Girls out of school in Monsey

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  • This topic has 49 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 12 years ago by mw13.
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  • #592848

    We are 2 months into the school year and there are still elementary school girls in Monsey without a school to go to. These are upper grades, not kindergarten.

    Two girls schools closed in the summer and not everyone is placed.

    What should we do as a tzibur to help?

    #708699
    WIY
    Member

    It depends on how many girls. It sounds like one of the existing schools will need to open a new class. That would require enough students (who pay tuition) and finding a qualified teacher(s).

    #708700
    aries2756
    Participant

    What does the Vaad Harabonim say?

    #708701

    Maybe privately hire some of the teachers that lost their job too… and do a “round-robin” between all their houses, until a long-term solution is found?

    #708702
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Double class sizes.

    The frum community cannot afford 15-20 kids in a class. We need 30-35.

    Half the teachers won’t be able to handle it. Luckily, we will only need the other half.

    #708703
    Moq
    Member

    Ah yes, Popa and Machiavelli team up to fix Khal Yisrael. Problem is, I suspect you’re both right.

    #708704
    mw13
    Participant

    PBA: Sounds like a good idea in theory, but what if your kid who has a teacher who can’t handle the increased class size, yet decides to stay on anyways?

    #708705
    aries2756
    Participant

    We grew up with 30 kids in a class

    #708706
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Mw:

    We fire that teacher.

    Look, our communities are either not able or not willing to support the current standard of education. We need to face that, and live with it.

    #708707
    aries2756
    Participant

    What’s so great about our current standard?

    #708708
    arc
    Participant

    most of the schools in monsey dont have 15 kids they have more like 25.

    just because years ago there were 35 kids in a class means nothing.

    #708709
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t think it means nothing. It means at some point we felt rich enough to reduce class size to 25. We are no longer that rich.

    Deal with it.

    #708710
    arc
    Participant

    whats with the recent board trend of “deal with it”?

    At some point we realized theres more to school then just attending and 35 kids in a class was detrimental to the student.

    #708711
    arc
    Participant

    Also FTR the bigger issue in Monsey is that most of the schools dont feel a sense of responsibility to the community and therefore refuse to accept students.

    R’ Chill works tirelessly with this issue and publicly called on “those” schools to step up and realize their achraius to the klal. The late R’ Flam was also known to work hard to get all students into schools (HS was the bigger issue then)and Im sure there are others.

    #708712
    squeak
    Participant

    whats with the recent board trend of “deal with it”?

    When I see someone use that phrase on the “molesters” thread, I’ll be bothered by it. But when it’s applied here I think it’s appropriate.

    #708713
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    go look.

    #708714
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    whats with the recent board trend of “deal with it”?

    Sorry… I believe I started that.

    I just wanted (in another thread) to get in a pre-emptive shot to those posters who were going to tell me that eating shabbos leftovers during the week is assur. It was an expression of frustration on my part. I certainly didn’t mean for it to catch on.

    My apologies.

    The Wolf

    #708715

    i think you also started “fair enough”

    alt: “fair enough then”

    #708716
    arc
    Participant

    fair enough is ok because you’re agreeing. deal with it in most cases (wolfs was ok) is annoying because it means “I am right and will not listen to reason”

    #708717

    i didnt mean to imply it wasnt okay

    just another phrase i think wolf popularized to some extent

    deal with it.

    fair enough?

    #708718
    squeak
    Participant

    popa-

    Oh, I’ve seen “deal with it” on that thread, but in an entirely different context. Believe me, there are plenty of vociferous individuals who would love to “deal with it”.

    #708719
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yeah, I use “fair enough” all the time. Guilty as charged.

    The Wolf

    #708720

    dont be so quick to plead

    you werent indicted.

    (although i suppose “guilty as charged” does not really imply an admission of *guilt*, more a cleverish way of saying: yes, i do that, or am that, without necessarily a judgementalism)

    whatever

    #708721
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    although i suppose

    In this case, your supposition is correct.

    The Wolf

    #708722

    what does that mean exactly: “whatever”

    seems to have a similar flavor to “deal with it”

    but more laissez-faire(sp?)

    or is it fundamentally different?

    #708723
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    what does that mean exactly: “whatever”

    “Whatever” is an expression of disgust, weariness and resignation.

    The Wolf

    #708724

    thanks wolf

    i sort of knew that intuitively but couldnt put it into words

    #708725
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    thanks wolf

    De nada.

