April 17, 2018 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1507344TheWizardParticipant
If a woman gets a ride with a male colleague or neighbor or family friend, from work or to the airport or whatever, is it appropriate for her to sit in the front passenger seat rather than in the back seat? Is it appropriate for her to accept the ride altogether?
Is it any different if a woman is driving and the passenger is male?
Is it relevant whether the man and woman are cousins with each other or uncle/niece?
Does it make a difference whether the woman is single or married?April 17, 2018 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1507847icemelterParticipant
“Does it make a difference whether the woman is single or married?”
– of course it makes a difference, if shes not married it can be a great shidduch opp!April 17, 2018 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1507917ToiParticipant
Just tie her to the roof, problem solved.April 17, 2018 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1507953yungerman123Participant
Regular dinim of yichud apply. R’ Moshe z”l held that a car in particular lends itself to easily transgressing the issur of yichud. Unmarried boys and girls should be particularly machmir. I remember as a bachur out-of-town refusing on many occasions to drive single girls on my way to shacharis, as it was before sunrise. On several occasions, I did give a girl a ride on erev shabbos, only to her destination in the city on busy streets, and she sat in the back. And it still isnt so comfortable.April 17, 2018 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1507964Eli YParticipant
On one occasion where I was driving out-of-towner’s back to the airport after a wedding, I had the occasion to drive by herself a widowed female who happened to be the widow of a big-time Rabbi from Toronto. She sat in the back seat. There was no question she would sit there and looking back, if I had directed her to sit in the front that would have been the height of impropriety.
EditedApril 17, 2018 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1507970
Yungerman: I believe that halachicly there’s reason to be machmir about giving an eishes ish a ride (whether you’re a bochor or a yungerman) even more than with a single girl.April 17, 2018 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1507974
Cousins/Uncle/Niece are even more machmir than strangers due to Libo Gas Bo.April 17, 2018 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1507977Uncle BenParticipant
Toi: I tell my wife to just let the men hold on to the roof rack. Why bother with the rope and all.April 17, 2018 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1508019yudelParticipant
Rav avignor miller said t it’s yehuraig vahl yavoir.April 18, 2018 6:44 am at 6:44 am #1508082
Recently I had the opportunity to be in such a position.
My Rav said I should sit in the back, preferably directly behind the driver. (If there’s 2 men in front it doesn’t really matter) and should not talk at all, preferably to put in earphones.April 18, 2018 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1508069☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
April 18, 2018 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1508288
Giving a female neighbor a ride is different than driving your date, as far as sitting in the front passenger seat is concerned?April 18, 2018 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1508311
@slominer of course. I hope you wouldn’t talk to your neighbor nearly as much as you would talk to your date, unless you happen to be DATING your neighbor.April 18, 2018 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #1508172avreimiParticipant
It is somewhat sad that we are so obsessed and scared of innocent relationships with the opposite gender. What about the positive mitzvah involved in helping someone? Isn’t that worth something?April 18, 2018 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1508405☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
It is somewhat sad that we are so obsessed and scared of innocent relationships with the opposite gender.
No, we’re legitimately concerned with “innocent” relationships turning into not so innocent ones, as tends to happen.
What about the positive mitzvah involved in helping someone? Isn’t that worth something?
Of course it’s worth something, nobody said or implied otherwise. Guarding against the yetzer hora also has a lot of value, though.April 18, 2018 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1508414
You gotta do Chesed, but not at a price of an aveirah.
We never said not to do Chesed, it’s about how you go about it….April 18, 2018 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1508449👑RebYidd23Participant
But you have to be careful not to go too far and leave someone stranded at the side of the highway because you don’t want to drive someone of the opposite gender.April 18, 2018 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1508513FarRockDadParticipant
היכי דמי חסיד שוטה כגון דקא טבעה איתתא בנהרא ואמר לאו אורח ארעא לאיסתכילא בה ואצולה
סוטה כ”א:April 18, 2018 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1508516GAONParticipant
“Unmarried boys and girls should be particularly machmir”
You seem to be contradicting the following passages of the Talmud:
(ייחוד דאורייתא דאשת איש, ואתא דוד וגזר אפילו אייחוד דפנויה, ואתו תלמידי בית שמאי ובית הלל גזור אפילו אייחוד דעובדת כוכבים. (עבודה זרה לו ב
אמר רב יהודה אמר רב באותה שעה גזרו על היחוד ועל הפנויה, יחוד דאורייתא הוא, דאמר רבי יוחנן משום רבי שמעון בן יהוצדק רמז לייחוד מן התורה מניין, שנאמר כי יסיתך אחיך בן אמך… אלא אימא גזרו על יחוד דפנויה.
