December 20, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #911638
GAW: If you can invent a Seif in Shulchan Aruch, I can erase it 😉December 20, 2011 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #911639
GAW: If you can invent a Seif in Shulchan Aruch, I can erase it 😉
I agree, it doesn’t. However, it does for Mehadrin MIN HaMehadrin 🙂
???? ??? ??? ? ? ? ????
See 671.1 & MB (9) there.December 20, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #911640
GAW: first of all, it’s 671:2. Secondly, there is no mention in Shulchan Aruch of girls. Certainly, ?? ??? ???? ???? does not require infants to light to fulfill Mehadrin MIN HaMehadrin, so there is no indication it requires girls either. I quoted this previously from the Meiri, Shiltei Giborim and Magen Avraham and Mikraei Kodesh.
So, sorry but the Shulchan Aruch does not say that girls must light to fulfill Mehadrin MIN HaMehadrin either.December 20, 2011 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #911641
whatever helps their self-image and allows them to feel more fulfilled in their service of Hashem.December 20, 2011 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #911642kfbParticipant
I’d love to show this thread to my cousin’s wife.. She’s a big time talmud of Rabbi Weiss!!December 20, 2011 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #911643popa_bar_abbaParticipant
whatever helps their self-image and allows them to feel more fulfilled in their service of Hashem.
Well, that’s a novel concept in halacha.December 21, 2011 5:44 am at 5:44 am #911644
Popa – Not so novel. Chagigah 16b:
??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????December 21, 2011 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #911645
You said 2 days ago:
Regarding a lack of Mehadrin; the Meiri, Shiltei Giborim and Magen Avraham all write that it is only necessary for adult children to light and not minors. There is no need to indicate the total number of people in the house to fulfill Mehadrin, only those obligated. The Mikraei Kodesh quoted above suggests that the same exemption should apply to girls and women.
so there is no indication it requires girls either. I quoted this previously from the Meiri, Shiltei Giborim and Magen Avraham and Mikraei Kodesh.
So, sorry but the Shulchan Aruch does not say that girls must light to fulfill Mehadrin MIN HaMehadrin either.
OK, which one is it? Just the Mikraei Kodesh (which one!), or the Magen Avraham? I looked the the sif in SA and the Magen Avraham is silent on the matter. (I also saw the Pischei Olam quoting the Shilte Giborim explicitly that Men and Women both need to light).
I’ll admit that it is not “offen” in SA, as one could interpet “Benei Baiso” as males only (even though that is not the Pashtus, vs. those who are Mechuyav to light, which is more Mistaver). The MB certainly holds that girls light.
If you can find me the Magen Avraham that says women don’t have to light, and reads it into the SA, I will be Chozer. In the meantime, from what I see, both the SA & MB hold the women have to light for Mehadrin Min Hamehadrin.
I’m also going to ask for specific Marr’e Mekomos so I can look up these for myself.December 21, 2011 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #911646
pba- your inability to detect sarcasm is without equal.December 21, 2011 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #911647popa_bar_abbaParticipant
pba- your inability to detect sarcasm is without equal.
You seem upset.December 21, 2011 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #911648TheGoqParticipant
Yenta did u light how was it?December 21, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #911649ItcheSrulikMember
The ikkar is that women should be pregnant and in the kitchen, but not barefoot because it isn’t Tznius.
(See Toi, we have an affirmative action policy on sarcasm)December 21, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #911650
goq, no i didnt light. i was yotzei with my father. unfortunately my father thinks i’m not lighting because i ‘got too old’ to light, when in reality i’m not sure why i dont want to light. i’m pretty sure its not the age part
IS, HUH?December 21, 2011 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #911651
They were probably sarcastic in the Gemara Chagigah too, no?December 21, 2011 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #911652
DY: The first quote was more precise. The Mikrai Kodash is Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank. Unfortunately, I do not have it with me at the moment to glean the precise sources in the other Seforim and it is not on HebrewBooks.December 21, 2011 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #911653
Also, I assume the Shulchan Aruch you are referring to is 675:3. The Magen Avraham 4 explains (see Machatzis HaShekel) that it refers to when there is no man lighting. He understands the intention of the Shulchan Aruch is that she has no obligation to light when a man is already lighting. Certainly, there is no indication that one does not fulfill Mehadrin Min HaMehadrin otherwise.December 21, 2011 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #911654☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
DY: The first quote was more precise.
