Frum Jews and College

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  • #1073196

    iyhbyu:

    There is no “generally” that you claim is assur.

    I’m sorry, I meant according to the hashkafa that we were taught.

    You might think you know what it’s saying but you might not. and I’d like you to show me where TMB said that.

    If you would scroll up 27 posts above yours, you will find what I was referring to. In addition you can find mod 80. stating Rav Avigdor Miller’s opinion on page 1, as well as a number of other similar stories from like minded gedolim (that I hesitate to add because I can’t verify them) in these 2 pages.

    Are you saying that your wife went to college, but her job doesn’t require the education or that she didn’t actually go to college?

    When we went to Rav Chaim Kanievsky about parnassah when we first got married the only advanced studies option available to her was an all girls-Dati Leumi place which he said she could not attend. Since the charedi institutions are only in Hebrew and my wife isn’t fluent enough this option was ruled out, so no.

    But one more thing-do you pay full tuition?

    I live in E”Y so tuition is negligeble.

    If so you are very lucky and I hope that it continues. But please realize your case is very rare.

    Thank you. It is not as rare as you think. I have a number of friends in the same position as me and I don’t get around much.

    Because if you don’t than you … have no right to question the decision’s of those who do.

    My feeling here is that you are getting unnecessarily defensive over a perceived threat that is non-existent. I am not questioning anyone decisions, I am stating the hashkafa that I was taught.

    Why is in that no one in this DISCUSSION thread, has said “Oh, I saw that Rav Moshe but I understood it as such and such”, or “While I did see that Rav Shach, Rabbi Schachter takes a ‘lighter’ stance on YU”?

    More than half of TMB’s posts on this page have been paraphrased out of sources that he brings. NO ONE HAS REFUTED A SINGLE ONE OF THESE SOURCES, instead you speak as though you are arguing with TMB.

    Why don’t I hear anyone saying “Well if Rav Shach holds that YU is so bad than I’m not giving any money to Ponovicz”, “If Rav Boruch Ber and Rav Chaim Brisker think that Universities are asur because they are full of apikorsus, well ‘that’s just wrong'”.

    showerzinger:

    I suggest that you go through all the posts again because I don’t think anyone disagrees with what you are saying.

    SJSinNYC:

    As I’ve already said I live in E”Y where Yeshivah is significantly cheaper. In addition I’ve been to the Tolne Rebbe to ask whether I should be putting money away for later in life when my expenses will be higher (such as weddings) and he told me that bitachon requires that I do not worry about these things so far in advance.

    #1073197
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJSinNYC:

    As I’ve already said I live in E”Y where Yeshivah is significantly cheaper. In addition I’ve been to the Tolne Rebbe to ask whether I should be putting money away for later in life when my expenses will be higher (such as weddings) and he told me that bitachon requires that I do not worry about these things so far in advance.

    That is standard Charaidi Israeli shitta (which is why in Chul we see so many collectors).

    Reminds me of the SIL joke with the prospective SIL saying G-d will help, and the FIL saying “see, he already calls me G-d” 🙂

    Hatzlacha.

    P.S. In EY College is not needed. That is also part of the system, which is foreign to most of us (and not what we are talking about). That is what you get when you live in a socialist country (Similar to what Dr. Hall suggests). Everyone is taken care of whether you work or not (including paying for private school).

    #1073198
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DH:

    Finally, as I posted before, this is an old time machlokes HaPoskim.

    Both sides have legs to stand on.

    #1073199
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @derechhamelech

    My only argument is that one needs to consult today’s Rabbonim. The commandment to listen to Talmidei Chachomim applies to all generations and one cannot say “well he isn’t as great as the last generation’s gedolim.” So you can bring all the proofs you want, but at the end of the day you need to ask your Rav.

    I actually asked one of my Rabbeim about that R’ Moshe today and he said R’ Moshe had two notable exceptions 1) if you wouldn’t be learning full time anyway ( you just physically and mentally cannot), and 2) if you are unable to make a parnassah. He said there were definite exceptions to those exceptions, such as if you will be forced to taking philosophy-type classes which spew apikorsus or if you will be involved with girls etc. Really each case needs to be taken separately.