(סנהדרין כא א )April 19, 2018 6:16 am at 6:16 am #1508647Avi KParticipant
It depends. On roads where there is traffic it is a petach patuach lareshut harabbim. Giving a ride to a married woman might be easier if her husband is in town. Someone who wants to be machmir can have his cell phone film the inside of the car (I know someone who does this to protect himself from blackmail), In some situations it might be a mitzva as the woman could be in danger if she stays outside by herself.
Yungerman, please cite Rav Moshe’s teshuva so we can see what was the exact situation he discussed.
Eli, once a man offered me a ride. I thought there was something on the front passenger seat so I sat in the back. He was very offended that I made him my chauffeur. I was also chided by one man for not closing the door enough after getting out and by another for slamming it and possibly causing damage. At the risk of going off topic, I will also add that a passenger, no matter who is the driver, should act with derech eretz. Do not eat or conduct cell phone conversations without permission (they annoy some drivers). Thank the driver and give him/her a beracha (e.g. “kol tuv”, “shavua tov”).April 19, 2018 6:20 am at 6:20 am #1508654
Source please re: R’ Miller & yaharog val yavor on this issueApril 19, 2018 8:15 am at 8:15 am #1508668avreimiParticipant
Let’s talk turkey here. All this talk about the yetzer hora and innocent encounters turning into something more sinister, just show how scared we are as a society. If you are talking about giving a pretty young lady [single or married] a ride, I hear what is being said but when a bubby is helped to get home faster with her shopping, the discussion is just ridiculous. Even with a pretty young lady, it really is a shame we always have to assume the worst, in terms of motive and outcome.April 19, 2018 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1508685Me12345Participant
I don’t know where it says these words “al yidaber sicha im haisha – don’t talk to a lady” but the reason is cuz regular chit chat can turn worse… I would imagine that giving a girl or lady a ride can fall into the issue of al yidaber sicha im haisha. There are always storys of a boy and girl on a date that started off with regular conversations and by the time they were getting married they wernt shomer nigiya anymore and I’m sure that they didn’t think it would be an issue for themApril 19, 2018 10:38 am at 10:38 am #1508715
@Avreimi this isn’t about being “scared”. You cannot put a stumbling block before the blind, it is assur for a man to get any enjoyment from a woman he is not married to. There’s many halachos and many rabbanim who have spoken about this, and in any situation I suggest you speak to your Rabbi and see what he says.
Most of the rabbanim I follow hold that you should not say anything unless it is for a purpose. Unnecessary chit chat breaks down boundaries. What is it’s purpose? Think about it. As a woman I should not and do not want to have any relationship with any other man that is not a relative. What is the purpose of talking if not to create a connection? For what do I need to have a connection with a random guy?April 19, 2018 10:38 am at 10:38 am #1508717
Penuyah in the time of the Gemara was a penuyah tehorah, i.e. not a Nidda. Nowadays our penuyos are all niddos and therefore the issur yichud is d’oraysa, just like an eshes ish. That being said, I don’t know why single girls would be worse, they should be the same.
On this topic generally, there is no halachic difference between going on a date and driving with someone of the opposite gender and giving them a ride outside of the dating context. If anything, the driving on the date has greater potential problems because of libo gas ba (after the first date or two) and because the context of dating lends itself to kalos rosh.April 19, 2018 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1508887
Benignuman: You’re of the opinion that you can drive your female neighbor or family friend, whether single or not, in the front passenger’s seat just as you would for a date?
Isn’t eishes ish a bigger issur than a nidda?April 19, 2018 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1508901
By the terms of objective halacha you certainly can (except in situations where it would be Yichud for a date too. E.g. on a dark side road in the mountains). However, if the tznius standards of your particular community are against the practice, then you should not be poretz geder.
Eishes Ish and Nidda are both issurei erva with a chiyuv kares. Assuming the Yichud is d’oraisa, they are both Y’horag v’al Yavor. The only difference is that Eishes Ish, with eidim and hasra, gets misas beis din and Nidda does not. But that difference does not effect the issur Yichud.April 19, 2018 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1508910
The statement you are referring to is in Pirkei Avos. But is אַל תַּרְבֶּה שִׂיחָה עִם הָאִשָּׁה. Don’t increase your speaking to a woman (or don’t speak to her a lot). Chazal were not saying that one should never talk to a woman but that one should not do it too much. Basic politeness (good morning, good evening, etc.) is certainly fine.April 19, 2018 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1508914
Wouldn’t an issur that carries misas beis din indicate it is a more severe issur than one that does not carry that most severe penalty?April 19, 2018 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1508915MenoParticipant
Basic politeness (good morning, good evening, etc.) is certainly fine.
