get rid of smart phone

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  • #1072464
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    Once we’re tallying up who’s on what side, counta me in.

    I agree, rabbis should not come out against every little thing as that

    eventually burns us out from listening ( case in point- go to jerusalem and see if anyone cares about any of the large amount of kol korays plastered everywhere)

    But this isnt just an issue where each person can try to help the klal and make a difference. Not an issue like molestation which really only happens here and there (terrible nonetheless i know). We have here a problem that literally pertains to everyone, to their own lives. I know parents that had no clue about the dangers until they had their eyes opened to what happens when you give a child a smartphone.

    #1072465
    Logician
    Participant

    The fact that this conversation is, as usual, focused mostly on our children and their susceptibility to this problem, shows how far we are from recognizing what is going on in our communities, and how foolishly confident we are in our ability to withstand nisyonos.

    Of course, children may be more susceptible. And there is certainly a difference in adults’ vs. teens’ practical need for such devices.

    Yet Rabbonim and therapists involved in this sugya are constantly reiterating how widespread the problems are, and how most people who ended up with problems in this area honestly thought themselves ‘above’, or relatively immune, to such nisyonos. The stories I know of, just from one friend who works in this field (no personal details, of course) are endless and horrifying. Yet so many people truly think the issue is limited to protecting our children.

    End of my point. From here, rant:

    Learn a little mussar. Turn our ability to criticize, so commonplace when it comes to others, inwards, and activate a little Yiras Shamayim. If we were truly afraid of aveiros, would we so easily convince ourselves with the type of justifications thrown about here ? Do what you want, but at least have the honesty to call a spade a spade.

    #1072466

    There’s an old saying in yiddish (I’ll say it in English) “She says the daughter but means the mother”. Everyone knows that the problem is as bad for adults as teenagers and kids, but it’s more comfortable to talk about the kids.

    #1072467
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    i think i was the first one to bring up the child aspect, otherwise for the most part people (me included) were talking about adults

    #1072468
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Smartphones are addictive”

    I was running all over NYC today, with business in the Bronx, Manhattan, and Brooklyn. For hours I listened to shiurim that I had downloaded onto my smartphone as I went from one subway to the next. (Actually, six different subway lines plus two bus lines.)

    “Daas Torah is unequivocal”

    My rabbis have a different daat.

    #1072469
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Charlie Hall – Nobody suggested that everyone is ????. Nobody said either that there are no uses to smartphones. Nobody said that smartphones cannot be used to advance in ‘????? ?.

    The point is – any smartphone unfiltered is a terrible, terrible ?????, and definitely for most adult males. And owning a smartphone and not filtering it is putting yourself in a ??? on ?????.

    Challenge to anybody with an unfiltered smartphone: Can you honestly tell me, looking me in the eye, that you have never been ???? in ????? ????? or ????? ?????? as a result of your smartphone? Not even once, by-mistake, wasn’t-your-fault? Did you ever see one image that is lower than where you would place your standards? (And if not, do you perhaps need to raise your standards slightly?)

    It is sad that in our generation, we haven’t got the self control to be able to have an unfiltered smartphone and not transgress dozens of issurim. But it is no different to Yichud. We have to stop underestimating the tremendous power of the Yetzer Hara, and not place yourself into a ??? of ?????.

    #1072470
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    I was just about to begin responding to Charlie when I took note of yekke2’s post. I cannot really think of anything to add. Yes, it’s great that you listened to shiurim (although it’s not as if shiurim are inaccessible through any other mean), and it’s obvious there are positive uses to certain technologies, but I fail to see as to why that should change anything. The negatives far outweigh the positives, and as such bringing them up is facetious, as Y2 has said. And besides, why not keep the positive content and block everything else?

    It is sad that instead of changing their behavior to suit halacha (in this instance, a mefurash gezeira d’rabbonon,even apart from yichud), they try to subvert halacha to suit them. No Rav with any authority could advocate unfiltered, unnecessary, or unfettered internet use. Fact. I would be interested to hear the source of your ‘daat’.

