January 24, 2013 1:29 am at 1:29 am #607927
Let’s say you want the boy to say NO, is it a good idea to deliberately do/say something that will make it happen?January 24, 2013 1:32 am at 1:32 am #972059
No. That is not acceptable.
Say no yourself.January 24, 2013 2:11 am at 2:11 am #972060rebbi1Participant
torah- thats a great idea if you want the world to know what you did. Boys talk among themselves and you might get a reputationJanuary 24, 2013 2:13 am at 2:13 am #972061
I am not clear on what you are asking. Are you (the girl) trying to get the boy to drop you, or are you someone who doesn’t want a certain boy to agree to go out with a specific girl? In either case, it is not acceptable to be passive aggressive. Be forthright and honest in your dealings.January 24, 2013 2:23 am at 2:23 am #972062gregaaronMember
Not a good idea.
???? ???? ??? ??? – no matter what people may want/think, stories (and reputations) get around.January 24, 2013 2:29 am at 2:29 am #972063
Let’s assume, completely hypothetically, that you are feeling pressured into this date in the first place. Can you start an argument or davka disagree on something in order to later be able to say we had hashkafic differences?January 24, 2013 2:35 am at 2:35 am #972064
I must agree with Yoelite… It might also give you a bad name. That being said, If you have concerns about your differences there is nothing wrong with highlighting those differences. If that pushes him to say no, that’s his call.January 24, 2013 2:43 am at 2:43 am #972065
Absolutely unacceptable. If you want to break up, you need to just say so. It is unfair to play with people’s emotions like that.
If you don’t have the guts to say no, you aren’t ready to date.January 24, 2013 2:48 am at 2:48 am #972066
I think you’re all imagining me doing something terrible. I do have a sense of self-preservation! And I do want to get married. So it wouldn’t be anything that wouldn’t sound perfectly normal to the people involved.
To give a totally random example: Let’s say davka disagreeing about a certain hashkafic point. For example, if he said he’d hypothetically vote for Otzma, you’d say Bayit Yehudi. When you really don’t care that much and would do whatever your husband wanted once married, but you don’t like this boy so you make a little bit of a discussion about it, preferably giving one concrete detail that you can figure he wouldn’t agree with. Would this be ethical?
I think it’s also saving the boy from being too interested in me. It’s doing him a favor. But it seems you all agree that this is a bad idea, so I’ll hypothetically just be nice and spend an hour trying to find ways to explain to the shadchan why not for no apparently good reason.January 24, 2013 2:49 am at 2:49 am #972067
I would like to add that this would only be on a first date!January 24, 2013 2:50 am at 2:50 am #972068
I don’t think we know what the question is anymore. Originally you asked about where “you want the boy to say no”. Now you seem to be changing it. Why don’t you open a new thread and ask the question how you want.January 24, 2013 2:54 am at 2:54 am #972069
Sorry PBA, I have a quota of one stupid thread I want to start per day. And this happens to be a completely hypothetical question, based on bits and pieces of mine and a friend’s reality.
Let’s say you hear of a boy, there are pressures to say yes, and you want to say no. It’s the same question.January 24, 2013 2:59 am at 2:59 am #972070
That would be a third question, actually.January 24, 2013 3:03 am at 3:03 am #972071
Just say no? Or go on the date, act normally, and then say no (if you are still convinced that it’s a no)?
Why aren’t these options?January 24, 2013 3:33 am at 3:33 am #972072
I’m with OOM… why aren’t those viable options? You can’t be forced to date or marry someone you don’t want to. If you are doing it just to make the shadchan happy, which is a different point of debate on it’s own, then just buck up and bear through one date and then say he isn’t what you want in a husband and explain why. It can help the shadchan hone in on what you want better.January 24, 2013 4:03 am at 4:03 am #972073
OOM and Curiousity, there are social reasons I would have to say yes. Let’s say the boy called every single one of my references and convinced them that he is good for me.January 24, 2013 4:29 am at 4:29 am #972074
I think I hear 613a’s point (the a is so that you’re not just a number).
Saying no can be detrimental to shidduchim because it might alienate the shadchan who thinks you’re too picky. If the boy says no, if anything, the shadchan might feel bad for you and try to find a suitable match.
The trick is to find an ethical way to do that. I don’t like your proposals also far.January 24, 2013 4:37 am at 4:37 am #972075
Then he would be have already displayed some serious issues, and there really wouldn’t be any use covering for him. Plus, he isn’t your responsibility at that point, so I see no need to help him out. The only viable damage control would be in fact to say no and not involve yourself further.
