Getting a ride with someone from the opposite gender

Home Forums Inspiration / Mussar Getting a ride with someone from the opposite gender

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  • #1509284

    Joseph
    Participant

    Other than a moving vehicle, what other thing is fairly private, travels too quickly for pedestrians and other motorists to really see what’s happening inside another car while it is driving and/or travels on roads and highways that aren’t busy with pedestrians or others.

    #1509292

    arib
    Participant

    oh brother, you people are so frum, you dont understand one bit of halacha

    #1509295

    laskern
    Participant

    A woman stranded and who does not pick her up and let her sit in the back is a חסיד שוטה.

    #1509294

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Suppose you have a mechitza in the car?

    #1509370

    Toi
    Participant

    @arib- care to enlighten us, then?

    #1509371

    crgo
    Participant

    “My Rav said I should sit in the back, preferably directly behind the driver.”
    I’m kind of surprised about that because if I am ever in a car with a male driver other than my husband I davka don’t sit behind him cuz’ it’s awkward to be in the rear view mirror.

    #1509403

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m kind of surprised about that because if I am ever in a car with a male driver other than my husband I davka don’t sit behind him cuz’ it’s awkward to be in the rear view mirror.

    A passenger directly behind the driver is not visible.

    #1509407

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern, Beruria was being machmir. She also apparently did not like Gallileans as she called him a “stupid Gallilean”. Rav Kook would say that by being overly machmir in one area she fell in another (Avoda Zara 18b Rashi d”h v’icha d’amrei meshum maaseh d’Beruria).

    Joseph, if the car is moving fast how will the driver do something other than drive? Moreover, one never knows when one will run into a traffic jam, be stopped for some violation, etc.

    #1509412

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, it’s pretty easy for a driver to quickly or slowly go down a quiet road or pull over.

    #1509424

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, lo b’reshaim askinan. It is also pretty easy to lock a door.

    #1509425

    uknowwhatimsayin
    Participant

    but my chratzmach tree will be there. anyone have any other eitzos?

    #1509460

    Zev Tyler
    Participant

    That’s a big shaylah, ask your posek. :^)

    #1509857

    Toi
    Participant

    Avi K- B’yetzer hara askinan. Which is also why you need to have the door slightly ajar, not closed.

    #1509864

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, in addition to Toi’s point, driving (slow or fast) down a quiet road Waze sent you on, or being stuck in barely moving traffic, coming back from the airport after a red eye flight or whatever other reason or place, easily starts out with innocent intentions.

    #1509972

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    This morning I had to take a female paralegal with me to court in a city about 30 miles away.
    I solved the yichud problem by taking my convertible with the top down. Yes, she sat in the front passenger seat, this is no rear seat.

    My Rav approved of this method years ago.

    #1510009

    DovidBT
    Participant

    I solved the yichud problem by taking my convertible with the top down. Yes, she sat in the front passenger seat, this is no rear seat.

    What if it had been raining?

    #1510024

    benignuman
    Participant

    adocs,

    A car is unique for the following reason:

    Normally, in hilchos Yichud, one does not need to be choshesh that the situation will change (except for where Chazal were gozer to be choshesh). For example, if a man, his teenage daughter and a housekeeper are in a house, there is no Yichud because the daughter is matzil. We don’t say that we should be choshesh that maybe the daughter will go out with some friends. If that happens, then there will be Yichud, but until then there is no reason to worry.

    In a car, however, the situation inside the car can remain the same but the change of circumstances outside the car can render the situation Yichud. For example, a car with a dating couple driving in Woodridge would be fine because there are other cars and people about but that same car can then turn on to a small side road and it would be Yichud without anything changing inside the car. And since it is the norm for cars to move about from place to place, maybe we ought to be choshesh.

    Another issue is that the issur Yichud is rare in that it a d’oraisa that operates as fence for bigger isurrim. But what isur is Yichud meant to prevent, lo sikrevu or just the isur kareis? Driving in car makes an isur kareis unlikely but the likelihood of lo sikrevu is not reduced.

    I am not saying that you are wrong or that I disagree. I am just explaining why driving in a car is a harder shailoh than typical old-fashioned Yichud questions.

    #1510058

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @dovidbt
    If it was raining I would had the expense of two vehicles going, parking,. etc. BUT it was not an issue today.
    I live in reality, not theoretical when it’s time fr a case to be in court. Theoretical is for drawing contracts, not
    enforcing them

    #1510085

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DovidBT,

    What if it had been raining?

    In CTLAWYER’s town, rain only falls at night, when nobody is out driving. This was enacted by a town ordinance back in 1978.

    #1510086

    Avi K
    Participant

    Toi, it is a machloket if the door must be ajar.