    #1072472
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its much easier to blame society ills on smartphones and easier to give mussar on them than do the same for molestation, abuse, Finances, Agunahs etc

    #1072473
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    ZD:

    I’m sorry to put it this way, but your argument thus far has contained no merit whatsoever. I’m unsure as to why I am crediting this with a response, just after I pointed out that bringing up a secondary, or even primary, issue does not affect the validity of the initial issue. Or to put it in simple terms, there can be more than one bad thing in the world at any one time. And obviously, the key issue, unfettered Internet and it’s uses and abuses, is being completely ignored and/or derided. So I’ll try and make this simple:

    Should a person own a portable, internet enabled device that allows unnecessary, possibly problematic, Internet access? Yes or No?

    #1072474
    charliehall
    Participant

    “gezeira d’rabbonon”

    There is no gezeira against smartphones. They didn’t exist in the time of Ravina and Rav Ashi.

    MO and DL rabbis use modern technology to spread Torah. There is even one promient DL posek, Rav Aviner, who has published volumes of his text message responsa. I have personally had shilahs answered via text message. And the number of MO Torah shiurim on the internet is practically uncountable — YU alone has more than a hundred thousand shiurim on its web site. Think about that. Even were you to devote eight hours a day to nonstop learning just the YU shiurim it would take decades to learn them all, and you wouldn’t ever get through them because they typically add several new ones every day as practically every shiur there is recorded.

    This represents a revolution in the degree to which Torah can be spread that rivals the introduction of the printing press! And just like printed books, there is stuff we shouldn’t see. But would anyone seriously argue that we should burn all our printed books and go back to handwritten manuscripts?

    If you can’t be trusted to avoid the porn and gambling sites, by all means donate your smartphone to a shelter for victims of abuse and stay off the internet. But I would suspect that for most of us, a shiur with audio and text on my smartphone is a much better use of time on the subway than observing all the immodest advertising (and there is currently one series of ads on the outside of subway trains that is particularly bad). When I saw that on a train I just turned away and looked back at the Hebrew text on my phone and started listened to yet another shiur.

    #1072475

    Zd: that’s the third time you tried to divert the thread from the issue at hand. Three strikes and you’re out.

    #1072476
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Sirvoddmort:

    It is sad that instead of changing their behavior to suit halacha (in this instance, a mefurash gezeira d’rabbonon,even apart from yichud)

    “Mefurash gezeira d’rabbonon” is pushing it. The Gedolim of our time do not have the ?? of a Bes Din Hagodoil.

    Its much easier to blame society ills on smartphones and easier to give mussar on them than do the same for molestation, abuse, Finances, Agunahs etc

    Firstly, mixing secondary issues into an argument is paramount to announcing that you lost the argument, for it is an admission that you have nothing to say on the issue itself. (Think: “Well, my daddy is bigger than your daddy.”)

    Secondly, there is a tremendous difference between the issues you mentioned, which effect ?????? in the Kehilla, and smartphones, which are a totally widespread problem that potentially affects every household.

    #1072477
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    Charliehall and Yekke2:

    What I was referring to is the one (and here I apologise for not finding the correct loshon or maareh mokom, I simply cannot be bothered) that says that one who walks in a place were they are likely to be exposed to immorality, even if they do not look, is called a rosha. This applies to the internet too. And many contemporary Gedolim call being alone with an internet enabled device yichud. I was not saying the ban is by itself a gezeirah, simply that it ties in to an existing one. So you may pick either of those.

    #1072478
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its not diversion, Kanoim are using the smartphones as a diversion for their own failures.

    How many Asifas have their been for smartphones and how many asifas for Molestation, Abuse, Agunahs , Finances combined. It shows where priorities lay.