This is presupposing that the reason you must say yes and the reason you want to say no are one and the same – seeing as we still need the latter to figure out what the heck’s going on.January 24, 2013 4:59 am at 4:59 am #972076
I’m still with OOM…January 24, 2013 5:01 am at 5:01 am #972077
DaasYochid: What’s the point in doing that? If you have a valid reason for saying no, I don’t see why the shadchan could reasonably call you picky – and who wants to leave their future in the hands of an unreasonable shadchan? And there is always the consideration that you are being unreasonable in saying no so quickly – in which case, you need to reevaluate. In any case, I don’t see why one would have to go about finagling the boy into saying no.January 24, 2013 5:03 am at 5:03 am #972078Veltz MeshugenerMember
This is a terrible idea. I know someone who did this, and while he was doing all kinds of terrible things to get the woman he was dating to dump him, she was doing the same to him. They were unsuited before they each decided to induce the other to dump them, so you can imagine how bad it got when they were both being deliberately awful. Neither would capitulate, and eventually, there was no choice for them but to get married. It was the worst wedding I ever went to. Pictures dragged on for hours, the main course was served during the first dance, and they barely had a minyan for the sheva brachos. Fortunately they moved to a state that allowed for no fault divorce.January 24, 2013 5:58 am at 5:58 am #972079
I think I will forever regret not having written that story.January 24, 2013 6:00 am at 6:00 am #972080
psshhhh…that’s a compliment of the highest order, Veltz – I suggest you take it and run. ^_^January 24, 2013 6:30 am at 6:30 am #972081
I didn’t say I like it, but it’s the reality. And I still think it shouldn’t be done, I just understand why one would want to.January 24, 2013 6:37 am at 6:37 am #972082
bahhhhhhJanuary 24, 2013 6:40 am at 6:40 am #972083
Sure, and I understand why people would want to kill people and steal their money and wives.
DY: You could just as easily say that people would want to do it because it is uncomfortable to be the one saying no. That’s no less or more of a good reason than not wanting to appear picky to the shadchan.
If I thought someone was doing this to me, I would tell every shadchan I know and every friend of mine about it. It would be l’toeles.January 24, 2013 6:51 am at 6:51 am #972084
popa: People who are comfortable manipulating people because they are uncomfortable saying “no” need to find a new comfort zone, fast.January 24, 2013 7:09 am at 7:09 am #972085
Sure, and I understand why people would want to kill people and steal their money and wives.
This is probably not as bad.
You could just as easily say that people would want to do it because it is uncomfortable to be the one saying no.
that people would want to do it because it is uncomfortable to be the one saying no.
You’re right, just as easy. But that’s pure weakness of character, whereas not wanting the shadchan to think you’re picky is practical, if you want them to redt you more shidduchim.
If I thought someone was doing this to me, I would tell every shadchan I know and every friend of mine about it.
That’s another good reason not to do it (especially since you never know, it might be Popa). I think being unethical (the reason I gave) is good enough, though.January 24, 2013 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #972086
Let’s say there ARE pressures to date a specific person. There will always be pressure in life to do something you might not want to do. If it is something truly distasteful to you and not something you HAVE to do (like get immunized against something, or go to the dentist), you grin and bear it. Life will throw all sorts of unpleasant things our way. We grow up when we learn how to deal with these situations gracefully.
If a girl does not want to go out with a boy, she should say so. Period. If she never went out with him to begin with, she should give it a chance. If he is not for her, she can say no to another date. If she is too shy/immature/thoughtful (note that I am factoring in the idea that she simply doesn’t want to hurt his feelings) to be able to say “no” then she has to learn how to do so. It’s called being an adult. And btw, maybe HE doesn’t want to go out with her again anyway. NEVER be obnoxious on a date. It will come back to haunt you. Guys talk. Worse than girls, sometimes.January 24, 2013 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #972087
It’s okay people, this was a random option that occurred to me, I discussed it, it’s done. I will just be super polite on dates and say no, as I always have. (In any case, I am never obnoxious, period.)
My friend did this once on a first date when she first started dating, the guy had already managed to scratch 2 people’s cars, and was a bit socially off. The funny thing is it completely backfired, he apparently enjoyed the argument and she later had to date him again because he insisted he’d changed since the last time and spoke to many people who knew her. No, she did not marry him.January 24, 2013 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #972088
Oh, and let’s flip the story.
If I found out a guy had done this to my sister–I would round up my brothers and hunt him down and give it to him the old fashioned way.
And tell everyone in the world.January 24, 2013 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #972089
DaasYochid – thanks. I think you get the situation better than the others here. Not every shadchan is open to hearing reasonable excuses, and particularly if that shadchan occasionally comes up with someone shayach, it takes some brainstorming to skirt the issue without sounding picky.January 24, 2013 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #972090
I don’t think DY’s scenario makes it any better. All it changes is the motivation to do these tricks.
But having a “good” motivation doesn’t really help. It is wrong to play with someone else’s emotions to advance your interests even if those interests are to not look picky.
You are dealing with another person, who is being nice to you, and considering marrying you, and is emotionally involved in the affair. Manipulating the other for your gain is very wrong, and I am shocked at DY’s laissez faire attitude about it.
I have a better idea: tell the guy on the date, that you want to say no, but that you don’t want to look picky. Don’t worry, he’ll say no for you, and drive you home right then and there.January 24, 2013 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #972091dotnetterMember
I’ve heard of this concept of trying to get the other to say no, but mostly from guys. They don’t always want to say no since girls take a no very personally and many girls will be hurt by a no.