I assume you meant to address GAW.December 21, 2011 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #911655
Hadri Bi (I’m Modeh).
Thank you for teaching me something new today.December 21, 2011 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #911656TheGoqParticipant
Sorry to hear that Yenta, have a happy chanukah!December 21, 2011 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #911657ItcheSrulikMember
yitayningwut: Which gemara in chagiga? There are 30 something blatt and I only know the first perek.December 21, 2011 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #911658
Itche – lol, the one I cited above. It was in response to Popa’s comment, and retrospectively to Toi’s sarcasm.December 22, 2011 3:46 am at 3:46 am #911659writersoulParticipant
I stopped when I was thirteen and my menorah cracked. My mother offered to get me a new one and I decided not to for a few reasons. My sister stopped at twelve because she was the only girl in her class who still lit. Now my current twelve-year-old sister is still lighting and probably will keep lighting.
Is there more of a thing for boys to keep lighting on their own later than girls? I’m asking because in a family I know, the girls stopped at 13-14 and the boys still light on their own. I never asked them their case, but in your opinion, is it more of a boy thing or just specific to each person, no matter the gender?December 22, 2011 8:50 am at 8:50 am #911660One of the chevraParticipant
THE REASON GIVEN BY THE CHASAM SOFER FOR WOMAN/GIRLS NOT LIGHTING:
Since the original takonoh was to light OUTSIDE, and there is a rule that “KOL KEVUDAH BAS MELECH PENIMAH” A woman should not do something which is done outside for the purpose of Pirsuam because it lacks tznius. Although today many people dont light outside THE ORIGINAL TAKONO WAS NOT MADE FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS TO BY THEMSELVES BUT RATHER BE YOTZE FROM THE FATHER/HUSBAND.
The Satmer Rebbe Zatzal added to this that since part of the gezeira of the goyim of the chanuka story concerned woman “going outside” of thier family structure, (He probably was reffering to the gezeira of “tebael lehegmon techila” -ootc-) therefore at the time of the pirsum haness we purposely show the emphasis of family structure of the women/girls and have them not light independently but rather be yotze with thier father/husband.December 22, 2011 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #911661
yit- ayin shumm in tosfos. ain mochin.December 22, 2011 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #911662December 22, 2011 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #911663shtusimParticipant
While my daughter was in seminary a few years ago, she went with some girls to Rebbitzen Kanievsky a’h. It was during Chanukah, and they arrived just as R’ Chaim shlita was getting ready to light.
My daughter and her freinds were able to stand near the Rebiitzen in the doorway while R’ Chaim lit the menorah. After R’ Chaim lit, THE REBITTZEN LIT HER OWN MENORAH WITHOUT A BROCHO!!! We have photos of it at home. If Rebbitzen kanievsky could light, so can all other girls and women.December 22, 2011 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #911664
Toi – ?????? ???? sarcasm is no better than a ????.December 23, 2011 12:05 am at 12:05 am #911665
yit- li’aniyus da’ateich.December 23, 2011 12:07 am at 12:07 am #911666
yit- li’aniyus da’ateich. (sic.)December 23, 2011 12:15 am at 12:15 am #911667
NotedDecember 5, 2012 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #911668
chanukah’s in a few days and I’m still undecided about this year…
anyone have any inspiring reasons or vertlach to share on lighting?
thanks!December 5, 2012 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #911669aurora77Participant
I am a single woman coming to Judaism after discovering maternal family roots — no one else in my family is going down this path with me, so I am the only one to light. I am really anticipating these lightings, because to me, it seems almost like some kind of personal metaphor as well…I am beginning to shine the light of discovery into a family past obscured by darkness when my maternal grandmother and family left Germany between the World Wars for Brazil and eventually the USA. I have been piecing together the clues, shining light on them, and by doing so, I feel profoundly connected to my MomMom, who passed away when I was seven. I am reclaiming a part of my family history, welcoming it into the warm light of today, making sure that it is not snuffed out. I hope that you have a Chanukah full of light and joy 🙂December 5, 2012 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #911670
Hi Aurora, thanks so much for your inspiring and beautiful post!
