Girls learning Gemorah??

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  • #599287

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    This topic must of come up before but I couldn’t find any thread that dealt with it. This is one of my pet peeves that I can’t understand and would appreciate if someone enlighten me on this subject.

    As far as girls are concerned, they are not mechuyav in limud hatorah for the sake of learning. However, they are mechuyav in learning for the sake of knowing what to do, say, or think about that concerns yiddishkeit, whether Halacha Lemaaseh, Hashkofah, or basic chumash. Am I correct? Am I wrong? Does their chiyuv go further?

    Must Bais yaakov girls learn all the meforshim of chumash?? My sisters learned chumash with Rash”i Ramban Kli Yakor Abarbenel Ohr Hachayim just to name a few. Then they learn Novi, which is fine in my opinion. But to learn it Be’Iyun (in depth)??! With aaaalll the meforshim.

    Yesterday my sister got copies in class of a page in Gemorrah?

    What is the chiyuv for a girl/woman as far as learning is concered? And what is the justification for schools to teach this to girls?

    #810296

    Wow! All that and college too so they can support their husbands in learning. You know, maybe part of the “shidduch crisis” is that the boys want to be smarter than their wives and there are too few girls that they are smarter than.

    #810297

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, it is off the wall.

    Still, girls today are not happy with just cooking dinner, they want something intellectual. So why should they go find it in science or whatever- they may as well see that the Torah is intellectual.

    #810299

    mytake
    Member

    Anyone read the Binah last week? (or maybe it was the Family First..?) Anyway, there was an article in it about this.

    One interviewee said something like this: It used to be that women barely knew how to read hebrew. But they knew how to daven. Today, many women and girls can translate nearly every word in the siddur/tehillem (and quote meforshim on each posuk) but they don’t know how to daven.

    I believe that the schools are in competition with each other to see who can have the most intensive in-depth textual studies program. And it doesn’t help that to keep up with the seminary programs you have to be at that level of learning.

    A school that focuses of halachos pertaining to women and girls, hahskafa, and Chumash, Nach, Tehillem, Pirkei Avos-WITH A FOCUS ON THE HASHKAFA ASPECT OF LEARNING, not just to cover more meforshim, is viewed as second-rate.

    #810300

    Obaminator
    Member

    Yes, it is off the wall as popa said. And a desire for “intellectual stimulation” shouldn’t override Shulchan Aruch.

    #810301

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    why should they go find it in science or whatever

    Because science is like a piece of jewelry for a woman, as the Talmud relates:

    ??? ???? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?? – ??????? ??? ?:?

    #810302

    Abelleh
    Participant

    Why shouldn’t everyone study science?

    #810303

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Because it’s bitul Torah.

    #810304

    collegegrad
    Member

    I went to a BY sem and occassionally we got photo copies of sheets of gemara. We did not “learn” the gemara. The teacher just gave us the sheets so we can see the 3 sentences inside. There is no Tosfos and Rashi going on. Also, I heard that in the very chassidish girls schools the girls are not taught anything inside – not even chumahs and navi.

    #810305

    Abelleh
    Participant

    It may be bitul Torah if you learned science while you were supposed to be learning gemara. Just as it would be bitul Torah to shake lulav while you’re supposed to be learning gemara.

    If you are not engaged in Talmud Torah, studying science is a kiyum of the mitzvah of ahavas haborei. You can come to love hashem by seeing just how amazing his world is. You can see the quantum-complexity of an electron cloud to the biological harmoniousness of the human body. This is a mitzah miduarrisah.

    #810306

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    mytake: Anyone read the Binah last week? (or maybe it was the Family First..?) Anyway, there was an article in it about this.

    No, I did not read it. Was there an explanation from a Mechanechess? I’d like to understand their mehalech from their perspective

    #810307

    yovel
    Member

    Rambam clearly indicates that it’s permitted for a girl to learn Gemara and that she is even rewarded for doing so (though not as much as a man). It’s forbidden, however, for a man to teach Gemara to a woman.

    #810308

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Yes, but why aren’t you engaged in Talmud Torah? You finished it? You’re in the bathroom?

    #810309

    mytake
    Member

    collegegrad

    The only chassidishe girls school that is not taught anything inside is Satmar.

    #810310

    Queen Bee
    Member

    I loved learning Chumash and Navi in school. They were my favorite subjects (other than algebra). But learning every meforash is a little too much, IMO. Just rashi, maybe a few others is enough. I’m not in school anymore, but I still try to learn Chumash and Navi with rashi every week.

