March 20, 2023 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #2175020
Does calling shidduch references before deciding on a first date protect women from Get Refusal? Even in cases where the man is in his 20’s and has never been married before?March 20, 2023 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #2175146refoelzeevParticipant
This is a weird question. There are zero statistics regarding this.March 20, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2175151Yserbius123Participant
I don’t understand the question. You’re supposed to call the references before the first date, how else would you know if it’s a good shidduch?March 20, 2023 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #2175155
Get refusal can be legitimate or illegitimate, depending on the circumstances and ruling of Beis Din. By default, a husband is under no obligation to give a Get even if asked for one. Unless, that is, he committed a wrong proven in Beis Din where Beis Din rules that wrong obligates him per Halacha to give a Get. But there’s a only a small set of circumstances under Halacha that obligate giving a Get against his will. Absent those conditions it is within his rights to decide to decline a request for a Get.March 20, 2023 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #2175193
For cases with divorced men seeking to remarry, having the woman’s side call the Dayanim who presided over his nesinas haget as a reference can help the inquiring party determine whether or not he is too dangerous for marriageMarch 20, 2023 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #2175194
The fact that bochurim in their 20’s are subject to more reference-checking than divorced men seeking to remarry
is a very serious problem.March 20, 2023 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2175199commonsaychelParticipant
It depend if the person was smoking weedMarch 20, 2023 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #2175219
Do you believe that the references given aren’t biased in his favor? He’s not giving you his enemies as referencesMarch 20, 2023 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #2175221GadolhadorahParticipant
“It depends if the person was smoking weed…”
Which person?? Are you referring to the bochur, the shadchan or the OP?? I’m still not sure what everyone is talking about here.March 20, 2023 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #2175223Amil ZolaParticipant
Ari, are you getting shot down a lot?March 20, 2023 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2175235
Amil, Ari’s been posting here for years how terrible the girls’ mothers’ are in rejecting dates with him for all kinds of illegitimate reasons.March 21, 2023 12:38 am at 12:38 am #2175293
Divorced men need their dayanim as referencesMarch 21, 2023 12:38 am at 12:38 am #2175294
Ujm, please stick to the pshat of the original questionMarch 21, 2023 12:38 am at 12:38 am #2175295
@get-r-dun absolutely. I know a lot of bochurim and divorced men pay people to be their shidduch references.March 21, 2023 9:35 am at 9:35 am #2175316commonsaychelParticipant
Godol, all of the aboveMarch 21, 2023 9:36 am at 9:36 am #2175334
OP I don’t think you understand the subject of divorce
Dayanim can be involved if the parties ended up in front of a BD to argue / hammer out a divorce agreement. But this is completely unnecessary. And only done for people that can’t reach compromises in other ways.
But the get is presided over by a rav who is an expert . This Rav may have absolutely no knowledge about why these parties are standing in front of him. he will only confirm that it’s not a hasty decision by reaching out to the rabbis involved in the case.
So reaching out to the dayanim of a BD (assuming there is one) would be helpful. But I would assume that ethical standards would prohibit them from talking about a case brought before them.
The smarter thing is to not just call up the references on the resume.March 21, 2023 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #2175503
The question in the
OP is about preventing women from ending up under the chuppah with future Get Refusers.March 21, 2023 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #2175517
Yes. The references might say something like, “great guy, but he never lets go. If your daughter marries him one day, she is married to him until the day he dies.”March 21, 2023 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #2175531
Its a weird question and I am assuming there is an underlying point. So why not just come right out and say what is on your mind
Obviously, if there was a magic question there wouldn’t be cases of agunah (and I might add that women can be guilty of this also. I know a couple of cases of this, though admittedly the husband was allowed a heter meah)
and if UJM is correct in his assessment then maybe it is time to get a dating coachMarch 21, 2023 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #2175557
mentsch1: The OP’s underlying point, as has been for the past several years in his comments, is that girls’ moms’ are unfairly relying on shidduch references to reject a first date with him.March 21, 2023 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #2175620Dr. EParticipant
If that is a potential concern in your circles, the RCA Prenup is a solid refuah before the makkah (see https://theprenup .org). Note that some Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbanim will not be Mesader unless the Chossen signs one.March 21, 2023 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #2175657
if i wasn’t getting dates based on my references I would think the logical next step is to get new referencesMarch 21, 2023 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #2175656
In our circles the roshei yeshiva would probably refuse to be mesader if you insisted on having one signed
out of curiosity
on there any statistics on get refusal before and after the MO get prenup?March 21, 2023 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #2175653
“some Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbanim will not be Mesader unless the Chossen signs one.”
We all know which “Yeshiva” that is, and it’s the only one in the country which advocates for it.