I’ve been thinking and I realized my 6 year old sister constantly compares her older siblings for differences and I may have to light so we don’t have to explain anything to her and she doesnt get confused… 🙂December 5, 2012 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #911671aurora77Participant
Thank you for your kind words 🙂 It must be a beautiful sight to see young children’s faces lit up by the glow of the candles or oil. Such blessings!December 5, 2012 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #911672WIYMember
I think you should try and psychoanalyze yourself to figure out why you no longer want to light. Do you maybe feel its “boyish, or feminist” or do you feel you are too old, or do you feel like you have no clue what its all about and therefore feel weird doing it? Think it through and get back to us if you like.December 5, 2012 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #911673ready nowParticipantDecember 6, 2012 12:04 am at 12:04 am #911674
yenta: lol I still don’t get you…:PDecember 6, 2012 12:56 am at 12:56 am #911675SJSinNYCMember
Here is my perspective: There are many mitzvos that are forbidden to women, taboo or just “not done.” I prefer active mitzvos because I find they help me connect to the task at hand (specifically here, Chanuka, the history of it all, the miracles etc) and form a stronger bond with Hashem.
When I say the bracha to light, I feel connected to the Jewish chain of people who have done this for many generations. Why turn away the opportunity to do a mitzvah?
I always lit. I grew up in an all female household. We all lit. I always felt bad for my friends who were denied participating in this mitzvah.December 6, 2012 1:46 am at 1:46 am #911676
aurora, its truly is. G-d willing you should see it soon too!
WIY, i tried that. last year too. i think i have part of the reason; i posted it last year. it got trivialized a bit in my house…
OOM, whats that supposed to mean? 😀December 6, 2012 2:37 am at 2:37 am #911677
sjsinNYC, I like that way of thinking. thanksDecember 6, 2012 2:59 am at 2:59 am #911678
I just opened this thread and said “I don’t get it,” and then looked back and saw that I had already said that (which I had forgotten). Funny, no?December 6, 2012 3:07 am at 3:07 am #911679
oom, LOL but i still dont get what you dont getDecember 6, 2012 3:56 am at 3:56 am #911680
Like I said before (lol) I don’t get why you feel weird about it…I mean, if you grew up doing it, why would you even have a havah minah that it’s weird? In my house, everyone lights (including my mother) and I would think it’s weird to think it’s weird…because that’s what I’m used to.
No?December 6, 2012 4:07 am at 4:07 am #911681
ya it get that. its not that i feel ‘weird’ in the usual sense. trust me, lighting is the least of things that makes me stand out…
last year I didn’t feel excited I guess which was odd. i mean, who doesn’t look forward to chanukah? well last year i was kinda in the mid of finals during chanukah so that may have been contributory…
I’m thinking about it. Maybe I will re-light again this year.December 6, 2012 4:36 am at 4:36 am #911682WIYMember
How was it trivialized?
I think you would gain from reading some inspiring divrei Torah on Chanukah and maybe hearing a Shiur on Chanukah. If you are the deep type of person I would recommend Rabbi Akiva Tatz he has a lot on the topic. Or for more down to earth you can try Rabbi Shafier from the Shmuz.
Btw do you sing the maoz Tzur every year? If you don’t maybe try that for this year you and your sisters sing it. Maybe you can even come up with a song and a dance you can do with your sisters that would make it more exciting for them and give it more meaning for everyone involved?December 6, 2012 4:48 am at 4:48 am #911683oomisParticipant
As far as I know, there is no issur for women to light, Married women typically do not, because they and their husbands are considered as one. But there is no reason for the other female members of the household not to light, and it is mehudar for there to be several menorahs shining.December 6, 2012 5:32 am at 5:32 am #911684Loyal JewParticipant
Sheetos aside, due to our war against feminism it is important for only men to light. So said my mara deasra.December 6, 2012 6:56 am at 6:56 am #911685HealthParticipant
OOmis -“But there is no reason for the other female members of the household not to light, and it is mehudar for there to be several menorahs shining.”
OOmis -LOOk Up! Plenty of Shittos saying Women and Girls Should Not light and it isn’t Mehudar.
I personally – when I was married – gave my girls the choice, but not my wife. I think they lit until Bas Mitzva, but not after that.December 6, 2012 7:06 am at 7:06 am #911686December 6, 2012 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #911687
WIY, trivialized in that singing the brachos is a contest, singing maoz tzur is nonexistent, fighting over who gets to use the camera and video camera, who got better gifts etc. I’m more down to earth-I prefer tangible over theoretical. part of the problem is I am more serious than the rest of my family so even discussing this with my parents wont really change the situation. my father would not get what I mean so there is no reason to even tell him…
But on the bright side, I think I may light this year, even if I don’t have a good reason…
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