    #810311

    chanie
    Member

    That girls are inundated with every Rashi, Ramban, Kli Yokur etc. reminds me of the story years ago when 2 girls from BJJ went to the Steipler Gaon for explanations to certain Ramban’s. His reply: “Do you know how to make potato kugel”?

    #810312

    Sam2
    Participant

    See my comments in the “I wish I could be a Talmuud Chacham” thread.

    #810313

    Abelleh
    Participant

    yitayningwut: I don’t know of anyone personally (except my Roshei Yeshishiva) who are actually learning every second they have. For example, instead of posting on the Yeshiva World you can read about psychology or math or history on wikipedia. Or when talking to a friend, which isn’t a Torah conversation (which happens all the time; no one can properly deny this) it’s better to talk in chochma than in nonsense (see Rambam Hilchot De’ot, perek beis halacha dalet)

    #810314

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Abelleh-

    Ok, but when you wrote to “study” science I assumed you meant ???????.

    #810315

    Abelleh
    Participant

    I don’t think anyone (save a few Torah U’Madda fanatics) would say most people need a Phd level understanding of anything (unless it’s for a profession). I think a basic college level understanding of the 7 Chachmos Haolam (as defined by the Rishonim) is plenty.

    #810316

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Why isn’t college bitul Torah?

    #810317

    bpt
    Participant

    Its bad enough they earn more than their husband, now you want them to out-learn them too?

    What’s next.. wearing pants? (oh, sorry.. they already wear the pants).

    #810318

    Abelleh
    Participant

    The same reason shaking a lulav isn’t bityl Torah. Some things need to be done. Most people will tell you that learning science is a kiyum of ahavas haborei, which is a mitzva duariessah. I don’t really see how being mekaim a mitzvah could be bitul Torah.

    #810319

    RSRH
    Member

    Abellah: Unfortunately, you’ll find a lot of people who sat being mikayem a mitzva is bittul Torah – training for a parnassa is bitul Torah, making a parnassa and supporting your family is bittul Torah, kiruv rechokim is bittul Torah, I could go on.

    #810320

    ark
    Participant

    abelleh, lets face it, learning science is only a mitzvah if you do it and keep in mind what you learnt in order to think about hashem. for 90% of the people that isnt happening, so you cant start telling everyone – -learn scince its a mitzvah d’oraisah.

    so as a rule, learning science is bitul torah. besides, once you get technical with all the scientific info most people wont even equate that with “niflaos haboreh”. and according to you – -playing ball is also a mitzvah d’oraisah, which i agree it could be if it is needed. but i definitely wouldnt go out to everyone and say – -play ball, its a mitzvah d’oraisah!

    dont push your agenda for secularism

    #810321

    brotherofurs
    Participant

    We learn in depth chumash and navi and its soo much better than when we only did Rashi, i feel like now i really gain from learning it because there are many lessons to take out of everything.

    #810322

    Queen Bee
    Member

    One of my high school teachers told us that girls can take on any guy in chumash and navi.

    #810323

    Abelleh
    Participant

    ark: Sorry if I gave of the impression I was pushing some sort of agenda… I just follow the Rambam, Ramban, Meiri, Malbim, Megilat Esther, Aruch LaNer , Ramah, Sforno, Rav Hirsch, Rogatotchaver, Chazon Ish, Rav Yosef Dov, Rav Shacter, Rav Willig, Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Twersky, Rav Aharon, and all the other gedolim who believe that science has value, but you and everyone els can of course disagree with them.

    Actually, it is a mitzvah meduorasiah to be healthy: v’duvkuh bo. I also believe that just because something is not Torah does not constitute it as “bitul Torah.” Something of value (any one of the seven Chachmos Ha’olam, any mitzvos, or chasadim) is not bitul Torah.

    #810325

    Toi
    Participant

    bpy- only the torah umaada fanatics. joke.

    #810326

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    How can you compare learning science to shaking a lulav? Shaking a lulav is a chiyuv, and is the only way to be mekayem that particular chiyuv. You admitted that studying science isn’t a mitzva per se, but rather a way to be mekayem the general mitzva of recognizing and loving Hashem. Couldn’t a person fulfill this mitzva – at least on the level of strict obligation – without going to college?

    So again, what right do you have to be mevatel your chiyuv of Talmud Torah to study science? Shouldn’t you at least finish Shas and Poskim first?