Might not be as bad and mamzer-making as the Lieberman clause, but give it a few years and a few more social media protestors and you’ll be hearing about kidushin al tanai and hafkaahMarch 21, 2023 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #2175646
Many more Roshei Yeshivos and Rabbonim will not be mesader if the RCA Prenup *was* signed, since it potentially causes mamzeirus by coercing a Get Me’usa (i.e. Kneged Halacha).March 23, 2023 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2176187
You say as a fact that get Meuseh is kneed halacha and causes mamzeirus, I assume you are a ‘bar plugtah’ and know better than rav belsky,amongst other rabanim who was a strong advocate for them. I’m sure if these rabbonim spent as much time on yeshiva world, then they would know better.and they would be blown away by your arguments.March 23, 2023 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #2176355Dr. EParticipant
Get-r-dun: @UJM would likely also be a Bar Plugta with a Rishon–none other than the Rabbeinu Tam, whose harchakos were also developed and used for such situations. Maybe the RT was unaware of the potential concerns of Get Meusah and Mamzeirus.March 23, 2023 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #2176387
Getrdun – to be clear, rav belsky was NOT in favor of the ridiculous prenup of the RCA.
You are correct that he along with any other posek im familiar with, was in favor of coercion in the circumstances when a husband is obligated to divorce his wife and refuses.March 23, 2023 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #2176390
Speaking of rishonim, there are many opinions about how to make tanaim, which is why we never use tanaim in kiddushin nowadays.
But to a community which turns a blind eye to illicit relations in general, how bothered are they by mamzerus? Maybe “it’s not the kids fault” and “why should get be up to a man only” and other apostasies are fueling their desire to make loopholes.March 23, 2023 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #2176399
Gittin intrinsically involve messy situations. And this has unfortunately carried over to many of the halachic aspects of divorce. If you really want to help, you would leave these topics to the experts. Making them into partisan issues, only makes it worse.March 23, 2023 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2176499
I’ve heard many people make comments like, why don’t the rabbis change the laws…. rabbis can only make safeguards or certain stringencies to uphold a torah law, it’s amazing how many Frum ppl don’t understand this.March 23, 2023 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2176485
And that’s just the issue – the RCA have made themselves “experts” when the vast majority of its constituency are outmatched in learning by an average 22 year old BMG bochur.March 23, 2023 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2176484
Nom, it’s the RCA people who made it partisan – they knew exactly how the Torah world was going to respond, and they broke off, doing what they wanted. In the name of women’s rights, championing the cause of the largely fabled agunah and stripping a man of any semblance of leverage should he be abused or have his kids ripped from him unjustly.
And what they’re doing only contributes to divorces, with an escape patch baked right into their marriage documents.
And it’s not as if MO are strangers to creating mamzerim. Many still refer to mamzer maker par excellence Shlomo Goren as “harav”.
That’s partisan.March 23, 2023 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #2176529@fakenewsParticipant
@N0mesorah: gitin are an intrinsically Halachah-based issue. Putting other feelings before the letter of the Shulchan Aruch is not just a mistake but a travesty. There is no room for partisanship.
The Gemarah (Gitin 5A) is very clear that “כל השונה ממטבע שטבעו כחמים בגיטין יוציא והולד ממזר” which means that if you try to make an end run around what was proscribed by rabbinic authorities who are thousands of years farther up the chain of the mesorah than we are, the children WILL be mamzerim.March 23, 2023 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #2176556
What does Goren have to do with the RCA?March 23, 2023 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #2176544
I am not endorsing anything, Chas V’shalom that anybody should read my post that way!
My point was that us as the laity should say that gittin are very complex and critical to the concept of a future klal yisrael, and it is better to be an agunah or lose some money than to use an invalid get.
That is the whole focus of what we should be saying. Because even though there could be bad gittin out there, the rabbonim have a round about way of working with each other to resolve these issues.
But now that people are clamoring on the street, it stifles the rabbinc channels, and forces an abrupt end to unresolved gittin. There are gittin out there that the husband never gave in any sense of the word, but the experts can detect these and deal with them. But they cannot deal with hordes of unruly ignorami. Be they MO, YV, or Hasidic.March 23, 2023 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #2176546
Everything that you post is partisan to you. Just because the RCA enacted something, it doesn’t mean they plan to use the way some of their rabbis do. And they wouldn’t use those rabbis gittin at all. But since everyone is looking because you decided to yell about it, you forced their hand. Basically, your a tool of the extreme left on this issue. The biggest activists who are trying to improve gittin move in complete public silence.March 23, 2023 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #2176557
The average of every constituency knows less than the twenty year old BMG bachur. The constituency of every group, includes women, all the kids, the working men, drop outs, and learning disabled. Those still learning full time are highly advanced. Why would anybody post such a statistically insignificant point?