Guys are made of tougher stuff – they can handle a no gracefully. Don’t worry too much about him and JUST SAY NO. There is nothing worse than going out and sensing from the start that your date is completely not interested in you. Waste of time, waste of money.January 24, 2013 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #972092
PBA, I actually like that idea, but I’ll have to run it by some people in real life to ensure that it won’t have any complications.
For those like me who only read the last 3 posts of a topic:
To sum up, this would be a bad idea, and if you do it, Popa will never date you, plus he’ll ensure no one he knows will ever date you either. Don’t do it!January 24, 2013 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #972093WIYMember
I totally get your dilemma and this similar thing happened to a male friend of mine who is now BH happily married. He dated a girl who on paper seemed to be everything he was looking for. She really was a good girl and what not but the feeling wasn’t there. He had to say no but had nothing to pin it on. We had a long discussion about it and in the end we came to the conclusion that he just has to stick to his guns and say the chemistry was off. He told me that the Shadchan didnt want to take that as an answer. He really had to keep asserting himself that she is just the wrong one. Its amazing. Had he said he finds her boring or unattractive….she would have taken that no in a minute, but no chemistry which is the most valid reason to say no she would not accept without him being firm about it. So there may be some resistance from the Shadchan you should ne ready to be firm about your no and don’t be sweet talked into another date.
HatzlachaJanuary 24, 2013 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #972094
Right! And if you do it to his sister, he will kill you.January 24, 2013 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #972095WIYMember
What are you referring to I think I missed one crucial post here…January 24, 2013 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #972096
WIY, thanks for your post. I will be firm when/if the issue comes up.
Unrelated rant: This is what’s annoying with shidduch dating. Everything I say has to go through me/my mother the shadchan the boy/mother. And it has to make sense to all parties. Sometimes I wish I could just tell the boy what I think directly.
DY – thanks for not calling me a number. There are lots of 613’s here. I forgot to respond to that before.January 24, 2013 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #972097
Torah613613Torah – You say you sometimes wish you could just tell the boy what you think directly. You can. And you should. The shidduch norms today, and their protocals, have taken something very precious away from young men and women, in my humble opinion; the ability to express themselves directly and as adults. If one is old enough to be getting married, one is old enough to speak DIRECTLY to the party involved, and not go through all these shlichim.
BTW, what one says through someone else can be misinterpreted, twisted, exaggerated, or fabricated (albeit, one would hope, unintentionally). It’s always better to speak for yourself. Look what happened with Miles Standish.January 24, 2013 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #972098dotnetterMember
Go for it Torah613, there is nothing wrong with being open and direct.January 24, 2013 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #972099Ich bin ein BerlinerParticipant
It makes no difference. Nobody will ever care. Every lies and denies everything anyways.January 24, 2013 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #972100
Manipulating the other for your gain is very wrong, and I am shocked at DY’s laissez faire attitude about it.
I’ll take that as a compliment.
I did say it’s unethical. You obviously think it’s much worse than that, but I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. I am not talking about someone acting obnoxiously, only what t613t was referring to, making it appear as if there’s a difference in hashkofah. The goal, I assumed, was that both parties would tell the shadchan that it’s not a good match, rather than than it being a unilateral “dump”. I would think that the dumped party, not knowing they were dumped, would actually be spared the insult which inevitably, if undeservedly, results from being dropped.
Acting obnoxiously is almost never excusable. Except calling someone fat. 😉January 24, 2013 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #972101ShiraTobalaMember
tell the shadchanJanuary 24, 2013 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #972102
dotnetter and WIY: There’s a difference between someone feeling reluctant saying no to someone they are currently dating, and someone choosing to date someone with the intention of manipulating them into saying no, to look good for the shadchan.January 24, 2013 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #972103
I don’t mean to be condescending, but I think you should take it back.January 24, 2013 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #972104
Ok, I take it back, it is ethical. Is that better?January 25, 2013 1:08 am at 1:08 am #972105
DY is explaining my position far better than I could at the moment.
Nevertheless, I wouldn’t do it because I believe shidduchim come from Shamayim and my hishtadlus is to always tell the truth and not mislead people. In this case, this would cause me some wasted time, but that’s worth it for me to be a person who is honest.
But I agree with DY that it is not really unethical, and I wouldn’t judge someone else who did this.January 25, 2013 1:14 am at 1:14 am #972106
(facepalm)January 25, 2013 1:22 am at 1:22 am #972107
It’s interesting that there are two distinct groups of responses here. My hypothesis is that if you ONLY do shidduch dating, you think that this is an okay thing to do.
If you’re a bit more liberal, and occasionally date in ways that are out of the box, but usually use the system, you think it is not great but understandable.
If you occasionally use shidduch dating, or are very involved in the dating process, than thinking of the reactions of 4 different parties is a bit strange to you, and of course it’s a horrible idea because any ethical person would just be honest.
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