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DaasYochid – The key word is “normal”. Who defines that? Certainly 50 years ago none of this was “normal”.
Vanguard was an example. I’m still earning 4% (and more) on Federal EE bonds, although I will grant you that 2% (or less) is more of the very recent norm (and everyone is looking to catch up, from life insurance companies to unions to the Federal Government). Alternatively, a shul can set up a fund so that they can leverage the larger amounts of cash flow.
Mammele – Why are all of these items an expectation of the couple, especially if their parents are struggling to put food on the table and a roof over their heads?!!!? That is (one of) the real question(s).
A jew who cares – Would they not be married if they make a wedding in their local shul, and bring in turkey sandwiches? Or a backyard wedding in the summer? Or the parents’ dining room? Why do we need to spend $50,000 (or even $5,000) on a five hour event that they can’t afford and have to beg others to pay for it?!!
And some kids would probably rather wait a few years than get married without anything, but we as a klall should discourage it, as it’s counterproductive and against Yiddishkeit as we know it.
Some children would also rather wait a few years than get married without life support in the bank, should we encourage that as well?
gaw – while you may or may not have some valid sub points, I think the diversion here is your repeated use of the word “beg”. If they “asked” for money, “raised”the money, “borrowed” the money or “applied” for the money would it still be bothering you so much?
I don’t think anyone can make a wedding in a shul with turkey sandwhiches without feeling degraded but I do agree with the silliness of much of what is done today. That being said, not everyone who “collects” money for their wedding is “begging”.
Syag Lchochma – Ein Lo Elah Mekomo V’Shayto.
1: It would bother me less if they didn’t expect it from the Klal, who has better things to spend money on. It would bother me less if they asked Rich Uncle Pennybags (from Monopoly), or applied for a loan from the bank.
2: None the less, that would still bother me, as the expectations of all involved (the parents and the couple) as to what a wedding and presents “have to be” is just not Yashrus (not when the parents are struggling themselves), and it certainly is not right to beg (or ask!) for the Klal to pay for your extravagances.
gavra_at_work,
The key word is “normal”. Who defines that? Certainly 50 years ago none of this was “normal”.
It sounds like you have a problem with the cultural norms, and that is fine. I think a lot of people agree with you. Is castigating the poor who ask for money so that they don’t feel inadequate due to these cultural norms really the best way to deal with the problem, however?
gavra: If you don’t want to give tzedaka, no one’s putting a gun to your head and forcing you. Don’t begrudge other Yidden who are benevolent and charitable and desire to give their Jewish brothers money to make a respectable wedding, even if you think something more than a backyard turkey dinner is lavish. If someone else wants to give another Jew money to make a fancier wedding and support their child’s living arrangements, don’t begrudge or complain about him giving. He’s giving his own money not your money.
I hear what you are saying, and while I agree with some of your premise, I don’t really agree with you(such as having “better” things to spend money on. I would bet we have very differing views on that one). What I meant to point out is that it seems to be hitting such a personal cord with you in regarding to the begging that the rest becomes cloudy. I do agree however, that seeing a “magiya li” attitude will spark that level of anger in myself as well.
On the other hand, just to throw this in, I have chosen to send my daughter to a very difficult college program that does not realistically allow her to hold a job and attend. Because of my unwillingness to use a tax loophole, we lose any fafsa opportunities even tho we cannot afford her program. We are using money we don’t have, borrowing, maybe even asking for help to get her thru this. And we need to get her a car (part of the requirements) and pay gas. If I cannot afford this, should I tell her to go find a job instead? If I ask friends for help (tho I never would) would that also be begging? Maybe she shouldn’t be going to college if we cannot afford it. Maybe she should just be happy at a minimum wage job forever and consider herself lucky for even having that.
I consider building a financial future for her to be a priority that I am willing to sacrifice for.
I feel the same way about building her personal future should she find the right one even if I cannot afford it.
So here we are, letting social pressure make us do crazy things and feeling degraded if we don’t.
Joseph – the point is that not everyone, not even the majority, are volunteering to give. People are asking others to give and then you would be actively turning someone down if you say no. That is not the same thing.
I kinda wish that we could all just go thru an application process to a major, huge hachnosos kallah fund who will distribute funds (no begging required) and will solicit funds as an organization. Wouldn’t that be awesome!
RebYidd23,
Yeah, those silly humans with their societies and all.