    #810327

    Abelleh
    Participant

    I never said anything about going to college. I actually don’t think people should attend secular colleges.

    I think it possible you may be misrepresenting “bitul Torah”. Bitul Torah is not engaging in something that isn’t Torah, bitul Torah is engaging in wasting time. Why, then, is it called “bitul Torah”? Because engaging in other activities are necessary and beneficial and fulfilling, and you are being mevatel torah when you are doing nothing of value, because it is then you should be learning.

    #810328

    sam4321
    Participant

    Interestingly,the Baal Haturim explains that the words kli gever al isha = Kli Torah (remez shelo yilmod adom l’bito Torah)

    #810329

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    I don’t really understand why people are against using part of your time to study a science, art, or other intellectual field. Yes, I agree, learning Torah is the most important. But learning a science or art is NOT a waste of time. It is a wisdom given from G-d, and He wants us to appreciate and learn it as well. Learning science, in itself, I don’t think is bittul Totah. It may be bittul Torah when you put your science studies over your Torah studies, and give more importance to the former. Otherwise, I think G-d wants us to learn as much of the wisdoms that He put into our world as possible.

    And I think one cannot say “You must finish x amount of Torah before learning science.” It is different for everyone. Some people need the “outlet” of learning another worldly wisdom in order to appreciate and understand their Torah learning more. Others may not need that extra stimulation and therefore can learn all of Shas before learning a word of science. I, personally, needed to delve into music and art in order to give me peace of mind and clarity when learning gemarah. I could not have done it without it.

    #810330

    cv
    Participant

    “I never said anything about going to college. I actually don’t think people should attend secular colleges”

    Do you know any not secular medical school?

    #810331

    LBK
    Participant

    just watch Yentl

    #810332

    yitayningwut, cant understand how the people who come late to shul yell at the people who talk by davening. likewise how does a internet addict talk about bitul torah. ??? ??? ???? ?????

    #810333

    old man
    Participant

    Small correction if I may: ??? ???? ???? ?????

    #810334

    QuestionForYou
    Participant

    I was taught that the Halachah is that the Torah designates that only Males are supposed to do the “Shaklah V’Taryah” of learning Gemorah. (for example, Shulchan Aruch 241:6, Taz (#4), Maharil (199), Rambam Talmud Torah 1:13, Sotah 20a)

    It is permitted to teach Females, the extracted CONCLUSIONS of those discussions, the Halachah L’Maaseh, so that Females will know the proper Halachah to fulfill the Torah.

    The Mitzvah of learning Torah is on Males; therefore, the concept of Bitul Torah applies to them.

    #810335

    “Its bad enough they earn more than their husband, now you want them to out-learn them too?

    What’s next.. wearing pants? (oh, sorry.. they already wear the pants). ” -I can understand why a husband would feel bad if the wife was earning all the income to supprort the family. Because as a girl I would also feel bad if it was all on my husband’s shoulders. It should be shared or just the man, but never should it only be the woman. It’s not how the torah teaches us to run a home.

    “A school that focuses on halachos pertaining to women and girls, hahskafa, and Chumash, Nach, Tehillem, Pirkei Avos-WITH A FOCUS ON THE HASHKAFA ASPECT OF LEARNING, not just to cover more meforshim, is viewed as second-rate.” -yes I totally agree with you. A woman’s torah is her tznius. Us woman are also compared to a sefer torah. I personally know of a family where the wife is a proffessional and works from nine to five and the husband stays home and takes care of the kids balancing his halfday kollel!! this is totally wrong. I would see in such a circumstance why a guy would resent it. by man keeping to thier jobs and woman keeping to thier roles, we’ll have a better world. Not that women should be lazy chas vesholom though.

    also I was listening to a shiur by rabbi Wallerstien from a while ago and he was saying a story, although I don’t recall all the details, that there is a particular school in south Korea that decided they needed an extra subject. they looked at all the religions in the world and decided the smartest nation was the jews, so now there are school children in south Korea learning from Our holly torah that belongs to us–Gemora!!

    #810336

    mytake
    Member

    BaalHabooze

    Sorry, didn’t see your question till now. I don’t remember word for word what that mechaneches said, but the general idea was that somehow, being thoroughly familiar with meforshim on various hebrew subjects gives the girls the chizuk and inspiration they need to be ehrliche, nurturing mothers and wives.

    Nowhere in the article, however, was there an explanation for how exactly knowledge of a deeper pshat on a posuk in Nach with help anyone be a better mother/wife. So, honestly, I don’t get it.

