Gashmiyus and Lavish Simchas (again) Where are our Gedolim?

I think the problem is because people have lavish simchas but give very little tzedakah, but if they do both it’s totally different imo

To Koifer Bikur

What’s best is to work on yourself rather than trying to change the world. I understand your frustration, but the situation isn’t going to change until Hashem decides that He’s had enough of this rampant obsession with Gashmiyus.

Start with the machshirim. If the arrangement is lavish, no hechsher or hashgocho.

Yaakov Yosef A 100%

@Koifer-BIkur:
The choice of venue/location and amount of spending does not therefore mean a gadol should boycott the wedding.

By that logic, the gadol should not allow into his shul or yeshiva anyone who does anything at all improper.

On Yom Kippur, we open the prayers by stating that we specifically permit those who sin to pray with the congregation. Obviously, if the wedding were halachically forbidden, like mixed dancing CH”V, then they (and others, too) would not be able to attend. But over-the-top spending is obviously not in that category.

Koifer Bikur – There is nothing inherently wrong with a fancy wedding if the mechutanim can afford it. You speak as if it’s an aveirah, and you are ‘disappointed’ with the ‘lack of leadership’. When Gedolei Yisroel speak out against things that ARE actually aveiros, or at least way more problematic [including things the peanut gallery hold dear…] are you then happy that they DO show leadership?

Let’s be real and see the situation as it is without losing focus. We all realize that the gedolim present were not giving a hechsher or approval on a way of life. They attended because it was in the interest of the greater good – that being the financial welfare of the Yeshiva- and that is acceptable and beneficial. It is not in anyone’s better interest to protest or boycott. No one needs to use a contributors wedding as a way to teach a lesson to the world- because the world understands why they need to attend- both for hakoras hatov for the past and an investment for the future.
If you have accepted that the proper way to make a wedding is to keep it simple yet mechubad- the pictures you have seen should not raise any questions on what you feel is right for you. Understand that there are exceptions to every rule and that fact should not sway your ideals nor your Emunas Chachamim.

YYA> There is nothing inherently wrong with a fancy wedding if the mechutanim can afford it.

There are such gezerot against excessive funerals from Mishna times, and was R Shimon b Gamliel who insisted on a modest funeral for himself.
So, it is possible to postulate a public policy based on how the kahal is affected.

My chevrusa and I were once kicked out from a class, not because our (quiet) talking affected our learning, it did not, but “because others are following your example and do not understand the material”. It was a great mussar for us…

I mean we’re talking about in this case people that support like six kollelim alone, so you can’t say they’re not holding equal weight spiritually. On the other hand it is true many times people that are blowing Millions on cars and pesach mansions barely give a cent to Torah and that should be condemned

???? ???? ??? thats the long and short of it!!

Around two years ago, I complained about lavish simchas
right here on this web site, and right here in this Coffee Room.

It was a waste of time because most people
responded by ignoring my warning or ridiculing me.

Most people do not want to change their ways;
because they are set in their ways,
and they do not like people who want them to change.

Square root sorry about your experience it’s getting obvious that that happens to everyone no matter what they say on here. Sadly

rescue –

“Living beyond your means” and “shoving your good works in everybody else’s faces” are two different things. Sheiner didn’t do either of them. He does do a great deal of Tzeddakah and Chessed.

Yaakov yosef I’m not talking about shiener. I was just giving examples of how and why and when spending extravagantly might be morally wrong.
Cuz you said it’s not an avairah. Cuz it doesn’t say it anywhere. You don’t need something to be written to know whether something is right or wrong.
But I wasn’t talking about anyone specific just giving examples

There are few misconceptions here and Ill address that separately. But first you need to remember, that we are travelers int his world as the chafetz chaiam lived and said. We don’t take the money with us. Its not our money and we jus messengers from hashem. Furthermore, luxuries and gashmyuis is the opposite of Hashem. Its a distraction that leads to all kind of averios. Pursuing those things is fundamentally against torah Judaism and what we stand for. It doesn’t bring you closer to hashem. Now to the specfic misconceptions.

1) If they give alot of tzedaka they are “entitled”. Wrong we are Jewish and nobody is entitled. Is this what brings us closer to hashem or not? Giving tzedaka or being on aderi torah is not a free hail pass. Everything you do on this world has to be to get closer to hashem.
2) why is it my business? Well firstly because I am jewish. Just like it bothers me when someone is mechalal shaboos and I do what I can to bring them closer, it bothers me when i see this kind of “Hollelus” and corrupt judiasm. Secondly, I have children. If all they hear about in school is the fancy wedding etc.. oh and that you can be torahdik too then what’s their gaols in life. And please don’t tell me oh its all about what you teach in the house. True to a certain extent, but obviusly kids attend school and play with friends. i don’t live in a cave. And what they hock about impacts too
3) But we have a bunch of stories where chasidisha rebas encouraged being gracious with money and living nicely as it encourges people to be “breit: with tzedaka too, Yes and I spoke to my chasdisha rav about this (I also spoke to a famous chasdisha rav in Baltimore about this) There are two things that people confuse. A) living comfortably, and graciously, having a nicely decorated home, dressing nicely, maybe having more conveniences etc B) Living ostentatious, huge pool side partys or lavish weddings, vaactaions that are out of this world, homes that are a block long with amillion ro0oms including a home theater and bowling alley etc. When all these chasdisha rebas so to spend money, they mean in the gracious comfortable way. They never ever meant to pursue luxuries and go all out getting attached to gshmuis. Obvouilsy there is a gray area between A &B. Where you draw the line requires sechel. but everyone knows when you are extremely overline

To sum it up, no you are not entitled and its against judaism to pursue luxuries. This craz needs to come to a full stop. Its eroding klal yisorel more than AI is, And our gedolim should get some guts and stand up and say no.

Chaim,
while you are right that rich people behavior affect the rest, and was it R Gamliel or R Shimon b Gamliel who ordered a modest funeral for himself in order to influence others? BUT a bigger issue is non-rich people cumulatively trying to play it up in front of each other. And, I suspect, dependency is an issue here:

If I am independently non-wealthy, but self-supporting, I don’t need to show off. But if I am always looking to people for various benefits – discount in yeshiva; free invitation; a job at school or a mossad; then I need to maintain my image. So, having more people supporting themselves will reduce the pressure to show off.

What about “Frum” simchahs where very loud music
blasts until 11 PM, near residential apartment buildings
with hundreds of tenants who must wake up early
the next day, to go to work, so they can pay their rent?

I have seen this MANY times, and it seems that
the people who do this have no intention of stopping.

Chaim> Its not to showoff, its just ingrained that this is what we do. And so here is the key point, the more the rich do things the higher it brings up a standard for everyone else. Its very hard not to spend the money when its the social norm. To your last point, I do not think dependcny is an issue. Thats even more rare.

“not show off, just ingrained” – you are trying to simple re-word and excuse it. It became ingrained because it is popular to show off.
I agree that rich folks are partly responsible, but these days people should know enough not to copy.

On dependency – if you take a group of those who are independently middle-class and those who depend on some community help – it is true that the first one often show off even more (as they have more funds available – and I hear it is worse in NY area than in other places), but this group contains a sizeable cluster of people who do not show off – you simply do not notice them when they do not make those lavish simchas. The dependent group is pressed more to comply. It is what I see.

These issues show up in unexpected places – some of our kids insist already 3rd year in a row that they need to give shaloch monos to teachers with a good bottle of wine. Not because they love those teachers so much – this is shayach to any teacker – but because [wide eyes] that is what everyone does. We told them – you gift what you drink – grape juice.