Frum Jews and College

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Frum Jews and College

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 169 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1073143

    “Yes, but I don’t know what that has to do with this thread.”

    for some it will dismiss anything you have to say here, but not for me

    #1073144
    agittayid
    Participant

    “Yes, but I don’t know what that has to do with this thread.”

    Why bother presenting a good argument when you can discredit the poster. Happens here quite a bit.

    #1073145

    By listing all the talmedei chachamim that have gone to college, even if they went to college before “acheiving gadol status” doesn’t that show that people can go to college and still turn out Kosher and ehrlich and even a gadol?

    Yes, college is not for everyone- the person must be steadfast in his or her beliefs and constantly question what he is being taught and realize “is this ok? is this not ok?” Yes, by the time a frum yeshiva student has gone through 13+ years in the yeshiva system we hope that they have steady grounding in Torahdika hashkafos.

    If they aren’t….

    What happens if they are on the subway and someone asks them ‘why do all you Jews wear funny clothes/eat weird foods/talk differently?’ Or starts talking religion?

    Maybe the problem lies with our educational system- does it prepare the yid for bumping into a secular yid or a goy??

    #1073147
    Health
    Participant

    TMB or WIY (whoever you are) -What would R’ Schach or R’ Elya say about someone who is always on the net? Would you think they would hold such a person is better or worse than a college guy?

    #1073148
    oomis
    Participant

    charliehall: Haven’t you previously stated you are a congregant of Rabbi Avi Weiss’ synagogue?”

    And therefore…?

    #1073149

    charliehall:

    You keep bringing how Rambam and Sforno went to university. How about Rashi, Ramban, Ran, Rosh, Ba’al HaTurim, Rashba, Ritva, Mordechai, Rif, Beis Yosef, Rama, Ri Migesh, Rabeinu Tam, Ri, Rabeinu Bechaye, Rabeinu Bachye, Ibn Ezra, Rabeinu Gershom, Meiri, Shita Mekubetzes, Rekanti and the Rokeach to name a few? Did all those Rishonim go to university too?

    To the contrary, you will understand and appreciate Chazal’s science more if you know something about Greek science.

    I think here is where many of us will diverge in opinions. We do not believe that it Chazal’s ‘science’ requires us to understand greek anything. I’m pretty sure that is part of the point of Chanuka. Also I’ve never heard of Rabbi Lichtenstein or Rabbi Tendler.

    However, it should also be pointed out that the YU/Touro/Bar Ilan models have clearly produced gedolim. For example, Rav Schachter and Rav Lichtenstein have undergraduate degrees from YU.

    This is called the accident fallacy:

    Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Schachter attended YU

    Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Schachter are gedolim

    The YU model clearly produces gedolim.

    You have a tendency to overgeneralize. Two people that came out of YU you consider gedolim and that means that the YU model works? How many people come out of YU? How many of them are talmidei chachamim?

    How many people come out of Lakewood? How many of them are talmidei chachamim?

    I don’t think everyone who comes out of YU is not a talmid chacham. i don’t think everyone who comes our of Lakewood is a talmid chacham. But which model do you honestly think produces more talmidei chachamim?

    That being said, I think its important to distinguish between a gadol and a talmid chacham. Very few people in this world would not call Rav Elyashiv a gadol. The same cannot be said for many of the Rabbis you have mentioned who have attended university.

    #1073150
    oomis
    Participant

    Derech Hamelech, you miss the point that the Talmidei Chachomim who came out of YU, are also secularly well-educated. they have achieved the best of both worlds, something the Lakewood Lamdanim have not, because they do not believe in getting that education. I am not criticizing them for that, but neither should you or anyone else criticize YU Rabbonim, or diminish their learning. Lakewood is not the only Makom Torah in this country. My own Rov is the product of YU, and I will stack him up against any product of the Lakewood Yeshivah. He IS a Gadol, has written several seforim and chiddushei Torah,is erudite, learned, intellectual, artistic, and a real mensch.

    #1073151
    ZachKessin
    Member

    It should be pointed out that a very small percent of people who come out of any yeshiva (Lakewood, YU etc) will ever be “Gadolim”. If we say that every student at a given yeshiva will become a gadol the term has been watered down to the point that it is meaningless.

