Gedolei Poskim in EY Again: All Jews Are Forever Forbidden From IDF. Why?

@ UJM

Please try to keep your eye on the ball

The OP claimed that “All Jews are Forever Forbidden from the IDF”

I responded that there have been prominent poskim who instructed people to join

You posted that their reasoning is Pekuach Nefish (like eating trief and Chiilul Shabbos)

You also took umbrage with me saying that you hold Z is Kfira / A”Z

Based on the above, my understanding is:
1) you disagree with the OP and hold that in cases of Pekuach Nefish one should join the IDF
2) you disagree with the contention of HaKatan and SomeJew that Z has a halachic status of Kfira / A”Z

There are other ways to understand what you said as well. So, please clarify

@ SomeJew

On this thread, I am trying to understand UJM’s point of view. He seems to say Pikuach Nefish would permit joining the IDF and that Zionism is not A”Z / Kfira. I am well aware what you have written about this. But, UJM, objected when I attributed your point of view to him. This could be because:
1) He doesn’t agree with you that Zionism is A”Z / Kfira, or
2) He does agree with you that Zionism is A”Z / Kfira bit since he hasn’t written that openly he objected to me attributing this view to him without evidence

Hoping that he will clarify his position on this so we proceed with the conversation.

I did respond to one of your posts in the Lubavich / Zionism thread. That conversation got detailed into other unrelated matters.

@somejew

you conveneniently omitted to respond to clear proof that 3 shavu’ot are not binding lema’aseh .

From a clear psak in sh’a .

You continue to repeat the demonstrable fallacy that p/n are not docheh the shavu’ot ,

while the shavu’ot are not even binding at all lehalacha.

I call on somejew to stop ignoring clear psakim of rabban shel yisrael , maran habet yosef , just because of his mistaken fantasies .
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Qiucck reminder of somejew’s post :

In (very) short, that means that if goyim – chas v’shulem – threaten masses of jews, our kosher responses are: make peace, give gifts, run away, and pray to G-d. What we are not allowed to do is organize an army and physically fight the enemy.
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Contrast that with maran bet yosef in shulhan aruch mentioned in my previous post .

Somejew is playing around with klal yisraels literal amud hahalacha here.
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There are many answers to the 3 shavous
1) We don’t pasken like aggadata
2) Its only when the goyim keep their oath and don’t cheper jews. Once there was a holocaust thats gone.

There are others too. i had a list of 3-4. Now to be fair the Satmar reba disputed these. But those that held these views were not around then anymore to answer the reba. Furthermore, the reba disputed these after the medina was founded already. At that point in time it was a mute point since it was a done deal so why argue with someone who had the bully pulpit like the satmar reba who if you dared dispute him, his mafia would go after you. he himslef was a huge tzadik but his kanois stirred the mafia around him.

As far as what agudah held, it was diverse. Ther were some to the left and some to the right. Many of the rizyna rebas held zioinsm is al pi torah and others held not like that and you had people in the middle. The imeri emes held R Kook zl was tzadik who was just misguided due to his tzidkus as you see in his letter. Many many big gedolim gheld of R Kook inlcuding R isser zlaman and R aryeah Levin. of course the chaftez chaim held of him too. Move to today when the battle is different and its isn’t about a state rather its about secularism. I think some of it is mistrust vs real issues while some of it is that the system grew into an unprecndted system where being charedi means to learn a whole life and not work because of the way things were shteled avek by the chazon ish years ago. . Its hard to break from that. But at the need of the day agaudah shita today is more to the right in terms of joining the army.

Re zionisim itself its machlokos and both sides have strong torah sources

Chaim87,
Yeah the 3 oaths are quoted in an Aggadeta gemara based on pesukim in Shir Hashirim which is NOT part of the Torah. And it’s not brought down in the big poskim – not in yad hachazakah, not in shulchan aruch or nosei keilim. As well, the Maharsha there asks, if the 3 oaths are a thing, how did they go up during bayis sheini? He answers that it was with the permission of the Persian government so it was ok. The Meshech chochma said the ratification of the Balfour Declaration was enough to permit it. The Satmar Rebbe zt”l was one opinion in a sea of opinions.

The ironic thing is the Satmar Rebbe zt”l had many views on many topics. He held that secular studies were forbidden. He held that people need to have very short hair and long payos. He would be appalled that his views are bashmutzed by the impure mouths of those who clearly have a lot of secular studies under their belts and don’t dress the way a yid should, in the view of the Satmar Rebbe zt”l. He would refer to these people as modernishe tziyoinistim!