Avram in MD – These wouldn’t be the norms if the Klal would not support it. The best way to do it would be to have leadership, like Satmar does, and have the Kehilah pay for everyone, and severely tax those who want extra. Since that isn’t happening in the “Yeshiva World”, the only way to stop it (unless you have another idea) is to stop funding it, and use the money to support local Yeshivos (which is the Halacha in any case).
Syag:
1: YOU have the right to sacrifice, but don’t have the right to force or shame others into supporting your daughter’s schooling.
2: It is certainly arguable that teaching your daughter parnassah is a mitzvah. There is no reason why making a extravagant wedding, buying a $4,000 shaitel, and $2,000 straimel is a mitzva.
So here we are, letting social pressure make us do crazy things and feeling degraded if we don’t.
+1, and THIS is what needs to be changed.
If someone else wants to give another Jew money to make a fancier wedding and support their child’s living arrangements, don’t begrudge or complain about him giving. He’s giving his own money not your money.
If you saw another Jew not following Shulchan Aruch (YD 249), you wouldn’t say something!! I’m shocked!! You of all people should support what I’m doing.
DY: If you change the assumption to 1%, it is still over $10K.
gaw – this is obviously too hot of a button to discuss rationally. And I am super familiar with that feeling. I hear your responses to me and they are not quite answers to what I said, but rather to what you want to think I said. For example, I did not say buying a sheital was a mitzva. and nobody said a word about forcing and shaming others into supporting anything.
While i am NOT someone who asks for community funds EVEN THO i don’t make ends meet, I still dont agree that you can be so harsh toward those who are WANTING to help. Not everyone who asks for help is begging, and not everyone who gives help did so against their will.
Perhaps this conversation, for you, is like the pedophile conversations are for me. in which case i will respectfully bow out.
While i am NOT someone who asks for community funds EVEN THO i don’t make ends meet, I still dont agree that you can be so harsh toward those who are WANTING to help. Not everyone who asks for help is begging, and not everyone who gives help did so against their will.
If someone chooses to help (example, gives to a Chossan/Kallah fund), that is recognizing that the times require more than what is really needed. Those funds can then distribute as they see fit (which I personally disagree with, but do agree that it is still a mitzvah to help).
My point is more that it shouldn’t be this way, and funding the system only exacerbates the problem. When we ask why weddings are so expensive, and why everyone needs so much to get married, we need only to look in the mirror.
P.S. This is my general shittah, which is that Halacha (read: SA) requires almost all of the popular “Tzedakos” out there to be pushed aside in favor of funding local Yeshivos which children attend. I can reflect that in my own giving, but understand there are others who have asked Shailos of their Rov and understand differently. It is not specific to people asking/begging for weddings, Kollels, or Chai Rotel Mashke 🙂 (or anything else).
gavra_at_work,
the only way to stop it (unless you have another idea) is to stop funding it, and use the money to support local Yeshivos (which is the Halacha in any case).
No, I don’t think a Chinese style cultural revolution against lavish weddings would be very productive at anything except marginalizing an already vulnerable segment of our communities.
I do have other ideas:
1. Education – teach children the value of homemade goods, quality over quantity, counting blessings, and even modest weddings. That way, when they are getting married, they will desire and appreciate a modest wedding.
2. Go out of your way at a modest wedding to tell the bride and groom and the families how much you enjoyed yourself, and how beautiful everything was. Be earnest and honest.
3. Speak to your rabbi about the issue, maybe he’ll do or say something about it.
4. Speak to your friends about the issue. The more people hear it, the more “normal” it becomes.
5. If you have the merit of making a wedding, make it modest and be very open and proud about it. Even if you could afford something bigger.
“A jew who cares – Would they not be married if they make a wedding in their local shul, and bring in turkey sandwiches? Or a backyard wedding in the summer? Or the parents’ dining room?”
Yes they would, but if after your son gets engaged, the girl’s parents turn to you and say they are doing it in their dining room, would you be okay with it? Be realistic please!!
Why does the chasson need an expensive watch, and other gifts? Why do they need fancy Sheva brochos? Why do they need to invite 500 “close” friends?
When my daughter got married, the guest list was sharply limited to stay within budget, my daughter was happy renting a beautiful gown for $400 rather than spending thousands for a new one ( after all , she said that she wasn’t going to wear it again and people couldn’t tell ). Our machuten negotiated significant discounts for pictures,flowers and music and we didn’t go into debt.