    Anyways I sincerely wish you much hatzlacha and hope you will be able to learn ad meah v’esrim without any distractions. Tizku lmitzvos.

    #1073200

    Reminds me of the SIL joke with the prospective SIL saying G-d will help, and the FIL saying “see, he already calls me G-d” 🙂

    My father loves that joke. I think its the most disgusting joke a jew ever made. All it does is numb the hearts of parents through leitzanos and causes a person to forget that there is a Mashgiach in this world.

    Where does the idea that a person’s parnassah is nigzar from the begining of the year fit into that joke? Where does that joke extol the mitzvah of supporting Torah?

    Instead it teaches a person that it is through kochi v’etzem yadi that I get my parnassah and then I should have to give MY hard earned money to X who would rather sit around all day reading books.

    Did Zevulun tell this joke to Yissachar?

    Finally, as I posted before, this is an old time machlokes HaPoskim.

    I’m not sure I catch your point or its relevance.

    My only argument is that one needs to consult today’s Rabbonim. The commandment to listen to Talmidei Chachomim applies to all generations and one cannot say “well he isn’t as great as the last generation’s gedolim.”

    And what I said just added a parameter to what you said, which was that you need to consult YOUR OWN gedolim and not apply what, for instance, Rav Kook or Rabbi Lichtenstein says to people who do not hold of them as gedolim (ie. leaders).

    So you can bring all the proofs you want, but at the end of the day you need to ask your Rav…Really each case needs to be taken separately.

    This is a point I believe I reiterated a few times.

    I wish everybody parnassah tova v’chol tzarcheinu so that we can all be yagiah yomum v’lailah and be marbim Shalo-m ba’olam.

    #1073201
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    DH,

    Sorry, I forgot you were in Israel. I agree, in Israel post-secondary education may not be needed. [Although, if no one in Israel did post-secondary education, the country would have no doctors, lawyers, etc etc….but that’s a different argument).

    In the US, it is basically mandatory in order to support your family. I’ve posted basic stats in the past.

    And I agree that its more important to talk to your Rav today than look at the piskei halacha of past generations. Times have changes and its important to get a psak from your current Rav.

    Rav Moshe’s psak (who incidentally was my father’s Rav and allowed him to go to college) was at a time where college was not nearly as important. Your current Rav would be better to discuss the applicability of the psak to your life.

    #1073202
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DH:

    LOL. That paraphrases what the SIL would say. You just have a “New School” (as opposed to the “old school”) Charaidi EY Hashkafa. Kol HaKavod.

    Second point was that I don’t care for either side’s arguements. This has been discussed by those much greater than us, and decided both ways.

    #1073203

    gavra_at_work your last point is key; “This has been discussed by those much greater than us, and decided both ways.”

    As for me the shul I daven at the Rabbi has several university degrees, so I imagine he is fine with university as I know his children attended them while learning at yeshiva as well…

    #1073204
    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    Going to college today is much different than it used to be many years ago. You can go to a commuter school to earn a degrees to become a doctor, nurse, lawyer, financial analyst, accountant, PT, ST, etc…

    How would the information learned in these courses differ than reading an article in the newspaper, or learning stuff on the job somewhere? Some of these arguments are ridiculous.

    Should we all (except for these very few who thrive creating their own businesses) work at minimum-wage jobs and hope we can withstand as a community? We need more money to be kept in the community for tzedakah and our mosdos. I cannot understand the big deal with going to college to get a nice job. Nobody said to major in philosophy, theology, humanities, etc…

    #1073205
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” Nobody said to major in philosophy, theology, humanities,”

    A lot of great rabbis have earned degrees in those fields.

    #1073206
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    A lot of great rabbis have earned degrees in those fields.

    Harbei asu ken v’lo alsah b’yadam.

    #1073207
    owl
    Member

    Most of college has little to do with earning a living. Musical theater anyone?

    The stats saying college grads earn more are averages not medians. They combine the CEO of Oracle and the homeless guy. The median figure is only a few thousand a year more and can be attributed to work ethic and intelligence.

