girls lighting

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  • #911638

    hello99
    Member

    GAW: If you can invent a Seif in Shulchan Aruch, I can erase it πŸ˜‰

    #911639

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW: If you can invent a Seif in Shulchan Aruch, I can erase it πŸ˜‰

    I agree, it doesn’t. However, it does for Mehadrin MIN HaMehadrin πŸ™‚

    ???? ??? ??? ? ? ? ????

    ?????

    See 671.1 & MB (9) there.

    #911640

    hello99
    Member

    GAW: first of all, it’s 671:2. Secondly, there is no mention in Shulchan Aruch of girls. Certainly, ?? ??? ???? ???? does not require infants to light to fulfill Mehadrin MIN HaMehadrin, so there is no indication it requires girls either. I quoted this previously from the Meiri, Shiltei Giborim and Magen Avraham and Mikraei Kodesh.

    So, sorry but the Shulchan Aruch does not say that girls must light to fulfill Mehadrin MIN HaMehadrin either.

    #911641

    Toi
    Participant

    whatever helps their self-image and allows them to feel more fulfilled in their service of Hashem.

    #911642

    kfb
    Participant

    I’d love to show this thread to my cousin’s wife.. She’s a big time talmud of Rabbi Weiss!!

    #911643

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    whatever helps their self-image and allows them to feel more fulfilled in their service of Hashem.

    Well, that’s a novel concept in halacha.

    #911644

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Popa – Not so novel. Chagigah 16b:

    ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????

    #911645

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Hello99:

    You said 2 days ago:

    Regarding a lack of Mehadrin; the Meiri, Shiltei Giborim and Magen Avraham all write that it is only necessary for adult children to light and not minors. There is no need to indicate the total number of people in the house to fulfill Mehadrin, only those obligated. The Mikraei Kodesh quoted above suggests that the same exemption should apply to girls and women.

    And yesterday:

    so there is no indication it requires girls either. I quoted this previously from the Meiri, Shiltei Giborim and Magen Avraham and Mikraei Kodesh.

    So, sorry but the Shulchan Aruch does not say that girls must light to fulfill Mehadrin MIN HaMehadrin either.

    OK, which one is it? Just the Mikraei Kodesh (which one!), or the Magen Avraham? I looked the the sif in SA and the Magen Avraham is silent on the matter. (I also saw the Pischei Olam quoting the Shilte Giborim explicitly that Men and Women both need to light).

    I’ll admit that it is not “offen” in SA, as one could interpet “Benei Baiso” as males only (even though that is not the Pashtus, vs. those who are Mechuyav to light, which is more Mistaver). The MB certainly holds that girls light.

    If you can find me the Magen Avraham that says women don’t have to light, and reads it into the SA, I will be Chozer. In the meantime, from what I see, both the SA & MB hold the women have to light for Mehadrin Min Hamehadrin.

    I’m also going to ask for specific Marr’e Mekomos so I can look up these for myself.

    #911646

    Toi
    Participant

    pba- your inability to detect sarcasm is without equal.

    #911647

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    pba- your inability to detect sarcasm is without equal.

    You seem upset.

    #911648

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Yenta did u light how was it?

    #911649

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    The ikkar is that women should be pregnant and in the kitchen, but not barefoot because it isn’t Tznius.

    (See Toi, we have an affirmative action policy on sarcasm)

    #911650

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    goq, no i didnt light. i was yotzei with my father. unfortunately my father thinks i’m not lighting because i ‘got too old’ to light, when in reality i’m not sure why i dont want to light. i’m pretty sure its not the age part

    IS, HUH?

    #911651

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    They were probably sarcastic in the Gemara Chagigah too, no?

    #911652

    hello99
    Member

    DY: The first quote was more precise. The Mikrai Kodash is Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank. Unfortunately, I do not have it with me at the moment to glean the precise sources in the other Seforim and it is not on HebrewBooks.

    #911653

    hello99
    Member

    Also, I assume the Shulchan Aruch you are referring to is 675:3. The Magen Avraham 4 explains (see Machatzis HaShekel) that it refers to when there is no man lighting. He understands the intention of the Shulchan Aruch is that she has no obligation to light when a man is already lighting. Certainly, there is no indication that one does not fulfill Mehadrin Min HaMehadrin otherwise.