As I said above, I’ve recently attended two weddings held in shuls. They were very nice and not expensive
Getting married required a “dowry” going back generations. And even Rivka Imenu received gifts of jewelry. Looks like the precedent has stood over time…
The reason couples expect all this stuff is because her mother most likely received all this when she got married and we live in a materialistic society where “must haves” are constantly increasing, realistic or not.
My grandparents and many others OTOH after the war, started from scratch — and in spite or even because of it they CHOSE to go back to how it was in parts of Europe pre-war and gave their kids jewelry, furniture etc. However, it was much more common for boys to work before marriage to pay for expenses, family size was probably smaller and rents were a pittance.
So here we are. The situation does need improving, no doubt. There is however a concept in Tzeddakah of giving according to the receiver’s standard, and blaming a father for wanting his kids’ happy and provided for when realistically the couple won’t be able to afford all this stuff in the near future is counterproductive.
Hachnasas Kallah is a mitzvah and if everybody followed your reasoning of which Tzeddakahs come first, even vital organizations like Hatzalah would be bankrupt — so there has to be some space for different POVs.
Rivka’s father-in-law was the richest man in the world, so that’s hardly an apt example.
Immigrants from Europe gave to their kids according to their means. Overspending to absurdity required an American hashpa’ah.
“There is however a concept in Tzeddakah of giving according to the receiver’s standard”
That depends on the circumstance. It means if someone’s luck has changed, he’s provided for at his original station in life. It doesn’t mean the community must provide lavish weddings for those who could never have afforded them in the first place just because they want them.
“blaming a father for wanting his kids’ happy and provided for when realistically the couple won’t be able to afford all this stuff in the near future is counterproductive.”
Actually, I think you’ve articulated a most productive approach. The parent should, rather than being a spineless jellyfish, have the guts to tell his kids exactly what’s been said here. Number one, you don’t deserve anything. You only get what you earn and what other people feel like giving you out of the kindness of their hearts. Number two, you don’t automatically get fancy apartments, vacations, ridiculous weddings, and beautiful furniture. Number three, if you’re working then you’re expected to pay for your own stuff and live within your means, and if you’re learning then basically you’re living off tzedakah and you have no right to expect more than the basic necessities. And if the kids don’t understand that then they are probably too immature to be married anyway. And if the kollel guy doesn’t understand it then he’s got real issues with the relative importance of learning vs gashmius.
Okay, okay.
#1. Maybe I wasn’t clear about the jewelry, and you’re right about not spending too much on it. I know we’re not all wealthy, but my point was that kallas were showered with jewelry since at least his time, with differing degrees of extravagance. And you’d be hard pressed to find a Kallah that forgoes all jewelry. It’s part of what makes the engagement exciting and shows the world (or her friends) hey I’m engaged to so and so. Not so much fun to say “and so and so doesn’t think I’m worth spending on.” I’d call that a community standard, which is A SIMILAR CONCEPT, not exactly the same, as providing so one can continue to live like one has before losing their wealth. Maybe I’m off base a little but it sure would be bushos, in our community, for a Kallah not to be able to show off. So it’s definitely Tzeddakah to spare her embarrassment. That’s where CZs, etc. may come into the picture to save money, and that’s a total new topic I’m not going to address now.
#2. I never mentioned vacations, extravagant weddings or lavish apartments. Besides for the gifts I was talking about basics which most of us have growing up – decent linen, pots and pans, dishes, clothes, and yes furniture. Not the most expensive or lavish still adds up when it comes to a wedding and setting up a new home. It’s a fresh start for the couple so you wouldn’t want her to walk around in her torn slippers etc.
#3. Most girls that work pay for part of the expenses, but it usually doesn’t cover enough. The reason, at least in my circles, all this is given is because after they’re married the couple is more or less on their own. And nowadays that’s hard enough EVEN WHEN a lot is provided beforehand. I’m not touching the Kollel debate.
So bottom line, if the parents, and you and me, have no furniture, dishes, linen, didn’t receive kallh jewelery etc. one can think of asking his child to do without. And not because the child is immature. Because it would be a very bitter pill to swallow, and most parents don’t want to hurt their kids like that. We want our kids to get married with a positive outlook, and for most of us mortals nice things, and a dirah nueh are helpful tools.
So I’m all for takanos and minimizing expenses, but I don’t see a wedding of rolls and salami in a shul anytime soon. Or a basement studio apartment with hand me down linen.