    Smartphones are widespread in the Kehilla, but the other issues are a problem with leadership. If you knew for a fact a person used a smartphone or let an abuser get free. Whom would you consider a bigger Rasha. The leadership who poo-poos these bigger issues are causing people not to follow the Rabbanim. If people lose faith in the Rabbanim you have a much bigger problem

    #1072479
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    Charliehall:

    And now, having explained what I meant by gezeira, for my main riposte. Quite simply, you have not dealt with any of the serious issues. You have pointed out, correctly, that the internet is a useful delivery system of Torah (although I won’t comment on the examples you’ve chosen). This is true. But that does not weaken my point. Firstly, you can block the ‘regular’ internet and permit only Torah and business content. Problem solved. We haven’t gone back to the dark ages and we haven’t lost his resource. Secondly, the fact that Torah can be disseminated online is inconsequential when balanced against the dangers of the Internet. As in the example of the guy who justifies having a smartphone by pointing to his tanach app, it is better to not have the app and not have the phone. Happily, as per the first point, one can keep the Torah and block all else, so it doesn’t have to come to that.

    Your second point is more troubling, hashkafa wise. You basically say that there is no issue with the Internet if one has the mental strength to avoid it’s dangers. This is, quite simply, completely wrong. As I pointed out above, the Gemora calls one who goes down a road that has immoral sites visible on it, even if one doesn’t look, is called a Rosha. Placing oneself in a matzav of nisoyon is ossur. Simple as that. The internet plainly falls into this category, both because of what one might see by accident and what one may be tempted to see/do. Filtering the internet strongly or only allowing essential apps is the simple answer to this, if one desperately needs the internet for work. It’s not a matter of simply trusting oneself, as halacha and true daas torah repeatedly tells us.

    #1072480
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    wolfish

    sirvoddmort, I’m not sure why you included me as agreeing with you. I didn’t agree or disagree. I merely commented on a grammar issue.

    The Wolf

    #1072481
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    Wolfish:

    Sorry, I was scanning quickly and must have included your name by mistake. I agree with you about the grammar, if for nothing else that it made some of the opposing answers even less intelligible.

    #1072482
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Sorry, mistake.

    S’okay. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #1072483
    Chortkov
    Participant

    If you can’t be trusted to avoid the porn and gambling sites, by all means donate your smartphone to a shelter for victims of abuse and stay off the internet. But I would suspect that for most of us…

    Charlie: “?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????”. The Gemara brings stories of how the Holy Tannah R’ Meir, whose Madreigos we cannot begin to fathom, was seduced by the Yetzer Hora and began climbing a tree to do ????. The ???? tells us about the Kohen Gadol of 80 years who became a ?????. The Issur of Yichud applies equally to those who believe they can control themselves. No one is safe.

    A Bochur once wanted to go to a mixed (seating) wedding of a relative, and asked permission from R’ Leib Lopian zt”l. R’ Leib asked him how he could go to such a place? He replied that he was going to sit separately with a sefer, and he ‘wouldn’t look’. R’ Leib smiled at him sadly: “I’m 80 years old and blind in one eye, yet I am scared every time a walk in the streets that I’ll see something I shouldn’t. You are 20, young and impressionable, and you are going to walk into a matzav of nisayon like that?”

    It could be that most of the time you do have the self control. But are you telling me that you have never been ???? on an unfiltered smartphone? You have never seen one indecent photo?

    And I’m not talking about pornographic websites either; I am talking about normal, everyday websites with photos that are – and definitely should be – below your standards. Challenge: Can you honestly tell me that you have never seen anything you shouldn’t have?

    #1072484
    Chortkov
    Participant

    As I pointed out above, the Gemora calls one who goes down a road that has immoral sites visible on it, even if one doesn’t look, is called a Rosha.

    Sirvoddmort – Forgive me for being pedantic, but for someone who prides himself on writing with the correct grammar, surely you could have written the above sentence slightly better?

    And did ‘sites’ get ironically confused with ‘sights’?

    You basically say that there is no issue with the Internet if one has the mental strength to avoid it’s dangers.