    Any other Wolfisms you need explained? 🙂

    The Wolf

    #708726
    bpt
    Participant

    Sorry, I’m joining this so late it the game. Bklyn has had similar cases (a school closes and “no one wants the kids”) but when you dug a bit deeper, it turns out the there were schools that would take some of the kids, and others would take the other kids, but it wa that parents that said,”we don’t want THAT school.

    And true, THAT school did not want THAT child for whatever reason (hashkofo, money, space, whatever) but each child could have been placed had the parents been flexible.

    I don’t know the Monsey market, but in Blkyn (and to a larger extent, Lakewood) you have situations where parent A and child and a perfect fit for school XYZ, but spouse refuses to play by the same rule book, so the kid gets shut out.

    If all players (parents and child) were on the same page, the process would be a whole lot smoother.

    I’m no model parent (in terms of compliance, yichus or $$$) and if I got my kids into schools each term, than anyone can.

    All you might need to do is a really good look in the mirror

    #708727
    arc
    Participant

    BPT, I dont want to insult people but you’re along the right lines.

    #708728
    aries2756
    Participant

    I think that it is better to have 35 kids in a class than to have kids out of school, so yes deal with it would be a good answer at this point. And it is the responsibility of the local Vaad Harabonim to convene and figure out why the schools did not take them or why the parents did not accept offers. So when all is said and done, every child is placed.

    #708729
    arc
    Participant

    If a parent or school doesnt want to abide by the vaad harabonim, then what should the vaad do?

    If only 1 school listens to the vaad is it fair to force them to add 100 students?

    Another problem is I believe 1 of the 2 schools is very yeshivish the other was a big mix.

    #708730
    aries2756
    Participant

    If a school does not listen to the VAAD then the whole entire town should know about it because the Rosh of that school should not be allowed to participate in any Vaad or any community conference or council.

    There are ways of handling a mix of kids and that is to divide the classes accordingly. Or to open another class in the appropriate school. It is up to the Vaad as a group of frum and reliable individuals to figure out what is best for the students that were left out.

    #708731
    arc
    Participant

    Aries, even if they arent allowed on the vaad (I dont think the prinipals are on the vaad) it doesnt cure the situation.

    If a school doesnt want to follow the vaad what control do they have to force it?

    Supposedly Lakewood has the strongest vaad but even there I doubt they can force their will.

    Monsey unlike some other places isnt a town “run” by a Rebbe,yeshiva or single Rov but rather a group of neighborhoods and their Rabbonim combined into a mostly nice community.

    #708732
    aries2756
    Participant

    Arc, any school who teaches respect and derech eretz does not have the chutzpah to not show the Vaad Harabonim of the local communities respect and derech eretz especially when it comes to such a situation. After all the parent body and the students all fall under the auspices of not only the schools but the local Rabbonim who are part of the Vaad. So if the Vaad were to tell ALL the parents to keep ALL the children home from school till this was all figured out that is what the entire community would have to do.

    So no the VAAD does not RUN the community but neither does these two schools. And when all is said and done the VAAD has more power over the communities than these two schools do.

    #708733
    arc
    Participant

    Aries,

    In an ideal world you’re right but I feel like you’re giving too much credit to the Vaad and parents.

    I think if the school says we are staying open we dont want these children because they’re a bad influence most parents especially working ones will ignore the vaad and not start with their school.

    #708734
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why would anyone live in Monsey anyway? It’s like living in Brooklyn, except there’s no shnitzi. And you have to pay a toll to get to work.

    If they would live in Miami, they wouldn’t have this problem. If they would live in Milwaukee, they wouldn’t have this problem.

    #708735
    aries2756
    Participant

    Arc, let me remind you that this did happen in Lakewood and R’ Solomon said that ALL the girls schools in Lakewood would remain closed until ALL the girls had a place. It did work.

    If the community in Monsey can sit idly by while children are labeled and not work with them and help them then….EDITED

    #708736
    arc
    Participant

    Monsey doesnt have a R’ Matisyahu.

    Out of town cities that have 1 to 2 schools arent comparable.

    Underscore I’m sure this will shock you but most people in Monsey dont work in the city.

    I also wonder how many students are actually out of school and if they honestly had no options or if they only wanted 1 specific school that isnt working with them.

    #708737
    aries2756
    Participant

    Arc, You are really making Monsey out to be an elitist society where neighbors don’t really care about each other, and Rabbonim don’t get along. I have a lot of family in Monsey and that is not what they project their community to be like.

    So I don’t know if you are playing devils advocate or you are really a cynic. But you are really painting a very nasty picture of that community.