And I agree with you about American materialism creeping up on us, the question is how to curb it, not how to quit helping each other out financially.
End of rant…
Avram in MD –
No, I don’t think a Chinese style cultural revolution against lavish weddings would be very productive at anything except marginalizing an already vulnerable segment of our communities
So you accept the status quo.
A jew who cares – Truthfully, depending on the situation of the parents, I would be impressed. That being said, Ittisa (and the Shver) would probably pay more in to upgrade from turkey to pastrami, with Potato Kugel. 🙂
Mammele – You chose the “almost”, i.e. Pikuach Nefesh which comes before Yeshivos. So does Pidyon Shevuyim, and possibly paying for Yesomos to get married. Ayin YD 249. Shkoyach.
Your second post reflects a societal problem, that the poor Kallah whose parents and in-laws can’t pay tuition, have staggering credit card debit and feed the children at Kiddushim on Shabbos has the need to show off her diamond (1+ Carats only!), watch and bracelet to everyone, and is embarrassed if she can’t. Kollel (and yes, that has to be part of the discussion) only makes it worse.
And I agree with you about American materialism creeping up on us, the question is how to curb it, not how to quit helping each other out financially.
IMHO, it is not really Materialism, it is American Equality (part of the liberalism that our community has been co-opted into believing). The poor among us should not just be helped to get by, but should be raised to the level of everyone else who helps pay for it. This is not a Torah concept, but a bleeding heart liberal one.
The poor among us should not just be helped to get by, but should be raised to the level of everyone else who helps pay for it.
Do you really not see a difference between a chasunah in Torah V’yirah and one in The Palace? Do you really think all kallahs are getting the same jewelry?
More importantly, you can bemoan the state of our materialism, or your incorrect perception of bleeding heart liberalism (don’t you agree that “shelo l’vayesh mi she’ein lo” is a Torah concept?), all you want, but l’maaseh, if someone asks you for a donation so that a poor chosson can buy his kallah a diamond bracelet, or so that the caterer in Torah V’yirah can be paid, are you really going to refuse on principle, knowing that in fact, there might be embarrassment and bad feelings?
gavra_at_work,
So you accept the status quo.
Fallacy of the excluded middle. Just because I disagree with your draconian ideas doesn’t mean I fail to see a problem with the current situation.
The poor among us should not just be helped to get by, but should be raised to the level of everyone else who helps pay for it. This is not a Torah concept, but a bleeding heart liberal one.
Ah, so that’s what this is about. Does Torah inform your political views, or do your political views inform your views of Torah? In sefer Devarim (15:8), Rashi notes: ??? ???? ??: ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????. I don’t think anyone here is arguing that the community should make a poor man rich, or ensure that he has a lavish wedding, but rather a wedding that leaves him and his kalla with a sense of dignity. We can certainly state that our current societal standards are way out of whack and work to change them (I agree completely with that), but that’s not the poor man’s fault.
DaasYochid – Absolutely not. But how do I know that the wedding is in Torah V’Yirah (wherever that is) and not in the Palace (wherever that is. Ateres Avraham has been mentioned as a more expensive hall). How do I know that the money is not going to buy an apartment? How do I know that ….. Perhaps that is why Syag Lchochma’s suggestion is appealing, as the fund would only pay out if a minimalist approach is taken (CZ, no custom Shaitels, studio apartment, ikea furniture, etc.) .
I want to delve into a good point that you make. Shelo l’vayesh mi she’ein lo is certainly a Torah concept. However, it doesn’t say the Bas Melech traded with the Bas Ani. There are appropriately haves (and “have lesses”) in the Jewish world, and Chazal recognize as such. There is a minimal standard that should be met (the Gemorah Kesubos says 50 Zuz is appropriate). It is when a maximalist approach is expected, and children are embarrassed when they don’t have what Yenem has, and WE VALIDATE THEIR FEELINGS, then it becomes a non-Torah concept.
P.S. I did a google search for Torah V’Yirah and see it is Satmar. That doesn’t surprise me, as they have their heads screwed on right regarding issues like these.
Hey DY – sometimes its embarrassing to not have what everyone else has. This is because our society has made it embarrassing to be poor. And regardless of embarrassment, the couple will still get married. Ask 10 couples you know and they will surely tell you of a detail of their engagement and wedding that was painful. And that does not mean that they are not happily married! It hurts to be denied something that you feel is expected. I’m not gonna deny that. But life is not about comfort, it’s about struggle and overcoming challenges. Understanding your inlaws finances or your parent’s goes a very long way to achieving a real relationship.