    #911654

    DY: The first quote was more precise.

    I assume you meant to address GAW.

    #911655

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    hello99:

    Hadri Bi (I’m Modeh).

    Thank you for teaching me something new today.

    #911656

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Sorry to hear that Yenta, have a happy chanukah!

    #911657

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    yitayningwut: Which gemara in chagiga? There are 30 something blatt and I only know the first perek.

    #911658

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Itche – lol, the one I cited above. It was in response to Popa’s comment, and retrospectively to Toi’s sarcasm.

    #911659

    writersoul
    Member

    I stopped when I was thirteen and my menorah cracked. My mother offered to get me a new one and I decided not to for a few reasons. My sister stopped at twelve because she was the only girl in her class who still lit. Now my current twelve-year-old sister is still lighting and probably will keep lighting.

    Is there more of a thing for boys to keep lighting on their own later than girls? I’m asking because in a family I know, the girls stopped at 13-14 and the boys still light on their own. I never asked them their case, but in your opinion, is it more of a boy thing or just specific to each person, no matter the gender?

    #911660

    One of the chevra
    Participant

    THE REASON GIVEN BY THE CHASAM SOFER FOR WOMAN/GIRLS NOT LIGHTING:

    Since the original takonoh was to light OUTSIDE, and there is a rule that “KOL KEVUDAH BAS MELECH PENIMAH” A woman should not do something which is done outside for the purpose of Pirsuam because it lacks tznius. Although today many people dont light outside THE ORIGINAL TAKONO WAS NOT MADE FOR WOMEN AND GIRLS TO BY THEMSELVES BUT RATHER BE YOTZE FROM THE FATHER/HUSBAND.

    The Satmer Rebbe Zatzal added to this that since part of the gezeira of the goyim of the chanuka story concerned woman “going outside” of thier family structure, (He probably was reffering to the gezeira of “tebael lehegmon techila” -ootc-) therefore at the time of the pirsum haness we purposely show the emphasis of family structure of the women/girls and have them not light independently but rather be yotze with thier father/husband.

    #911661

    Toi
    Participant

    yit- ayin shumm in tosfos. ain mochin.

    #911662

    hello99
    Member

    #911663

    shtusim
    Participant

    While my daughter was in seminary a few years ago, she went with some girls to Rebbitzen Kanievsky a’h. It was during Chanukah, and they arrived just as R’ Chaim shlita was getting ready to light.

    My daughter and her freinds were able to stand near the Rebiitzen in the doorway while R’ Chaim lit the menorah. After R’ Chaim lit, THE REBITTZEN LIT HER OWN MENORAH WITHOUT A BROCHO!!! We have photos of it at home. If Rebbitzen kanievsky could light, so can all other girls and women.

    #911664

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Toi – ?????? ???? sarcasm is no better than a ????.

    #911665

    Toi
    Participant

    yit- li’aniyus da’ateich.

    #911666

    Toi
    Participant

    yit- li’aniyus da’ateich. (sic.)

    #911667

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Noted

    #911668

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    bump

    chanukah’s in a few days and I’m still undecided about this year…

    anyone have any inspiring reasons or vertlach to share on lighting?

    thanks!

    #911669

    aurora77
    Participant

    Hello yentingyenta,

    I am a single woman coming to Judaism after discovering maternal family roots — no one else in my family is going down this path with me, so I am the only one to light. I am really anticipating these lightings, because to me, it seems almost like some kind of personal metaphor as well…I am beginning to shine the light of discovery into a family past obscured by darkness when my maternal grandmother and family left Germany between the World Wars for Brazil and eventually the USA. I have been piecing together the clues, shining light on them, and by doing so, I feel profoundly connected to my MomMom, who passed away when I was seven. I am reclaiming a part of my family history, welcoming it into the warm light of today, making sure that it is not snuffed out. I hope that you have a Chanukah full of light and joy πŸ™‚

    #911670

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    Hi Aurora, thanks so much for your inspiring and beautiful post!