    Beni (and Toi), the situation in a room can also change. The door can be closed. It can even be locked.

    #1510088

    Avi K
    Participant

    CTL, you two must be very hardy people considering weather there even without rain.

    #1510100

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @AviK
    45 degrees when we left for court, expected to be 60 when we leave. This is delightful weather for New England, definitely top down weather.
    Yesterday, I finially turned off the heat for the season.

    #1510108

    Meno
    Participant

    Yeah but the wind chill must be brutal

    #1510111

    benignuman
    Participant

    AviK,
    Absolutely, and we have established that we are not choshesh for the situation inside the room/building changing. The question is whether we are choshesh for the situation outside the room changing. With a car, internally it can remain the same but whether or not there will be a problem will depend on where the car is located.

    Once again, according to Rav Moshe and most other poskim, a car is not problem until it is on an isolated road. In other words, we aren’t choshesh that things will change until they actually change. I am just explaining the hava aminah.

    #1510324

    JJ2020
    Participant

    How do you keep your yarmulke on when driving in a convertible?

    Does everyone else like the idea of driving in a convertible with a girl in the passenger seat?

    #1510336

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @jj2020
    I wear a cap when driving, not just a yarmulke. No problem keeping it on if the side windows are up.

    #1510344

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    Avreimi- the issur yichud is the EXACT SAME if she’s a yong pretty woman or a 95 yr old great grandmother!!!!!!!

    #1510347

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Freddyfish: Maybe when you grow up, you will figure out why there is a difference in the real world inyan of yichud and how it applies in different situations. Until then, much hatzlacha in your black/white world.

    #1510353

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    Gadol hadora- I don’t know what you mean by “the real world inyan of yichud” I just try to follow halacha which doesn’t differenciate!!!!!!!!

    #1510352

    benignuman
    Participant

    Freddyfish,

    You are correct with respect to Yichud d’oraisa but not with respect to Yichud d’rabbanan and the willingness of morei horah and poskim to rely on kulos in given situations.

    #1510374

    Avi K
    Participant

    CTL, I was told not to put away my winter clothing until Shevuot – and this
    is in Israel. Sometimes Hashem surprises people – like snowstorms in April.

    JJ, when I was young driving in a convertible with the top down and a young woman in the passenger seat was what the “cool” guys did. Wearing a cap gave it a European flavor.

    #1510415

    Joseph
    Participant

    Benignuman: Where are you drawing the line between Yichud d’oraisa and Yichud d’rabbanan, how are you treating them differently and what kulos do you know of being dispensed in this area, for example?

    #1510433

    benignuman
    Participant

    Joseph,

    I am not sure what you mean by drawing the line. Yichud d’oraisa is only one man and one woman where there is an isur erva d’oraisa between them. Everything else is d’rabbanan.

    So, for example, Yichud with a non-Jewish woman is d’rabbanan. Many Rabbonim if asked a shaila about Yichud with a non-Jewish woman will look the reality of the situation and the danger of greater isurim before deciding whether to be rely on certain kulos. If the case is a 13-year old boy staying home with a 65-year old cleaning lady, they will be more meikel (and for sure if the boy is under 13). If the case is a 19-year old boy with a 25-year old cleaning lady, they will be more machmir.

    #1510596

    Avi K
    Participant

    Beni, the age of yichud for a boy with a woman who is bat mitzva is nine years and one day as that is when it is considered arayot. Regarding the elderly (and being that I am almost 64 I object to 65 being defined as elderly) see Yichud with an Elderly Man (online) that the determining factor is the man not the woman.
    Where one of the parties is a non-Jew then the ages up to bar/bat mitzva as Jewish children under those ages and non-Jews of any age are not obligated in yichud (Yichud — What, Where And With Whom
    by: Rabbi N. D. Dubov
    also online).

    #1510604

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Regarding the elderly… the determining factor is the man not the woman.”

    Why would it make a halachic (or practical, for that matter) difference whether the man is 55 or 80?

    #1510602

    benignuman
    Participant

    Avi K,
    You may have misunderstood what I wrote. I know the age is for Yichud for a man is 9 and a day. I used 13 because, as you noted, if the Jewish child is under bar or bas mitzvah and ther other person is a non-Jew, there is no one who has an obligation. However with a Jewish boy over 9 (and a non-Jewish adult female) we would/should still treat the situation as Yichud for chinuch purposes absent some grounds to be meikel.

    I never said that 65 was elderly. I wasn’t basing what I writing on the idea that one of them was incapable of further aveira. I was merely creating an example of a reality where coming to a more serious isur is unlikely and therefore Morei Horaah are more likely to be meikel if they can find grounds to do so. The particular kulah would depend on the particular facts of the particular situation.

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