    #1073152
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Popa’s contribution:

    We can measure basic scholarship by time and effort spent, accounting for intellect. (We will proceed to forget about intellect since we are discussing large numbers of people.)

    So, if I learned 10 years full time, don’t tell me that someone else who learned 6 years part time plus 2 years full time knows the same amount as me.

    That is it. I readily assume that the rabbinical graduates of a Yeshiva like Chofetz Chaim who on average have learned approximately 14 years full time know more torah than a graduate of YU who on average has learned ______, which is less. (I don’t know exactly what the average is, but it is far less than 14.)

    #1073153

    charliehall: Haven’t you previously stated you are a congregant of Rabbi Avi Weiss’ synagogue?”

    I prefer intellectual-style debates without name calling or pointing out something about the poster, rather than his arguments. Not to say anything about any posters here, or any people mentioned here, but didn’t R’ Meir learn from Acher? Should we now take a penknife and cut out anything R’ Meir said?

    #1073154

    hss: You are funny. In one paragraph you compared Avi Weiss to Acher, right after saying that pointing out that being a Weiss congregant is name calling.

    Anyways, charlie is a proud congregant there, and spreads those hashkofos here. That is a point worth “pointing out”.

    #1073155

    oomis:

    You are calling having both a Torah and secular education ‘the best of both worlds’. That is in-line with your hashkafa of ‘Torah u’Mada’. For us though there is only one world and that is Torah. You cannot compare someone who stays in the Beis Medrish from 7:30 am to 10:30 pm (except for meals etc) to someone who stays in the Beis Medrish from 7:30 am to 7:30 pm and then goes to university for 3 hours. It might be necessary for some people- but it is being done at the expense of the Torah.

    I have been careful to distinguish between a talmid chachom and a gadol. A talmid chochom is someone who is erudite in Torah. I am sure many talmidei chachomim have come out of YU. But how many Rav Elyashiv’s and Rav Chaim’s came out? To you who believe that Torah u’Mada is the ideal for a Jew then yes, Rabbi Schachter is definitely the pinnacle of all Jews. But to those of us who believe that Torah u’Torah is the ideal, gadlus will not be found be found in someone who is described as artistic.

    I am not coming to criticize YU or any other learning establishment. My point this whole time was for those who offer their own ‘pinnacle yid’ as a proof to to others that do not abide by the same hashkafos as those talmidei chachomim, they are making a mistake.

    This line of reasoning was employed here a number of times. That was all I was trying to refute. Bringing a proof from what your Rabbis do is illogical because they are following different hashkafos.

    #1073156

    havesomeseichel:

    I don’t know who Rabbi Avi Weiss is but with regards to R’ Meir- perhaps the distinction lies in the fact that R’ Meir probably came equipped with his own penknife (read: da’as Torah)and was able to trim the fat before serving it to us.

    #1073157

    Birkas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27 p.42):

    “What emerges is (a) that according to the Torah the obligation of Banim Ubeni Banim means you must make your children into Geonei and Chachmei Torah – and not merely to prepare them for life as a Jew. But rather, you must teach them and get them to learn the entire Torah, and if chas v’sholom you do not, you violate the entire Mitzvah of learning Torah as per Banim Ubnei Banim.

    (b) Universities and gymnasiums (i.e. secondary schools) are prohibited because of Apikursus [that they teach]. My Rebbi (i.e. Rav Chaim Soloveichik ZT’L) prohibited them even in war time, and even to save a life, for to avoid violating this, even a Jewish life is to be spent.

    (c) To learn secular studies on a regular basis is prohibited, as per the Rama 246:4 …

    Brothers, please do Teshuva while there is still time, for the enlightenment (Haskalah) has blinded our eyes and weakened us. For we have no benefit in this world at all – both spiritually and physically – except from Torah. All the strength of Klall Yisroel is from the Torah … we should do Tehsuva and repair the Batei Medrashos that have been broken by the Enlightenment.”

    ___________________________________________

    Kovetz Shiurim II:47

    Question:

    Under what circumstances is it permitted to learn secular studies?

    Answer:

    (a) If you must learn books that contain apikursus, it is prohibited … needless to say even to make money or to prevent a loss thereof.