    #1073208
    Excellence
    Participant

    There’s no reason you can’t go to uni and have a professional education. It’s all well and good to say live in a little… but not when the weekly rent is huge. And you need to live close to your shule, which is in the nicer suburbs, and costs more, right?

    The important thing is to maintain shmiras halashon and even more importantly, shmiras eynaim, because the women will be underdressed there. But then… should you live as a hermit?

    Didn’t the Rebbe attend engineering in berlin uni during the ’30?

    Not every Jew has to be a fiddler or taylor. The expenses of basic necessities requires a good income. This, unfortunately, is the times we live in. In previous generations, we were all poor. I think on a good day, R. Aurebach had a whole boiled egg to share with his three brothers.

    #1073209
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’ll sign uo to have my kids turn out like R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt”l any day.

    #1073210
    OURtorah
    Participant

    Here’s what I don’t understand- why is the BY/ charedi system building young men and women who are not equipt to withstand going out into the secular world. Unless you are going to be a rebbe, teacher or secretary, you will likely come upon goyim (OMG ***shock***) in your lifetime. In the hospital, in the grocery store on an airplane. Yes I agree- university isn’t for everyone, but why is the system built so that university is so demonized. If you are a strong person in your hashkafa, you go to university letachlis of getting the education needed to make a normal parnassa which is sustainable for this day and age, why is it so looked down upon. Wouldn’t you rather be producing strong children who can tackle the world no matter if they r more inside the bubble or less?

    I go to secular university with tons of other frum frum girls. I always say how university has solidified me to be even frummer than when I can in. Why? Because the contrast is so drastic, and BH being very firm and strong in my Torah beliefs, seeing the shtus that goes on around me just makes shabbos that much more meaningful. And it makes the shiurim I go to that much more important.

    #1073211
    writersoul
    Participant

    Just something interesting from R Aharon Lichtenstein’s levaya (that I’m sure most of you won’t agree with but that I think is still more than worth saying).

    For context, R Aharon was not only a gadol baTorah, but rather also a PhD in English literature from Harvard.

    The last maspid said that many people spoke of R Aharon as someone who was mattir. He was mattir reading secular books, he was mattir secular studies, etc. But no, this was not the case- he wasn’t mattir anything. As someone who spent his entire life in pursuit of excellence in avodat HaShem, he regarded everything we do as something in pursuit of that goal. If you believe in using the whole world (laHashem haaretz umelo’ah) in order to work on your avodat HaShem , then it’s more than just “something the Rav was mattir” but rather a chova. If it is not lesheim Shamayim and entirely for the sake of growing in avodat HaShem, by that token it would be assur.

    I know that most of the population of the CR will probably disagree with most of the premise here, but I’m mentioning it here because it’s a fascinating perspective to have even for those with a more charedi, kulo Torah perspective. A lot of what this thread is arguing about is college as a bedieved and as a necessary evil, or about work as though it is not optimal. Even so, though, we can’t just divide these aspects of life into ikkar and tafel. We can’t just blow off the rest of life as though it’s valueless. Everything we do needs to be viewed through a lens of “is this helping me in my avodat HaShem? Is this giving me a new understanding of HaShem’s world and wisdom?” Even if it’s not the first choice way to spend your time, we need to be aware of the ways in which we need to bring HaShem into every aspect of our lives, even college.

    #1073212
    Joseph
    Participant

    avodat HaShem

    Moving to Israel turned you into a Sefardi? It isn’t proper for one to change their havara.

    #1073213
    OURtorah
    Participant

    writersoul- so beautifully written! Exactly, if we can find the leshaim shomayim in all we do that is the ideal!

    #1073214
    writersoul
    Participant

    Joe: I laugh, because at the levaya I felt very self conscious as the only person reciting the tehillim with Havara Ashkenazis…

    Now that I speak Hebrew more, I’ve gotten into the habit of saying Hebrew phrases that way. Half my friends are trying to switch over for everything but I won’t bother trying til someone actually proves to me that it’s more correct than Ashkenazis.

    I’m working on mil-el vs mil-ra, though.

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