The way to change this is grassroots, be open with your kids what you can and can’t afford. Sure, when you tell them that there will only be fruit and cake by the shmorg, or that the ring is only .75 carats then they will probably be a bit upset. You can’t change that. Engagement is a very “gimme gimme” time. You’re dropping thousands upon thousands of dollars left and right and it makes a young chosson kallah see opportunities. It’s not their fault, its the nature of the beast.
I’m asking for maturity. As parents you need to think in a nonselfish way, sometimes, doing what is not popular is best for you and your child in the long run. You may not make friends at first. Sure, everyone loves the parent who gives ice cream for supper and lets you stay home from school whenever you want. How many people love the parent who gives healthy food and insists “homework before playtime”?
As a shtell tzu, how many kallos love the inlaw who skimps on the diamond bracelet because they want to give the couple an extra 1000 as wedding money? Or just because, they have their own reasons why they won’t pay.
Trust me, its hard to show off a painfully obvious non-kallah bracelet…it’s very difficult. It’s shamefully difficult that friends make it so difficult. But I would never trade my husband for a 3000 dollar piece of metal and shiny pebbles. And when you look beyond the “what did they give me?” mentality, the inlaws and the parents are quite nice people with their story and struggles and love that they have for their children. People are always worth more than things.
Avram in MD – I’ll agree with your fallacy point, but you should recognize that any of your points will not make a dent into the problem. Perhaps there is a middle ground, see below.
I’ll also re-direct you to my recent post which discussed your (valid) concerns. I’ll also point you to “Rebbe Yid”‘s post which already deals with your proposed distinction.
who has money for newspapers? im saving up for a streimel.
You’re missing the point. B”h many of us live in a classless society. We are not, for the most part classified into rich and poor in our neighborhoods and live integrated. Most children don’t go to school with their parents’ bank accounts numbers displayed on their foreheads — I mean clothes. And many of our parents were better off than we are. So because of not really knowing who’s poor (I’ll concede, for the most part we know who’s really wealthy) maintaining the status quo is very much a requirement for the less well off among us to feel like mentchen. That’s why takanos etc. are so helpful although they smack a little of socialism. By bringing everybody’s standards down the klal ends up benefiting — even the rich guys who get less solicitations. That’s not the same as refusing to give or understanding that even when costs are brought down many will still need help.
And when someone comes to my door and asks for Hachnosos Kallah I don’t truly know what it’s going for, but someone collected for health reasons may also be using it for homeopathy which I don’t believe in. Haskomos help, but one still can’t be sure about the details and legitimacy.
When we don’t look too closely at who’s asking we hope that Hashem will provide for us likewise even if we may be undeserving.
“When my first child was born, my husband wanted to set up a “college fund” that we would contribute to, on a small basis, every month.”
There are couples who did not have money and paid the cheapest hall caterer, for the cheapest wedding, on the morning after the wedding, with the cash gifts given by the guests the night before. They went home after the wedding to an apartment that had a set of mattresses and a table and some chairs.
You can make a wedding in the gym of a local shul and have some start-up musicians and a start-up photographer. Who cares?
My feeling is that money does not have to stand in the way of marriage.
When we don’t look too closely at who’s asking we hope that Hashem will provide for us likewise even if we may be undeserving.
Nice concept, but that is not a Jewish one. From the Gemorah BB 9b:
? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? (?????? ??) ????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? [?????] ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???
Another one from the Rambam, also the Gemorah BB 7a:
??? ???? ?????? ????, ???? ??? ???, ????????–??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???, ??? ??????? ???? ???. ??? ????, ???? ?????–?????? ????? ??? ???? ???; ??? ??? ?????? ????–????? ???? ??? ????? ???, ???? ?????? ?????.
I was at an aufruf a while back which easily cost $40k. I really wouldn’t be concerned with the elaborate waste except that the person making the aufruf had borrowed from me just about that amount a year earlier(“for business”) and has recently told me that he doesn’t have the money to pay me back. Simply not normal.
Hey DY – sometimes its embarrassing to not have what everyone else has.
Agreed.
This is because our society has made it embarrassing to be poor.