    (b) If you must sit in school with Goyim, and it causes someone to befriend the Goyim and their ways, it is prohibited as per the Lo Saseh of Hishomer Lecha etc. for the Torah commanded us to distance ourselves from the Goyim in every way…

    (c) If the studies do not cause you to learn Apikursus or to befriend Goyim, and you learn secular studies in order to know a skill to make a living, it is permitted, and it is a Mitzvah. However, this is only in general. But if a person sees that his son wants to learn Torah and he is prepared to be a Gadol B’Torah, in such a case R. Nehuray said: “I will forgo all skills in the world and teach my son only Torah.”…

    (d) If you don’t need the studies for Parnasa, and you just want to be involved in them, there is reason to prohibit because of Bitul Torah, as per the Rama in YD 246, who writes that it is forbidden to learn secular studies on a regular basis… perhaps it is not due to Bitul Torah but rather it is an affront to the honor of the Torah… someone who set out to learn secular subjects indicates that he believes that they have a purpose in and of themselves [besides for parnasa], and that is against the Torah’s opinion. [see above]…”

    #1073158
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Did all those Rishonim go to university too?”

    Totally irrelevant. I’ve *never* said everyone should attend university. You’ve tried to prove university is asur. I’ve disproved that.

    If anyone wants to have a discussion about who should attend university, and when, I’m perfectly willing to engage in such a conversation. But I won’t have it with someone who doesn’t accept that it is mutar to do so — there is no point. I’d prefer those folks explain how we are supposed to have physicians, attorneys, and engineers within our communities if secular education is asur. Neither Chazal nor Rambam would have imagined such.

    “We do not believe that it Chazal’s ‘science’ requires us to understand greek anything.”

    If you understand Chazal’s science you understand Greek science.

    Are you familiar with the discussion in Shabat 61 about the efficacy of an amulet? Why did Chazal reject a biblical methodology found in the first chapter of Daniel?

    ” I’m pretty sure that is part of the point of Chanuka.”

    If you actually understand what was going on in Shabat 61, you will understand that is not the case.

    “This is called the accident fallacy:

    Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Schachter attended YU

    Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Schachter are gedolim

    The YU model clearly produces gedolim.”

    Actually it isn’t a fallacy, it is a proof.

    And there are some younger rabbis at YU who will likely be considered gedolim in about 20 years.

    “I’ve never heard of Rabbi Lichtenstein or Rabbi Tendler.”

    I’m sorry you haven’t heard of two of the greatest living rabbis in the world. Their writings and shiurim are easily accessible and I recommend them both.

    ‘Anyways, charlie is a proud congregant there, and spreads those hashkofos here. That is a point worth “pointing out”. ‘

    I’m a member of his synagogue and don’t hide it but I have a different rabbi for shilahs. And as I’ve said, all that is irrelevant to this discussion. I know I’ve won the argument when people start directing *ad hominem* attacks towards me.

    “But how many Rav Elyashiv’s and Rav Chaim’s came out? “

    YU didn’t exist when Rav Chaim or Rav Elyashiv were the age they would have considered attending YU. But in any case Rav Lichtenstein may well be comparable to Rav Elyashiv despite being decades younger.

    #1073159
    charliehall
    Participant

    “It might be necessary for some people- but it is being done at the expense of the Torah.”

    The best counter example to this is Rav Lichtenstein. Give him a try — you will need to familiarize yourself with the non-Torah sources he uses to make brilliant Torah points, but the reward will be commensurate with the effort.

    #1073161

    Again I urge people to go and listen to Rabbi Lawrence Keleman on torahanytime.org In his story about the near death of his son a group of Chasids who learnt with Rabbi Feur in yeshiva were instrumental in saving the life of his child…The reason I bring this up is because is Rabbi Feur insisted that all who learn with him must have an advanced university degree in engineering. Rabbi is a big BIG Rav…I advise people to research him before commenting further

    #1073162

    Looks like my 20 page post didn’t make it past the editing room.

    In any case, the point is that you can’t use a minority example to make a rule, because they may be the exception to opposing rule.

    This applies to virtually every example that you’ve brought so far. Two Rishonim opposite the many I brought.

    Two Rabbis from YU opposite the tens from Mir, Lakewood, etc.

    Two German Rabbonim trying to stem the tide of assimilation opposite most of the rest of the European Rabbonim.

    One Rav Feur opposite hundreds of kollelim in E”Y that don’t do like him.