    #708738
    arc
    Participant

    wow how on earth do you figure that? I was getting that impression from you! I was trying to honestly and fairly defend my community and your assertion that Rabbonim dont care about the students.

    #708739
    mw13
    Participant

    arc: Don’t worry, I didn’t get that impression of Monsey at all from your comments. aries2756 tends to get rather worked up when it gets to chinuch issues (not that that’s necessarily a bad thing), so don’t be too worried about it.

    aries2756:

    “If the community in Monsey can sit idly by while children are labeled and not work with them and help them then….EDITED”

    Not every case is so black and white. If you were in charge of a school, and a parent came crying to you to let her daughter in, even though she would definitely be a bad influence on the other girls, what would you do? Sacrifice one, or make everybody suffer? I don’t think there’s any easy answers here.

    #708740
    aries2756
    Participant

    mw13, I would work with that student! In what way would she be a bad influence on the other students? What are her underlying issues? what is going on with her?

    #708741
    mw13
    Participant

    For arguments sake, let’s say the girl comes from a good, decent home, and has no emunah questions. However, she has absolutely no interest in Judaism, watches movies, listens to goyish music, smokes, drinks, and talks to boys. She is fairly popular in her class, and since she has come several girls have begun to join her in some of these activities, something they never would have dreamed of doing a few months ago. Your daughter happens to be friends with this girl, and is also taking up some of these habits. Now, you get rock-solid proof that this girl spent last motzai shabbos drunk at her boyfriends house. Your move?

    #708742
    aries2756
    Participant

    Firstly are you saying that ALL the girls out of school are in this situation?

    Secondly, why hasn’t anyone intervened till this girl has gotten to this point in the scenario?

    Thirdly, I would definitely talk to the young lady in question, and no I can’t tell you what I would say to her because it would all depend on her situation, why she lost her interest in Judaism, when it started and why it started. I have worked with many young people in various situations caused by various reasons. And for reasons only they know, they clicked with me and trusted me. I am NOT the only person who can get through to these kids. I am NOT the only one who can love these kids and restore trust in them. And I am not the only one who believes they are worth the effort.

    #708743
    mw13
    Participant

    “Firstly are you saying that ALL the girls out of school are in this situation?”

    No, but I think quite a few of them are (or at least in a case very similar).

    “Secondly, why hasn’t anyone intervened till this girl has gotten to this point in the scenario?”

    Cuz the system doesn’t work, remember? Nobody cares.

    “Thirdly, I would definitely talk to the young lady in question, and no I can’t tell you what I would say to her because it would all depend on her situation, why she lost her interest in Judaism, when it started and why it started. I have worked with many young people in various situations caused by various reasons. And for reasons only they know, they clicked with me and trusted me.”

    That sounds like a rather vague plan, at best. Not something that I think most mechanchim would buy, and not something I’d be happy to hear from my own child’s principal. A threat to the other students must be dealt with.

    #708744
    aries2756
    Participant

    mw, do you live in Monsey that you are so in tune to the situation? And I don’t have to answer to you because YOU are not the parent body, and I am not the principal!!! I am a mentor and a life coach, and as I said I don’t have to tell you exactly what I would say because that would depend on what the child would tell me and the circumstances and variables surrounding the child. I see how that would be difficult for you to understand that, but that all matters when dealing with children. And since it is NOT your child in question YOU would not be privy to hear what I or anyone else would say to a child in such a situation so that is neither here nor there. Parents such as yourself are a threat to the students. G-d help your child if Hashem tests her next. Did it ever occur to you, that you might be the next parent or the parent who is begging the principal to have rachmonos on your child next year? It can happen to anyone and has happened to children from the best families, the most choshuv families and even children of Roshei Yeshivos. So please don’t be so quick to judge. What if it was YOUR child would you consider her a threat to others? Would you say she has to be dealt with? Would you consider her “bad”? Or would you want the school to work with her and help her. Would you be pleading with them not to push her towards OTD?

    Al tadin et chavercha ad shetagiah b’mkomah!

    #708745
    arc
    Participant

    Why was Monsey singled out in this thread it seems Brooklyn is having the same issue. Perhaps it is not a local issue but an issue we as a nation are having or at least cities with many schools..

    #708746
    aries2756
    Participant

    I believe that someone was concerned about their community. You are right we need to be concerned about ALL children in ALL communities.

    #708747
    mw13
    Participant

    “mw, do you live in Monsey that you are so in tune to the situation?”

    Yes, actually.

    “Al tadin et chavercha ad shetagiah b’mkomah!”

    Wouldn’t that also apply to the mechanchim kicking out children to protect the others?

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