I wouldn’t make a blanket statement like that.April 19, 2018 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1508932
Basic politeness (good morning, good evening, etc.) is certainly fine.
You know that’s how all the stories start of how frum nice girls end up in Arab relationships…April 19, 2018 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1508942GAONParticipant
“Nowadays our penuyos are all niddos and therefore the issur yichud is d’oraysa, just like an eshes ish.”
My point was it is certainly LESS than Eshes Ish – See Tosfot סנהדרין לז א
“התורה העידה עלינו סוגה בשושנים”
Tosfos clearly sates that it is less….April 19, 2018 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1508949
@yungerman123, Rav Moshe says in igros Moshe, chailek yoreh daya bet, siman 82 that, while ideally, when riding in a taxi, a married woman should bring her husband, if he is unable to come then she can still ride with a male driver due to the fact that he is busy with his work and wouldn’t want to ruin how reputation, in addition to the fact that mayikar hadin there is no yichud because there are lots of cars on the road.
In chailek even haezer 4 siman 65 sif 3, he says that in a shaas hadchak, like when someone and how female neighbor are going to the same place, or when a woman is hitchhiking on the side of the road, where if he doesn’t let her in she’ll say that he is צר עין ואכזרי, one can give the ride, because the only real issur would be if they go off the road and we’re not really concerned about that.
In both tshuvos, while he does stress that lichatcheela one should avoid the situation, he says that it is muttar mayikar hadin (in the yoreh daya tshuva, he says that issur yichud also would apply even if there’s only a chashash that they’ll violate lo sikrevu, which is lichora a chiddush).
There is also a story that I read about an Adam gadol who was niftar a few years ago, said over by a Talmid, that he was once driving and three girls wanted a ride, he considered the fact that even with three of them there is reason to be machmeer for yichud but ended up being maykil due to the גמילות חסד involved and the fact that Rav Moshe held that it’s muttar mayikar hadin if I remember correctly (the first part is definitely true, I don’t remember for sure that he also used Rav Moshe’s sheeta). Perhaps there’s a chiluk between giving a ride and taking a ride in terms of the considerations needed.April 19, 2018 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1508950Uncle BenParticipant
Shopping: I believe that most girls who wind up in Arab relationships come from dysfunctional homes. Nonetheless, constantly greeting female neighbors or co-workers can lead to kirvah and is discussed in the Rambam.
The concept of an office where men & women worked together was unheard of in the times of Chazal. If it was there is no doubt that they would have instituted precautionary guidelines for them.April 19, 2018 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1508951
@GAON, that tosfos is specifically talking about ishto needa, with whom yichud is muttar, and he’s giving a reason, someone you’re not married to would not have that kula.April 19, 2018 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1508952
Slonimer and Gaon,
Eishes Ish is a greater if one commits a capital crime. But with respect to the Issur Yichud, they are the same. According to Rashi, yichud by a niddah is learned out of yichud by an eishes ish.
That Tosafos is ambiguous. I could be that Tosafos is saying is that ishto niddah is more lenient because she will become tahor shortly, but a penuyah nidda remains asur mid’oraisa just like eishes ish. You can also understand Tosafos as holding that the yichud by a nidda is only d’rabbanan. But the Tur and Shulchan Aruch pasken that it is d’oraisa.April 19, 2018 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1508953
Meno and Shopping613,
When I wrote that it was certainly fine, I meant from a halachic perspective. I was no discussing what is ideal for chinuch or ones need to set up fences. Those depend on the community and the individual in question.April 19, 2018 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1508963
Depends who your Rabbi is and what Torah you follow.
None of this is black and whiteApril 19, 2018 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1508977
@benignuman, even from a halachic perspective, it isn’t clear that it’s certainly fine, the gmara in kiddushin daf70 says that Ain shoalin bishalom Isha and is quoted in shulchan aruch, even haezer siman 21 sif 6. One could argue based on the tosfos in kiddushin daf 82a deebur hamaschil hakol lishaim shamayim, which is quoted by Rama, siman 21 sif5, that it would be muttar nowadays, see also the Baer haitev there sif katan 9, who has a very interesting kula in the name of maharshal, also the last ritva in kiddushin who seems to say that it’s dependent on the person, one could argue that nowadays no one really has improper thoughts by a simple greeting because it has become the norm and then the ritva could be a blanket heter, but it may be somewhat subjective, which is a halachic consideration, so in conclusion, while perhaps limaase, in most situations you’re correct, if it can lead to something else, it’s assur mayikar hadin (that may be uncommon though) and from the sugya it is not pashut muttar, if going back to the gmara.April 19, 2018 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1508990
Chareidi kby soldier,
That is why I wrote “good morning” and “good evening” as examples and not “how are you.” The former two are certainly mutar, the latter is as you wrote.