    #1073163

    I would hope the Yeshivas in Lakewood are producing strong enough Jews that won’t be tempted to go off the derech by taking a finance class at college…I should hope they would have enough strengh than that….And if they don’t well, we have a bigger problem on our hands then college.

    #1073164
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” Two Rishonim opposite the many I brought.”

    Not opposite. None of your rishonim asured university — nor any acharon prior to the 19th century.

    “Two Rabbis from YU “

    I could list hundreds more if you want.

    “Two German Rabbonim trying to stem the tide of assimilation opposite most of the rest of the European Rabbonim.”

    Rabbis in Western Europe and Italy were also attending university. And some of the rabbis I mentioned were actually from Eastern Europe like Rav Herzog, Rav Soloveitchik, and the Lubavicher Rebbe.

    Why do you keep pushing this? Frum Jews have been attending university since the time of the rishonim and will continue to do so, and some of them became gedolim. You aren’t going to convince anyone who isn’t already convinced.

    And you still haven’t even begun to explain how the community will survive if there are no Jewish physicians or engineers.

    #1073165
    iyhbyu
    Member

    This whole argument about what produces Gedolim is kind of ridiculous. Yes, the places which learn all day will likely produce more gedolim because the ones who go to Yeshiva-college are going to work! Does that mean work is assur?

    That is the real logical fallacy.

    @tryingmybest-

    I don’t know if you are trying to ignore me or more likely you don’t have any good way of answering my post, but once again, I am very curious to know if you support a family, and if you don’t; did the person who supports you go to college?

    You can quote all the seforim you want, but you need today’s Rabbonim to lead you and help you interpret halacha. Each person should ask his posek if they should go to college if they get the urge, and listen to him.

    As a side note- if you did not hear of R’ Lichtenstien, it is purely because of ignorance. I and many others may not follow his halacha, but much like R’ Kook in his time, he definitely is a gadol.

    #1073166
    aries2756
    Participant

    For all those who have an aversion to the “apikorsim” who go to college, please stop banging on our doors, ringing our bells, calling our homes and sending us letters for money. After all YOU don’t hold from JEWS going to college! YOU consider us apikorsim! YOU look down on us and therefor have no right to demand, ask or expect anything from us at all.

    Furthermore, for those who claim that college is assur especially for girls, how are they supposed to make a parnasah for all their wonderful hubby’s who are sitting and learning and not paying the bills. Just how many “morahs” does a community need? Should a young vabel be a cashier? How many cashiers do kosher groceries need? Should she work in an office? Well how kosher would an office environment be if a college environment is assur? Where exactly should a young wife work and how should she make the money necessary to support her family.

    Every Askan I know who’s bell is always pressed and who’s home is always filled with requests for tzedaka have gone to college and worked hard to achieve what he has. And yes they are still talmidei chachamim because they made time in their busy schedules to learn. One of which is a family member of mine whom Rav Pam z”tl handpicked to run a special organization to fulfill his dream. He couldn’t have picked a finer person, a better Ben Torah, a bigger Talmud Chacham or a more generous askan in both $ and actions. And no he wouldn’t be where he is today had he not gone to college.

    #1073167

    I am not trying to assur university. Maybe you are mixing up my posts with other people’s posts. I think the most I’ve done was refer to Rav Chaim and Rav Elchonon that were brought above by TMB.

    None of your rishonim asured university — nor any acharon prior to the 19th century.

    Allow me to quote tmb again:

    (c) To learn secular studies on a regular basis is prohibited, as per the Rama 246:4

    I could list hundreds more if you want.

    You seemed to accorded these two ‘gadol’ status. And I made my comparison from there. Unless you call every rabbi a gadol…

    Rabbis in Western Europe and Italy were also attending university. And some of the rabbis I mentioned were actually from Eastern Europe like Rav Herzog, Rav Soloveitchik, and the Lubavicher Rebbe.

    I cannot comment on Western European Rabbis as I do not know if I am familiar with any. I think it is significant that all three rabbis you bring from Eastern Europe are controversial figures in the eyes of a significant portion of the charedi public.

    My point has been the same this entire time. There were a number of posts attempting to ‘prove’ that university education is or should be ideal even to the charedi public as there were a number of Rabbis that attended university. I have only been trying to say that many of these Rabbis are controversial figures to many charedim and shouldn’t be used as a proof. Of the remaining, these may be individual cases where university was the best possible solution.