Oh right! The author thinks that only the full time learner is in the yeshiva community. But not his kids, wife, parents, or siblings. That has been my response to you for over a year. I’m still waiting to see how you cope with this.March 23, 2023 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #2176558
I learned the hard way that some RCA rabbis learned in BMG.
As the Rambam writes, arayos is a universal problem. Any yeshivishe bochur who knows the hock, wouldn’t throw stones at the MO on this issue. It’s worse by us.March 24, 2023 1:11 am at 1:11 am #2176628
Nom, when i said an average BMG bochur outclasses an average RCA pulpit rabbi, i am referring to…rabbis. Not other classes. What i mean is that the amount of names put on something which happen to have the title “rabbi” next to it is meaningless, if those rabbis aren’t experts, and basically know what to tell you to do if milk hits your cholent pot.
And yes, it is very partisan for a group of rabbis to try and upheave marriages; it’s intentionally subversive, and they knew exactly what they were doing when they did it and how the rest of us would respond. Things like marriage and divorce, gerus, should be issues of mutual understanding, with one community not doing something which can, according to the other, result in mamzerim.
My snarky comments about MO, mamzerus and illicit relations holds true – while it’s also true that many rabbis in the Torah world uave been found to have been immoral, this is in spite of a communal abhorrence of such conduct. Vechen lo yayaseh. Are people of any background susceptible to the yatzer hora, especially if in a position of power? Definitely!
editedMarch 24, 2023 1:13 am at 1:13 am #2176622
N0m: Some JTS rabbis also learned in BMG.
Arayos is absolutely a far larger provided by the left-wing crowds, such as the YU oilem that large numbers have girlfriends openly and have no compunctious viewing Hollywood pritzus even publicly.March 24, 2023 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #2176697
That is not what it means. Your posts on these morals are as Torah-less as a kids at risk whatsapp group. Come to think of it, you’re probably on those too!March 24, 2023 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #2176720anonymous JewParticipant
UJM, what is your factual, statistical basis for your arayos claim? Can you define what you mean by a girlfriend and the halachic basis for condemning their existence?March 25, 2023 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #2176781
AJ: It is Halachicly forbidden to have a girlfriend. (See Igros Moshe E.H. 4:60 for the Halachic citations.) The crowd that openly has girlfriends and proudly watches Hollywood flicks with miniskirted (and far worse) people is obviously going to have far more arayos than the crowd that doesn’t have girlfriends or watch movies.March 26, 2023 12:13 am at 12:13 am #2176937
“is obviously going to have far more ..”
It makes all the logical sense that it should be that way. But in reality, it’s equal. Why? I don’t have an opinion. I just rely on whatever the Rambam says on this topic.
PS Even if it was Halachicly permitted to have a girlfriend, it should lead to the same problems. You really destroy your own arguments on this topic.March 26, 2023 12:13 am at 12:13 am #2176938
I wasn’t talking about a few bad apples. Rather the best of the bunch issuing gittin that are halachically very questionable.
In certain ways, the MO set up is better than the YV when it comes to sticky problems. (Gittin, Kiddushin, Geirus, etc.)March 26, 2023 5:39 am at 5:39 am #2176962
N0: False citation of Rambam. Rambam absolutely does not say these two groups have the same extent and degree of arayos issues as each other. They are most certainly far from equal between the two groups I cited.March 26, 2023 9:01 am at 9:01 am #2176994
Ujm is right; while arayos are a problem anywhere, first of all, “miutan barayos” – it’s a minority. But it’s simple and clear that if a community is lax in the gedorim which prevent arayos, and downplay the severity of the issue altogether, they are definitely going to have more of it than if not.
I have no idea where you got the fantasy that a large percentage of rabbonim who are involved in gitten are corrupt.
Also, for gerus…are you serious? MO produces gerim that are questionable on a regular basis – ever see ivanka trump? She admitted to not keeping every halacha, saying in an interview that “we’re more religious than some, less than others,” while walking around dressed like a shiksa.
And she’s far from the exception. MO converts often know and keep very little.March 26, 2023 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #2177023lakewhutParticipant
It’s not a get me’usa to sign a prenup. It’s a guys choice. They don’t only need to pick a MO Beit Din. There are Lakewood Batei Dinim that have a similar framework now.March 26, 2023 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #2177039
Lake….batei din aren’t mesader kidushin; that claim falls flat on its face.
The rema says if someone makes a knas on himself during kidushin that he’ll pay X amount if he divorces his wife, it’s a probable get mi’usa. Some rabbis, including a couple of actual poskim, say that the prenup is different, because it requires mezonos instead of a knas….i really don’t get what the difference is.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.