    Its. No apostrophe.

    #1072485
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Smartphones are widespread in the Kehilla, but the other issues are a problem with leadership. If you knew for a fact a person used a smartphone or let an abuser get free. Whom would you consider a bigger Rasha. The leadership who poo-poos these bigger issues are causing people not to follow the Rabbanim. If people lose faith in the Rabbanim you have a much bigger problem

    You’re right. There are a couple of Yidden who are ???? ???, so let’s forget about Loshon Horo.

    If you want to start a rant against any particular trait of the yiddishe kehillas, feel free to open a new thread*. What does any of this have to do with smartphones?

    * I’m sure Jewish Thinker won’t mind if you post it on his milk thread.

    #1072486
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A Bochur once wanted to go to a mixed (seating) wedding of a relative, and asked permission from R’ Leib Lopian zt”l. R’ Leib asked him how he could go to such a place? He replied that he was going to sit separately with a sefer, and he ‘wouldn’t look’. R’ Leib smiled at him sadly: “I’m 80 years old and blind in one eye, yet I am scared every time a walk in the streets that I’ll see something I shouldn’t. You are 20, young and impressionable, and you are going to walk into a matzav of nisayon like that?”

    There was a story of I think Rav Moshe, (It was an american Gadol from that time period, so I could be mistaken, but it was a well known Gadol). He was at some dinner honoring a big baal chesed. One of his talmidim came up to him and asked. “Rebbe , how can you attend an affair with mixed seating” . Rav Moshe (or whomever it was) said. The Honoree was a big Baal Chessed and warranted the Kavod of him attending the dinner honoring this person. Rav Moshe then sat next to his Rebbitzen.

    #1072487
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Yekke

    In life you cant fight every battle, you have to pick and choose them . You have to pick which battles you think you can win and which you might lose (but still win a moral victory) and those which you fight that you will lose more than you gain.

    #1072488
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    Zahavasdad:

    Firstly, you still haven’t answered the direct question I posed above regarding whether one should own a smartphone. And all you have offered is pure, unadulterated pointless extrapolation. Yes, people are abused, yes, it’s wrong, yes, we could probably do more to combat it. And therefore?

    Unfettered Internet is an issue by itself. We could argue about whether it is a bigger issue than the one you’ve mentioned till the cows come home. You’d be wrong, but I can’t see that fazing you, it hasn’t so far. But it is still and issue, and one that must be dealt with. You yourself have pointed out that Internet use is widespread. To any person possessing logical thought, this means not that we should roll over and ignore the problem as it mutates and continues to ruin people, but that we should do even more to combat it. And for once, actually explain why you believe the Internet is not an issue we must address, and not just bring up other issues you feel are worse, both because they’re not and because there being other issues doesn’t sort out this one. And we can sort out this one.

    #1072489
    Chortkov
    Participant

    There was a story of I think Rav Moshe, (It was an american Gadol from that time period, so I could be mistaken, but it was a well known Gadol). He was at some dinner honoring a big baal chesed. One of his talmidim came up to him and asked. “Rebbe , how can you attend an affair with mixed seating” . Rav Moshe (or whomever it was) said. The Honoree was a big Baal Chessed and warranted the Kavod of him attending the dinner honoring this person. Rav Moshe then sat next to his Rebbitzen.

    I’m not sure what you are trying to prove from this story. Were you arguing with anything I said on this thread, or was it just a tidbit of information related to my post?

    ([BTW, there is a big difference between a Chasuna and a dinner in regards to the taaruvos problem.])