    In addition, if you are worried that if everyone sits and learns all day that we will not be able to survive as a society allow me to point you in the direction of Sanhedrin 94B to what Chizkiyahu did and what is said about his generation. If everyone was sitting in the Beis HaMedrish on pain of death- who was taking care of the sick? And if you say that everyone was a talmid chacham but they were also doctors. I would answer that – how did they get past the sword by the door of the beis medrish on their way out to university?

    You are right. As long as we are still attending university, we will still need doctors and engineers, but once we all put ourselves back in the beis medrish, we won’t need them anymore. This is the famous vort on vayikra 26:23-24 “v’halachtem imi keri, v’halachti af ani imachem b’keri”.

    #1073168

    (c) To learn secular studies on a regular basis is prohibited, as per the Rama 246:4

    DH: Just a note. That citation of the Rama is from a quote of the Birkas Shmuel (Rav Boruch Ber Leibowitz zt”l).

    #1073169
    charliehall
    Participant

    “I cannot comment on Western European Rabbis as I do not know if I am familiar with any. “

    Why do you flaunt your ignorance? You think that the entire frum world is charedim from Eastern Europe. Well, it isn’t. There aren’t any significant Jewish communities in Eastern Europe any more.

    “I think it is significant that all three rabbis you bring from Eastern Europe are controversial figures in the eyes of a significant portion of the charedi public.”

    Not my problem.

    BTW the Rema himself was very learned in secular wisdom although he didn’t himself attend university. And during his lifetime, Jews did attend university (mostly in Italy) and he did not object.

    ” if you did not hear of R’ Lichtenstien, it is purely because of ignorance. I and many others may not follow his halacha, but much like R’ Kook in his time, he definitely is a gadol. “

    R’Lichtenstein is in many ways much more traditional than Rav Kook, particularly in his approach to Zionism.

    #1073170

    The next time someone rings my bell asking for tzedakah I’m going to ask more questions then ever. I’ll ask them their views on going to college. If they equate it with Apikorism I wont give them one penny. If they dont have a job, I’ll ask why. If it’s because they learn all day then I will tell them that they should go learn a trade or get a degree, get a job and earn their own money. That advise will be my Tzedakah…and if they think it’s an assur to have a dog, well forget about it. they wont get anything from me.

    #1073171

    Mike – I doubt you previously ever gave much more than a quarter. And I wouldn’t believe it even if you claimed otherwise.

    #1073172

    a person needs zchus for the Rabbano Shel Olam to allow him to support Torah learning

    #1073173

    Trying my best, this comment will haunt you during your trial in olam haba. I suggest you appologize while I’m willing to accept it. Otherwise, I will consider this Loshn Horah against me and you know how big an avera that is….

    #1073174

    You need to apologize to the Baalei Tzedaka that you denigrated, despite them giving you the opportunity to fulfil the mitzvah of tzedaka, you spit on them and said you would stab the poor in the back because they follow Rav Moshe, Rav Ahron, Rav Elchonon, Rav Boruch Ber, and the Rema.

    #1073175
    oomis
    Participant

    Mike – I doubt you previously ever gave much more than a quarter. And I wouldn’t believe it even if you claimed otherwise. “

    UNBELIEVABLE! That statement sounded judgmental, arrogant, insulting, and really unworthy of a frum yid. Were you trying to make a joke, perhaps, that went flat very quickly?

    #1073176
    iyhbyu
    Member

    I definitely don’t agree with anyone who thinks everyone HAS to go to college. I strongly approve of kollel and the majority of those in it are great people and are doing it lshem shamayim. However, it’s frankly just insulting and demeaning when I go to college under the tutelage of daas torah, and someone comes along and says that it is assur. Especially if they are supported by someone who went to college.

    You really ruin the reputation of those sincere people in kollel and you do untold damage to limud torah.

    Imagine how many people saw these posts or heard people talking and will think twice chas v’shalom about giving to learning if they mistakenly think that most kollel members think that what they are doing is assur Not just Mikehall, but others who aren’t 100% behind the kollel system. At best they think they are Kafui Tov at worst they think kollel members are a bunch of hypocrites.