    #810337

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    A woman’s torah is her tznius.

    Sheker, and I am Moche for Kavod Shmayim & Torah, and ask that the mods delete this.

    Torah is Torah, and nothing else.

    #810338

    ark
    Participant

    abelleh – you wrote “I just follow the Rambam, Ramban, Meiri, Malbim, Megilat Esther, Aruch LaNer , Ramah, Sforno, Rav Hirsch, Rogatotchaver, Chazon Ish, Rav Yosef Dov, Rav Shacter, Rav Willig, Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Twersky, Rav Aharon, and all the other gedolim who believe that science has value”

    what you write is almost humorous. you mention someone like the Chazon Ish. do you know who he was and how much of his time he spent learning?? they say about him a story that he once had to crawl into bed at night because he didnt leave enough strength in him after he finished his learning to walk to his bed. we all know he knew science, but it was not from taking courses, thats for sure! he learnt it from the torah. and you mention the Rogotchover. someone whom they say didnt stop learning for a minute! whatever science he knew or learnt was totally Lishmah.

    and you mention Rishonim. like the Rambam. first of all, we are not discussing learning for parnassah, since a person can learn carpentry or plumbing and in regard to parnasah, they are all a mitzvah. and if you are discussing the wisdom of hashem, you didnt read my post so well. of course if you are on the madreigah to learn science for the knowledge to understand hashem better, or to praise him, or to understand how the human body works for learning purposes, or to keep yourself healthy – -thats a mitzvah. but lets be real. no one does that nowadays. maybe someone like Rav Avigdor Miller, or those that read his books. but no one goes to classes for that.

    and when you wrote “something of value is not bitul torah”. if its not torah and not for a mitzvah it IS bitul torah. now i am not saying its possible to never be mevatel torah, and i am sure 1000% i have done so as well, but lets call a spade a spade.

    #810339

    Toi
    Participant

    GAW- the corresponding mitzva in terms of its all-encompassment for girls is tznius. thats her avodah, the way men have to learn as much as they can.

    #810340

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    If MOST orthodox schools/seminaries teach girls a floodload of material with so many meforshim, there MUST be a mehalech and a reason why these choshuveh teachers and rabbeim think it should a part of the corriculem. I just don’t get it!!?? I know they don’t teach girls ACTUAL GEMORAH and just make photocopies for the purpose of 3-4 lines, my question is, is it something girls really have to be occupied with when there is no chiyuv of talmud torah?!? Why are we paying schools that girls are being taught the sugyah of Sorer U’moreh in depth (B’Iyun)and they stay on such topics for sometimes a whole week??

    I’d love to hear from anyone, from the teacher’s perspective.

    #810341

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW- the corresponding mitzva in terms of its all-encompassment for girls is tznius. thats her avodah, the way men have to learn as much as they can.

    1: It isn’t, we disproved that Shekker a while back. All it does is a “Tavlin” for woman’s Yetzer HaRa (Coincidence on the thread?)

    Women and Gemara

    2: Even if it was, it doesn’t make it Torah, which is Chelek Elokai and the blueprint of the B’riyah (among many other things).

    I once again protest.

    #810342

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Bitul Torah is not engaging in something that isn’t Torah, bitul Torah is engaging in wasting time.

    Sorry pal, there’s no way you are going to convince me that my command of Hebrew/Aramaic is that bad.

    Just curious, in that long list of names you are hiding behind, is there even one – pre World War II – who studied other things before they completed Mikra, Mishna and Talmud?

    #810343

    Toi
    Participant

    i refer to it in terms of their tafkid and their main thing to be focusing on. i dont mean that it has the maalos of torah and encompasses everything in the world. duh.

    #810344

    therealmgama
    Member

    mytake, satmar is not the only school who doesn’t learn anything from a sefer. how about viznitz, bais tzipporah… They learn the chumash and navi but don’t use the actual sefarim (save a lot of $$$!)

    #810345

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    i refer to it in terms of their tafkid and their main thing to be focusing on.

    Also Shekker. If the Tafkid of a woman is to be Tzanuah, what happened to the real 613 Mitzvos? (This is Socratic, please respond).

    #810346

    mytake
    Member

    therealmgama

    Sorry, but Viznitz definately DOES learn chumash and navi in actual sefarim. I am not familiar with Bais Tziporra, but I highly doubt that they are the only exception besides Satmar.

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