    #1072490
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    yekke2:

    Hoisted on my own petard. But incidentally, I don’t recall ever mentioning grammar, at least not on this thread. But you’re right, I do value grammar, and attempt to conform to it best as I can. Unfortunately, I am far from perfect in this respect. So kudos to you for spotting it. But there is a world of difference between the occasional mistype, and certain posts that verge on unintelligible. And by the way, I am getting slightly confused as to the nature of the discussion on this particular thread. Firstly, others and I presented reasoned arguments against smart technology. This was responded to in a fashion that ignored almost all the main issues. Since reasoned debate appeared to be failing, I for one resorted to direct questions in the hope of eliciting a coherent reply that actually made sense, as, I assume, did you. You asked if the poster you were talking to had ever inadvertently seen anything online they would consider below their standards. As for me, I asked bluntly whether the other poster agreed there was an issue with unfettered internet use. I also wished to know why the presence of a separate issue in any way diminishes the first one. I am simply curious as to why none of these have received coherent responses that do not include needless extrapolation and that actually address the issue. Do you know?

    Rant over.

    #1072491
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    zdad so ur saying which battle should be fought? tad confused.

    Personally i dont know of that many molestation cases, and by extension their cover ups, but i dont think its a problem that should be so public. At least the specifics of cases shoulnt be.

    Dont know which leader only poo poos those issues but aside from charlies chevra everyone warns of the dangers the internet puts you in. Are you actually saying there is noone you look up to? There isnt any rabbi that wasnt informed about molestations going on? A rabbi that does in fact try to take care of both these issues?

    #1072492
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Hoisted on my own petard. But incidentally, I don’t recall ever mentioning grammar, at least not on this thread. But you’re right, I do value grammar, and attempt to conform to it best as I can.

    I included a link in the words of my post to the post in which you discussed grammar in this thread. Click on the words “writing with the correct grammar”.

    I’ll put the link here as well:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/get-rid-of-smart-phone/page/2#post-564692

    #1072493
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I am simply curious as to why none of these have received coherent responses that do not include needless extrapolation and that actually address the issue. Do you know?

    There are a few answers, each relevant to different posters.

    My question was a very personal question. For somebody with an identity on a public forum to announce that he may have done an issur is highly embarrassing. And anybody would know that to deny any mishap – both intentionally and unintentionally – would simply be led to accusations of denial, lying or trolling.

    Another possibility is that posters haven’t got time or intelligence to read long posts; they simply write their thoughts on the issue and don’t follow it up. Especially if they know that the person they are arguing with has far too much time on their hands (excuse me), and will pursue the issue until the bitter end.

    A third possibility is – and perhaps the most likely of all – they have no answer.

    #1072494
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am saying its best to put your efforts in battles that you will either win a real victory or a moral victory.

    IE for example A decree was that there would be no more get witholding agunahs for money and it was publically declared that anyone witholding a get creating Agunahs for 5-10 years will be punished. Even if the battle fails There will still be a moral victory.

    However one could protest CHilul Shabbos ie and not only not get people to stop chilul Shabbos, but they will get hostile and perhaps declare war on you. How many people have become Shomer Shabbos because people yelled at them driving?

    #1072495
    Chortkov
    Participant

    ZD – The purpose of Asifas are not to sort out issues. Chizzuk dissipates fairly quickly, and the inspiration does not last long. The main purpose of the Asifa is to raise awareness about the issue the Gedolim feel people don’t understand the danger of.

    (i) Molesting is nogea only to very few individuals in the Kehilla.

    (ii) Molesting is not a topic with any purpose in publicizing. The more people know about it, the worse it is for everyone – for the victims, the molesters, the Rabbanim.

    (iii) “??? ?????? ??????” – the main point of Asifas are not intended for the sinners. It is for the ???? ?? who are unaware of various issues worth speaking about. We don’t make Asifas for people who are intentionally doing wrong things.

    And as I wrote, if you have a problem with molesters, open a new thread.

    #1072496
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    zdad ya i know moral victory wtvr. Why the heck is married jewish people watching porn, getting sucked into stuff turning them into introverted freaks, destroying families, something which applies to every single person,

    not a major issue? not a battle that can be “morally won”?