    I’ve been thinking and I realized my 6 year old sister constantly compares her older siblings for differences and I may have to light so we don’t have to explain anything to her and she doesnt get confused… πŸ™‚

    #911671

    aurora77
    Participant

    Hello yentingyenta,

    Thank you for your kind words πŸ™‚ It must be a beautiful sight to see young children’s faces lit up by the glow of the candles or oil. Such blessings!

    #911672

    WIY
    Member

    yentingyenta

    I think you should try and psychoanalyze yourself to figure out why you no longer want to light. Do you maybe feel its “boyish, or feminist” or do you feel you are too old, or do you feel like you have no clue what its all about and therefore feel weird doing it? Think it through and get back to us if you like.

    #911673

    ready now
    Participant
    #911674

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    yenta: lol I still don’t get you…:P

    #911675

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Yenta,

    Here is my perspective: There are many mitzvos that are forbidden to women, taboo or just “not done.” I prefer active mitzvos because I find they help me connect to the task at hand (specifically here, Chanuka, the history of it all, the miracles etc) and form a stronger bond with Hashem.

    When I say the bracha to light, I feel connected to the Jewish chain of people who have done this for many generations. Why turn away the opportunity to do a mitzvah?

    I always lit. I grew up in an all female household. We all lit. I always felt bad for my friends who were denied participating in this mitzvah.

    #911676

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    aurora, its truly is. G-d willing you should see it soon too!

    WIY, i tried that. last year too. i think i have part of the reason; i posted it last year. it got trivialized a bit in my house…

    OOM, whats that supposed to mean? πŸ˜€

    #911677

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    sjsinNYC, I like that way of thinking. thanks

    #911678

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    I just opened this thread and said “I don’t get it,” and then looked back and saw that I had already said that (which I had forgotten). Funny, no?

    #911679

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    oom, LOL but i still dont get what you dont get

    #911680

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Like I said before (lol) I don’t get why you feel weird about it…I mean, if you grew up doing it, why would you even have a havah minah that it’s weird? In my house, everyone lights (including my mother) and I would think it’s weird to think it’s weird…because that’s what I’m used to.

    No?

    #911681

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    ya it get that. its not that i feel ‘weird’ in the usual sense. trust me, lighting is the least of things that makes me stand out…

    last year I didn’t feel excited I guess which was odd. i mean, who doesn’t look forward to chanukah? well last year i was kinda in the mid of finals during chanukah so that may have been contributory…

    I’m thinking about it. Maybe I will re-light again this year.

    #911682

    WIY
    Member

    Yenting

    How was it trivialized?

    I think you would gain from reading some inspiring divrei Torah on Chanukah and maybe hearing a Shiur on Chanukah. If you are the deep type of person I would recommend Rabbi Akiva Tatz he has a lot on the topic. Or for more down to earth you can try Rabbi Shafier from the Shmuz.

    Btw do you sing the maoz Tzur every year? If you don’t maybe try that for this year you and your sisters sing it. Maybe you can even come up with a song and a dance you can do with your sisters that would make it more exciting for them and give it more meaning for everyone involved?

    #911683

    oomis
    Participant

    As far as I know, there is no issur for women to light, Married women typically do not, because they and their husbands are considered as one. But there is no reason for the other female members of the household not to light, and it is mehudar for there to be several menorahs shining.

    #911684

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Sheetos aside, due to our war against feminism it is important for only men to light. So said my mara deasra.

    #911685

    Health
    Participant

    OOmis -“But there is no reason for the other female members of the household not to light, and it is mehudar for there to be several menorahs shining.”

    OOmis -LOOk Up! Plenty of Shittos saying Women and Girls Should Not light and it isn’t Mehudar.

    I personally – when I was married – gave my girls the choice, but not my wife. I think they lit until Bas Mitzva, but not after that.

    #911686

    yitayningwut
    Participant
    #911687

    yentingyenta
    Participant

    WIY, trivialized in that singing the brachos is a contest, singing maoz tzur is nonexistent, fighting over who gets to use the camera and video camera, who got better gifts etc. I’m more down to earth-I prefer tangible over theoretical. part of the problem is I am more serious than the rest of my family so even discussing this with my parents wont really change the situation. my father would not get what I mean so there is no reason to even tell him…

    But on the bright side, I think I may light this year, even if I don’t have a good reason…

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