    Hashem Yeracheim

    @tryingmybest

    I am so impressed with you. You seem to really fulfill vahavta lreacha kamocha to the fullest. and probably no one can be dan lkaf zchus like you. You really are the paradigm of what a Yid should be. You can definitely dish out mussar. Your one possible weakness may be that you can’t respond to it.

    @charliehall-

    I agree with you that he is more moderate, I was just trying to come up with the best comparison I could think of who basically all agree is a gadol, but don’t necessarily agree with him.

    #1073177

    for the record there is nothing wrong with the kollel system just like there isn’t anything wrong about college. Not all people are cut out to learn all day and not all people are cut out for college. but to call college an assur is just wrong. As for TMB, it is your judgemental hollier than thou attitude that shows your true colors. If it’s not your way it wrong and that is VERY VERY wrong. You are in no position to judge others. Remember Hashem will judge you like you judge others and be compasionate with you as you are to others.

    #1073178

    TMB for the record I do support students who learn all day, but becasue of your comments I will double think the Yeshivas that I know give to and will direct my hard earned money to those Yeshivas that are more in line with my thinking

    #1073179

    Regarding High School, the only reasons it is allowed is either because education is mandated by State Law (in New York it is until age 17), or simply because if they did not have High School education in the Yeshivas, parents would simply send their kids to worse places to get it.

    But it is definitely looked upon not as a l’chatchilah, but rather as something that is annoyingly necessary in the current environment.

    Today, there are a small number of High Schools in America – particularly in Lakewood – that do not teach English. Also, many Yeshivos do try to reduce the amount of secular studies as much as possible, through knocking out the last semester of English, and a number of kids are leaving HS early to enter Bais Medrash.

    Rav Chaim Segal ZT’L, the Menahel of the High School at Yeshiva Chaim Berlin was once told by Rav Shach ZT’L that if possible, he should not be teaching English studies. In Eretz Yisroel, almost all Chareidi Yeshivos do not have English at that age. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT’L made some kind of commitment not to allow English studies on the HS level in Lakewood. The exact details, and if this was actually a Takanah or merely a preference, is not clear and depends who you ask. In any case, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a student of Rav Aharon’s, was asked why he allows English in Philly if Rav Aharon was against it. What difference can there be between the town of Lakewood NJ and Philadelphia PA? Reb Elya answered that he has no choice, and that currently, the Baalei Batim would not send their kids to the Yeshiva except under these circumstances.

    Is any of this the ideal? No. It is not. Is it justified? The schools say it is, as they have no choice. But the point is not what the Jews do, its what Judaism wants. Everyone agrees that it would be a higher level, a preferable situation if we would indeed not learn English even at the HS level, at least not beyond what is necessary to survive. Nobody claims it is an ideal.

    #1073180
    Homeowner
    Member

    aries2756, mikehall12382:

    Bravo!

    #1073181
    iyhbyu
    Member

    TMB

    Still to afraid to answer me, it seems like you are maybe starting to backtrack? Are you saying that college isn’t ideal, but necessary for some people? If that is your opinion, than I wholeheartedly agree. But that would actually make sense so probably not.

    You have no answers for my logic.

    Stop being afraid to answer back.

    #1073182

    tmb and Derech HM- What I was saying was an “argumentum A fortiori ” (Kal Vi’chomer to some of you out there). If someone could learn from Acher, then who are we to say who is kosher enough to learn from? How do we know who here is a R’ Meir?

    #1073183

    Why do you flaunt your ignorance?

    not my problem

    These are wonderful refutations and explanations on your stance.

    And during his lifetime, Jews did attend university (mostly in Italy) and he did not object.

    You will call this flaunting my ignorance, but can you point me to where he that he states that he had no objection?

    R’Lichtenstein is in many ways much more traditional than Rav Kook, particularly in his approach to Zionism.

    Since I don’t know Rabbi Lichtenstein I will assume that he is as controversial a figure as R’ Kook is.

    However, it’s frankly just insulting and demeaning when I go to college under the tutelage of daas torah, and someone comes along and says that it is assur.

    I think TMB brought a source that said on an individual basis it may even be a mitzvah, so I’m not sure why you are taking anything he said as a personal attack on you.

    For the record:

    I go to kollel, my wife works, in a job that does not require a college education our parents aren’t supporting us and I have children.