    #1072497
    Chortkov
    Participant
    #1072499
    mw13
    Participant

    charliehall:

    “If you can’t be trusted to avoid the porn and gambling sites, by all means donate your smartphone to a shelter for victims of abuse and stay off the internet.”

    Tell me, do you think the issur of yichud is only for those who “can’t be trusted” to control themselves? Or do we see that Chazal realized (quite accurately, if I may say so) that this is an issue that everybody struggles with, and gedarim must be set in place for everyone? We cannot bury our heads in the sand – this s a very real issue that many, many frum people struggle with.

    zahavasdad:

    A) If something is assur, there can be no discussion of “picking battles”, “turning the other way”, etc. The last time somebody tried that on a grand scale was the Conservative movement about driving on Shabbos; how’d that work out for them?

    B) The fact there are other pressing issues facing World Jewry does not detract from this particular issue.

    C) I find it somewhat disturbing that you do not seem to think widespread violations of halacha pertaining to kedusha to be a pressing issue.

    D) Changing the subject will not make these points go away.

    yekke2, happy to entertain.

    #1072500
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    While burying one’s head in the sand is not a recommended activity for humans, ostriches put their heads in the sand for important reasons.

    #1072501
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Zahavasdad – What do you say to mw13’s excellently executed point (I posted a link)? I think he’s shown you – in a way that none of us managed with intellectual discussion – exactly how crazy your tainah sounds.

    Charlie Hall – any response?

    #1072502
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It was an insane comparison, its easy to get a smoke detector and it saves lives. And if you dont want a smoke dector, then dont get one. And if your house burns down and people die because they didnt know about the fire, dont blame anyone but yourself.

    And if you are so against smart phones, why are you here? I have heard specifically from some poskim not to visit this very website (they have mentioned it by name).

    #1072503
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And if you are so against smart phones, why are you here?

    This site is available from a PC.

    #1072505
    Chortkov
    Participant

    “And it saves lives…”

    So does a filter on a smartphone. One saves life, the other saves your soul. The difference is that a smoke detector is necessary for the unlikely event of a fire, but filters are there to take away the constant pull of the Evil Inclination.

    Is it so difficult to comprehend?

    #1072506
    Chortkov
    Participant

    BTW, I don’t have a smartphone. And if I did, I would have downloaded the YWN App and then blocked the browser, like family members of mine. The computer I use to post is under the Windows Live Family Safety filter, which is a whitelist filter controlled by my father. The only allowed websites are YWN, Gmail, DebkaFile, MetOffice Weather and Hebrewbooks.

    And do you mind quoting the ‘poskim’ who named this website as a place not to be? And if you have heard from poskim who you deem reliable and choshuv enough to quote, why are you here? Surely ignoring the psak of Gedolim is something you wouldn’t do?!

    #1072507
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It was an insane comparison

    I think you misunderstood the comparison. I don’t think mw13 was comparing smartphones to smoke detectors as much as comparing reaction to the rebuttals.

    Some posters are saying that we shouldn’t focus on technology nisyonos because we have other, more pressing issues. Others are responding that one issue doesn’t wipe out the need to deal with another.

    The comparison of claiming that we shouldn’t deal with the smoke detector issue because we need to deal with more pressing issues was quite apt, in my opinion.

    #1072508
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Around the time of the Asifa, this website and another one like this who are well known in the frum velt came up by name and I heard from more than one Rav, about it.

    Not that is any of your business, but I make my parnassah from the internet and smart phones. I am constantly in need of looking up stuff to see if I should buy or sell and need to answer questions. If you are willing to take over my income then we can talk. And I do have close family members who are poseks and they know exactly what I do for a living and they have no problem with it.

    #1072509
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, that is a much better answer than the previous ones given by you and others.

    It doesn’t seek to minimize the danger, it doesn’t say it doesn’t matter because there are worse problems, it doesn’t justify it for shiurim (for which an MP3 would be sufficient), or for other useful Torah apps. It simply says that for you, it’s a necessary tool for your parnassah.