No, it’s because it’s human nature to feel bad when you have less than most. As you wrote, “Trust me, its hard to show off a painfully obvious non-kallah bracelet…it’s very difficult.”, and I would hope that good friends would simply comment how beautiful it is, whether it’s got diamonds or not.
There is more than one perspective on this. There’s the valid point that our society has set even the minimum standard too high.
There is the perspective of the non recipient, who needs to set her/his priorities straight and appreciate what they do have, rather than focus on what they didn’t get.
My focus in this discussion, however, is from the POV of the potential donor, who, I would hope, when approached with a situation where one or both sides can’t afford to make a chasunah according to basic community minimum standards, will recognize it as a perfectly valid form of hachnosas kallah.
What would anyone here say about a wedding in the shul basement where the entire seudah is challah rolls and jarred gefilte fish, and the only jewelry is a gold wedding band (or who knows, maybe they can get a heter to use fake as long as it’s worth a perutah and she knows), and the kallah wears her nicest Shabbos outfit, and the music is from the chosson’s friend’s mp3 player and Bluetooth speaker?
Mammele – living “integrated” does not mean that the poor should spend like the rich, and certainly not that the poor should take Tzedakah to live like the rich. So I’m not understanding your point.
The halacha in tzedaka is that you give the person enough tzedaka to live up to their standards. If a rich person loses his fortune and is left with more money than a regular person but less than his standards, the halacha is to give him tzedaka to bring his lifestyle back up to his standards.
I would hope, when approached with a situation where one or both sides can’t afford to make a chasunah according to basic community minimum standards, will recognize it as a perfectly valid form of hachnosas kallah.
If:
1: Minimum community standards are minimalistic, and
2: There is oversight (both by Rabbonim and lay leaders) that the family is not using Tzedakah funds to go over that standard, either directly or indirectly
3: The standards are holistic, and cover things like apartment, jewelery, gowns/suits, furniture, etc., not just the actual wedding.
Then I would vote for not only valid (one can argue the Custom Shaitel is valid), but also appropriate. (it does not change the Halachos of Kedimah, though).
Rambam Matnos Aniyim 7:2. Note the last line.
??? ?? ???? ????, ??? ????? ???? ??–?? ??? ?? ????, ????? ????; ??? ?? ??? ???, ????? ?? ??? ???; ??? ?? ????, ?????? ?? ????; ??? ????? ????, ?????? ???? ????: ????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?????, ????? ???? ??????–????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????, ????? “?? ??????, ??? ???? ??” (????? ??,?); ?????? ??? ?????? ??????, ???? ??? ????? ?????.
GAW: my point is simple. If a kid grew up in a similar environment as his peers, had the same comforts and standards to varying degrees, attended similarly appointed FAMILY and community weddings, it’s kind of a slap in the face to tell this child: hey, you’re really poor and our credit cards are all maxed out.
So we’ll plan your wedding in the local Shul with salami sandwiches as the main course and no flowers etc. Your brother will play the keyboard or we’ll use recorded music, everyone will clean up after themselves, and to make it simple we’ve arranged for a one room attic above the Shul for you to live in. The rent is lower, so you’ll put away $100 a month to slowly furnish it (babies? Why worry about that interfering before long…) and meanwhile use some sukkah boards to make temporary furniture. Oh, and you can borrow linen until you buy your own, and luckily for sforim there’s a Shul downstairs.
That’s more or less how it used to be when the rich and poor were separate entities. That line is blurred.
Mammele, it seems gavra is fine with that, based on point #1 to me, above.
Mammele – if the child hasn’t seen it coming, then that means they still have. If he has seen it coming (e.g., there are no Shabbos seudos at home because they eat at kiddushim, there is no heat in the house, rain and mice are running through the home and it is in forclosure due to non-payment of property taxes), then it is expected (or he could get a Job and be responsible for himself, Chas V’Shalom). Besides, you should pay the electric bill and taxes before buying the Kallah a Rock (AYLOR). The slap is only if it is a shock, and then yes, Dei Machsaro applies (as he had more).
Your use of an extreme does not help your case.
+1 DY and Mammele
A, instead of focusing on what standards people should keep (though I certainly agree that people should stay within their means), why doesn’t someone figure out a way to lower expenses allowing people to save up to cover the wedding costs by themselves?
B, if the kallah’s gifts are being tossed out of the budget, does the chosson get to borrow a tallis from shul every day?