    #1073184

    mikehall:

    Considering you are the one that started this DISCUSSION thread in which it seems you were attempting to prove that university is an important element of Jewish live (R’ Keleman’s son wouldn’t have been able to survive without it), you are getting awfully spiteful and vicious of other people’s views.

    TMB’s opinion is a direct reflection of the sources that he has provided to you. I wonder how much of your attacks you are reflecting onto TMB when you really mean to be upset at Rav Baruch Ber and Rav Elchonon and everyone else he mentioned. Are you upset that he follows the opinion of gedolei hador?

    In addition as Mod-80 has pointed out, you need a zchus to be allowed to support Torah learning. Hashem doesn’t need your money to go to Torah- you do. Hashem can get money from other people, you are only losing out on the zchusim yourself.

    All myself and I think TMB has said so far is that: yes, university is assur in general. There is a good reason for this too, even among the Jewish institutions. But it is not our views that are being argued it is the views of our gedolim, the previous generations gedolim…

    Why do you call TMB “hollier than thou” and not Rav Chaim Soloveitchik? Why do you say that “If it is not your way it is wrong-and that is very very wrong”? Do you not believe the same thing about conservative and reform? What differentiates all of us in that respect if we are all just following our rabbis’ interpretation of the Torah?

    There is only one thing- our mesorah. And so throughout history whenever someone has departed from the mesorah that we have they become controversial at best. This is the way we have preserved our mesorah. This is the way it is now, this is the way it was in Europe, I daresay this is the way it was during the second Beis HaMikdash.

    You can argue that your mesorah is the correct mesorah. That is fine. But that doesn’t patir us from trying to protect what we believe is the mesorah. That applies to university, that applies to zionism, that applies to chalav stam, that applies to the gedarim of tznius that we have taken on ourselves, and all the other things that we may disagree on. If these things bother you, then you shouldn’t have created this thread. Otherwise, it is not right of you to get so vicious when someone offers a stance that is counter to your own especially when he brings good sources to account for his views.

    #1073185
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @derechhamelech

    There is no “generally” that you claim is assur. Each person should consult his own Rav whether or not they should go. Do you have a problem with that? You can’t pasken out of a sefer unless you are a…posek. You might think you know what it’s saying but you might not. and I’d like you to show me where TMB said that.

    Are you saying that your wife went to college, but her job doesn’t require the education or that she didn’t actually go to college?

    If so you are very lucky and I hope that it continues. But please realize your case is very rare. But one more thing-do you pay full tuition? Because if you don’t than you are being indirectly supported by people with a college education, and have no right to question the decision’s of those who do.

    #1073187
    aries2756
    Participant

    iyhbyu, good point

    Another good point to make, is to apologize when asked to.

    #1073188

    Derech HaMelech I never said it was important aspect of Jewish life, just an acceptable one for those who wish to attend. There is a BIG difference.

    #1073189

    TMB…PSST The world isnt flat…

    #1073190
    showerzinger
    Member

    As a frum Jew who does attend college (albeit online- partially to avoid issues of immorality) some of these responses are absolutely crazy. It is no longer about Cadillacs, it’s just simple math. You cannot pay tuition for the average Jewish family, forget about food,rent,etc… on a high school diploma and the minimum wage job that will get you. Yes,there are yechidei segulah who can, either thru a unique skill, or working for their shver but the general population can’t do that. The same way there are yechidei segulah that become Gedolim! BUT everyone else has to live with REALITY! Something I realize people have a hard time with today…

    #1073191
    Cedarhurst
    Member

    I never noticed that all the non-college educated population is starving on the streets, panhandling, or begging.

    #1073192
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Cedarhurst:

    You never answered my question about how much you need to make to live in Cedarhurst.

    I’m still waiting.

    #1073193
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @Cedarhurst-

    I don’t know if you thought at all before posting, but what do you think people who collect for kollels are doing? Additionally people BH are supported by their parents/in-laws in a lot of cases.

    #1073194
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Derech, how do you and your wife plan to pay for yeshiva education?

    A young couple can live off a small salary from a job that doesn’t require college education. But it is rare to be able to support a growing family including yeshiva education.

    If no one pays for yeshiva, how will the schools function?

    #1073195

    “I never noticed that all the non-college educated population is starving on the streets, panhandling, or begging”

    Thats becsue they call or go door to door 🙂

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 169 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.