heart.

    More generally, Sefardim did not go thru haskala period and thus have more coherent communities without separating in bitter sub-groups, each trying to find faults with the other. So, a Sephardi Chacham can allow himself a moderate opinion without being called names. As the story quoted here before said “Hu Rav, Ani Chacham”.

    #2120829

    ujm, there is a big difference between visual images and sounds. Images make a great impression, that is why Torah restricts images, esp 3D. Listening and reading provides information that you can process with your mind and analyze. Very hard to question images. A famous example is of Nazi “documentaries” showing Polish thugs destroying Jewish stores. The message was that Germans came to make order. Of course, the movie omits German soldiers who brought the thugs there in the first place and are now standing with guns behind the camera.

    #2120842
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ, that may be your boich svara, but erva is erva. Unless you provide a source that there’s a difference between voice erva and any other erva, there’s no basis to differentiate between a recorded voice erva with a recorded image erva.

    #2120850

    how about simple physics:
    when you hear a man and a woman, voices mix, and there are some, like yakish, who use it for kulos.
    I am not aware that seeing both men and women inappropriately dressed lead to any kulos

    #2120852
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ, a Halachic source please, to allegedly differentiate between Erva A and Erva B. This is a Halachic issue.

    #2120853
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Marx, we find elsewhere, like by rav amram chasida, abaya and rava who saw the am haaratzim walking together and not sinning(which i say is a very clear prediction of the argument MO makes), and dovid/batsheva…quite the opposite.

    Rav nachman of breslov has a shtikel on this stirah. You raise good points, but they don’t change the way we see gedolei yisroel behave. There are a multitude of stories about gedolim jumping out of windows to avoid yichud, and the like.

    On “kekeshurah”, the rishonim already say that in their time that they’re not on the level to do such things.

    Have you ever seen a gadol pick up a kalah at a chasunah? Have you ever heard of anyone after chazal doing so? I haven’t. If you can find someone relying on kekeshurah at all, please tell us – you won’t find a single rishon or acharon. Not one.

    #2120854
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    This has nothing to do with sefardim/ashkenazim. The baba sali was known to never let himself be exposed to untznius women. He would walk with his eyes covered, guided by talmidim.

    Someone once asked him how he was able to see things in ruach hakodesh. He said, if you guard your eyes like i do, you will automatically see things the way i do.

    #2120855
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Also, just how “coherent” were sefardi communities who came to America totally ignorant of Torah.

    The syrian community in Brooklyn would have gone the way of American ashkenazim if not for the mirrer yeshiva, rav avigdor miller, and many others who reached out to them.

    #2120991

    Sephardim came to US before Ashkenazim did … But I agree that latest Sephardi arrivals benefited a lot of Ashkenazi assistance. As R Kamenetsky said at R Ouerbach’s yeshiva – Moshiach will come from there because they had top classes in Ivrit, enabling Sephardim to attend.

    No doubt, when Sephardim got thrown into modernity, they encountered same problems Ashkenazim did 200 years before that, and Ashkenazi experienced helped them. Ashkenazim lost way more people to Reform and communism. That does not mean that Sephardim need to abandon their own Torah.

    #2121006
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ, the Sephardic, and Jewish in general, presence in the United States was de minimis prior to the mass arrival of German Jewish immigrants in the mid 19th century.

    #2121125
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “There are a multitude of stories about gedolim jumping out of windows to avoid yichud, and the like…

    I’ve never heard such stories of “gedolim” purposely risking self-harm or even death by jumping out of a window to avoid yichud.

    #2121149

    There seems to be a new epidemic in the world – a CFO of a large companies jumped out, several days ago a Russian oil company CEO who said something about the war. The first one was in yichud situation with his wife, the second presumably with some men he did not know.

    #2121168
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    AAQ: I don’t think many consider the CFO of BBB who jumped out of an 18th floor window in NYC erev shabbos OR the Lukoil executive who also jumped out of a hospital window last week Moscow to be gedolim avoiding a yichud situation. The former was likely “avoiding” an insider trading investigation and the latter apparently was not a big fan of Putin’s war in Ukraine.

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