It also seems to me that even without the Rama, according to the Shulchan Aruch it might only refer to genuinely asking how she is doing, not the perfunctionary “Hi, how are you?” that one uses when engaging it routine commercial speech.April 19, 2018 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1509001
@benignuman, the gmara in kiddushin daf 70 mentions the issur in reference to sending shalma to a married woman, I thought that referred to simple regards and the response was kol bieesha erva, which is very interesting, Rashi explains that if he sends regards, she’ll respond. We generally assume that kol Isha is specifically a singing voice, it could be that here it’s saying that any statement involving a level of closeness also qualifies, which may even be a simple greeting. Again, the societal setup in the gmara’s time was very different and there was far more separation, I’m not sure that they weren’t saying simple greetings between married women and other men are assur, because society has changed and we do this to be polite, it should certainly fall under hakol lishaim shamayim, but I’m not sure you’re correct about a greeting.April 19, 2018 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1509048
What I meant at the very end about not being sure about whether you’re correct about a greeting was that I’m not sure that the amoraim held it was muttar (but it would lichora still be muttar today) (this post might be redundant, but I just wanted to alleviate confusion that may have occurred due to my ambiguousness at the end of the previous post, I admit it wasn’t well written)April 19, 2018 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1509060shimenParticipant
if its assur then its’ mitzvah haboo beaveira’. remenber the torah is shulchen aruch not ‘boich svares’
leaning aven azer chapter 21 will helpApril 19, 2018 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1509095Midwest2Participant
The first principle here would be, “just have sekel.” If the woman is stranded, you definitely want to give/take a ride. And I don’t think that driving someone’s bubby to the airport is problematic. I also don’t think that today’s society is comparable to the times of the Gemara.
The bottom line: if you have doubts, ask your Rav, particularly if he’s older and has a lot of experience advising people in everyday life. He knows the halachas, knows you, and knows the circumstances of the community in which you live.April 20, 2018 8:06 am at 8:06 am #1509153Avi KParticipant
Soldier, he went through the whole sugya while driving? I heard from one of his talmidim that Rav Gustman was opposed to listening to tapes of shiurim because it would distract the driver. On the other hand, once a driver asked me to pay with a devar Torah. When I told him that he went into a whole pilpul about why it is really muttar .
As for the social situation now as opposed to in Chazal’s time, we see that saying “shalom” was so important that one could even interrupt keriat shema. Today that is definitely not the case. Yoram Gaon once said a monologue during a concert. He said that he wanted to know if people really cared about how he was doing. He went into a whole song and dance about his supposed troubles and people edged away.April 20, 2018 8:36 am at 8:36 am #1509171
Why the big discussion about rides? Why is this different than any other interaction between men and women which have halachic guidelines that are dependent on the details of the situation. Namely, relationship, purpose of interaction, and surrounding environment (i.e. presence or absence of other people)April 20, 2018 9:09 am at 9:09 am #1509186JosephParticipant
adocs: because in a car or vehicle you’re enclosed in a private room with just you and the passenger.April 20, 2018 9:24 am at 9:24 am #1509194
Chareidi KBY Soldier,
I have always understood that Gemara in Kiddushin to be Rav Yehudah testing/teasing Rav Nachman. Rav Yehudah keeps on finding halachic problems with what Rav Nachman is doing and Rav Nachman struggles to answer. But Rav Yehudah doesn’t mean that there is an actual issur, he was just trying to see if Rav Nachman would respond that kol b’isha erva is only about zemer or only niskaven l’hanos or only b’shas kriash shema (according to those Rishonim that understand it that way).
All that being said, the Rashba explains that gemara by saying that responding to a sheilas shalom is worse than regular non-zemer kol. In other words it is just a sheilas sholom by another name.
As evidence that simple talking is not asur even in the times of the gemara, I would present the hundreds of stories in Shas where Tannaim, Amoraim, and regular people talk to the opposite gender without any indication or comment that there was any issur involved.April 20, 2018 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #1509281Reb EliezerParticipant
The story of Bruriah who reprimanded Rabbi Yosei for saying some extra words to her when he asked the way to Lud. Eruvin 53bApril 20, 2018 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1509279
OK. So if a car in fact has the same status as a private room, it is subject to the same heteirim if relevant i.e. visible to the public and subject to the same restrictions regarding appropriate interaction between the genders.
My point is that there is no chiddush here regarding a car. Define its status in that particular circumstance and the Halacha is the same.
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