C, It may not require turkey sandwiches in the shul basement, but maybe doing a buffet for the meal is an option to consider. Some Sefardim do it and no one seems to complain much. And I realize bentchers are not a major cost, but maybe halls can have some generic bentchers available instead of the family ordering it. It’ll save some room from someone’s basement too. And how much sense does it make to spend three thousand dollars on a vort? (For a simple vort, plus extras like clothing.)
DaasYochid – Ain Lo Elah Mekomo V’Shayto. I don’t know what would be “minimalistic” in your community. A piece of chicken (which is cheaper than Salami), some veggies on the side, and a starter of soup in a Shul or Yeshiva (that can be dressed up for the occasion) and a Yeshiva guy playing on his keyboard (or canned on borrowed speakers) would qualify as “minimalistic” where I am, where you are it may be more (or less), I don’t know.
kapusta – Talaisim are cheap (less than $50 on worldofjudaica.com). Besides, it is for a mitzva, vs. a Rock.
Kapusta,
A) Costs have been reduced, and for a typical “yeshivish” or chassidish chasunah, there’s not much more to cut, short of what Mammele described.
B) A tallis is not exactly a luxury, nor a great expensive.
C) Again, depends on what’s expected. It’s not correct to expect something which would be embarrassing. I’m also not sure it would save a lot. I’m kind of with you on vorts. I really wish we could do away with those, but again, you can’t ask a poor chooson/kallah to be the trend setter.
The halacha is you give a person tzedaka according to their standards. If they need housing and he’s used to living in a mansion, you give him tzedaka to live in a mansion. If a mansion surely a nicer wedding.
Of course I was using an extreme but unfortunately that’s close to what many families can afford without getting into more debt. They’ll use whatever means possible so it shouldn’t come it to that including “collecting” which you malign. I took the liberty to color the situation a little for illustrative purposes, so you can see what you’re essentially advocating if asking for help is a no-no.
And the child probably knows theoretically where the family stands financially, with the parents stressing anytime an appliance breaks etc. but most likely they didn’t grow up deprived and hungry (food stamps maybe?) or missed out on class trips.
Your premise about mice running around, eating at Kiddushim foreclosing etc. is totally off base and exaggerated as very many families barely get buy without resorting to such a life AND YET CAN’T AFFORD A RESPECTABLE WEDDING, DECENT GIFTS AND TROUSSEAU FOR CHILD AFTER CHILD.
Joe, you didn’t see the Rambam I brought just for you? Also, do you agree with me regarding Halachos of Kedimah?
DaasYochid – We might be in a similar place:
1: Standards are way too high
2: That being the case, we still need to raise money as not to embarrass a Chasan and Kallah from having the minimum.
3: What the minimum is depends on location, but it is significantly less than what is “standard”.
4: The Minimum is still too high, but that is for a different time, not for the Chasson in front of us.
5: There should be controls in place that if one is taking communal funds, that they not be frivolously going above the minimum without a real need as judged by outsiders (not the families)
6: This (except possibly for Yesomos) does not affect the Halachos of Kedimah, where Pikuach Nefesh, Pidyon Shevoyim, or Yeshivos have priority.
P.S. Have Vorts moved outside the home so that they became a large expense? Almost every vort I attended for family (except on Succos where they needed a larger space), even in Brooklyn were in the girl’s dining & living room.
I realize a tallis is not the cost of a ring, but I’m just wondering where the line is drawn. As Mammele mentioned, it would be pretty bad for a kallah not to have a ring/bracelet to show off (not that I like that idea, but anyway) and a lukewarm “oh… it’s nice…” wouldn’t be too far off from that… Where does the Shas fall (and does it make a difference if he’s working or learning)?
DY, I was referring to routine family expenses, not wedding costs. Tuition aside for the minute, if there were a way to lower food costs, camp, school supplies/uniform, clothing/shoes (at least for young kids), tefillin/tzitzis etc that would definitely add up. Some of these are available to certain people at a lower rate, but not across the board. (Now you can tell me hachnosas kallah is a higher level than school supplies).
Agree 100% on the third point. Vorts do seem to be going away, if ever so slowly. And for something that seems to have a lot of downsides to a possible few benefits, this not yet kallah would love to be a trendsetter…
Edit: gavra, vorts can be anywhere from “extended l’chaim” to hall with hot food and music +. To play a slight devils advocate, a vort at home is not always feasible depending on setup, timing etc.
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