    I don’t think anyone on this thread has said that you, ZD, shouldn’t have a smartphone. I think the two things which were said were: someone who doesn’t have a pressing need, such as parnassah, shouldn’t have one, and that someone who does have one should install a filter and monitoring program to minimize the risk.

    #1072510
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    You missed my point then, In life we can only fight so many battles. We do need to pick and choose which ones to fight. Choosing to fight all battles means we will be tapped out and lose energy . There is not unlimited energy and resources to fight every battle.

    #1072511
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    True, I didn’t address that.

    I don’t think at this point it’s so much a battle; at least in chutz la’aretz, I see many smartphones in chareidi communities. The issue is education, that it’s dangerous and therefore precautions should be taken.

    As others have pointed out, the danger is indeed great, so even should you choose to call it a battle, I don’t see why, other than the fact that it’s uncomfortable for you since you have one, you think this particular battle should be the one given up.

    #1072512
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    I cant speak for anyone else, but everyone I know unless they are in kollel or manual laborers needs constant connectivity for parnassah. Its just the way of the world. E-mail, Instant messaging, Social Media are ways people do business. I myself have obtained several multi-million accounts via linkedin (Used properly it can help obtain proper contacts)

    #1072513
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Around the time of the Asifa, this website and another one like this who are well known in the frum velt came up by name and I heard from more than one Rav, about it.

    Not that is any of your business, but I make my parnassah from the internet and smart phones. I am constantly in need of looking up stuff to see if I should buy or sell and need to answer questions. If you are willing to take over my income then we can talk. And I do have close family members who are poseks and they know exactly what I do for a living and they have no problem with it.

    ZD – Thank you for your response. The first one that actually addresses the issue rather than circumventing it. If you do need it for business, and have the consent of your poskim, by all means have a smartphone. But if I was your Posek, I would say you must also have a blacklist filter to stop you being ????. And you should use Adblock, etc., to “Kosher” the Internet.

    #1072514
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    And if you are so against smart phones, why are you here?

    really? first of all like everyone else said this site has nothing to do with owning smart phones. second who cares what im doing? i can separate what i do from my thoughts on what is right and what is wrong. plus, something on such a large scale-affecting the public- is so much easier to remove your personal negius from and admit that there is an issue.

    as for the rest, think DY explained why you were being dishonest.

    edited

    #1072515
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    But if I was your Posek, I would say you must also have a blacklist filter to stop you being ????. And you should use Adblock, etc., to “Kosher” the

    You are not my posek , nor anyone else’s posek for that matter, You cannot make blanket statements on halacha from the internet.

    You have no idea what I do exactly for parnassah (except it has to do with commerce on in the internet) you cannot make any statements about adblock. No I dont go to Prizus sites, but I defiantrly need access to sites like youtube and technical forums where people ask and discuss technical questions. No way to white list sites if I dont know what they are

    You do not know how many people need to phone for business (which is most people nowadays)

    #1072516
    Chortkov
    Participant

    ZD – I was thinking of prefacing “I know I’m not your posek and my opinion means nothing to you…”, but I thought I’d give you the enjoyment of telling it to me yourself.

    No way to white list sites if I dont know what they are

    Did I tell you to whitelist your phone? I believe I told you that a blacklist filter is necessary. Any ‘business’ which requires you to use websites blocked by Blacklist filters requires serious halachic clarification. There is a difference, you know. And if you need access to all the adverts out there, I hope you have halachic backing for that (more than just ‘poseks who are relatives’ who know what you do and have no problem, unless that means they explicitly told you its okay). Are the indecent adverts muttar to look at for business?

    And, lets get the issue down to the core, like I attempted a couple of time before – nobody seems willing to answer.

    Can you tell me honestly that you have never seen anything that is detrimental to yourself as a Frum Yid, or a ??? ???? online? You have never visited a site that you wouldn’t do if somebody you knew was looking over your shoulder? You have never seen – whether purposely or otherwise – an image that falls below your standards?

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