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whatever happened to “hinei hee b’ohel?”
obviously, not taken out of context, and not intended to keep girls locked in their homes, but the sensitivity of this beautiful act of internal tznius should at least be understood. can’t argue with that.
whatever happened to “hinei hee b’ohel?”
I know that I’m as dumb as fiddlesticks sometimes, but I’m not familiar with that pasuk. Or did you mean “henei baOhel?”
In any event, what, exactly, is your point?
The Wolf
“It worked for me less than 20 years ago. I never went on a “shidduch date” in my life.”
Why do you keep bosting about doing something that is wrong?
EDITED
“I don’t self-identify with any group. I share certain ideologies with the “yeshivish” movement, some with what is identified as “MO” and possibly even some with the chassidic world.”
So how do you no witch parts to pick and choose? How do you no yur doing the right thing by taking this part of yeshivish and that part of modern and the other part of chasidish? What about ase lcha rav?
EDITED
“And some Chareidim who steal”
Someone who steals is not a charedi. And not everyone who you think steals is really stealilng khalacha.
“The Wolf (who, BTW, has gone “mixed swimming” — alone with his wife). “
For the 10000000th time: MIXED SWIMMING IS ASSUR. You cant swim mixed – even with yur wife. And yes I have a source — the Kedushas Shoshanim perek 17 seif 4 sez yur not aloud to look at yur wife when shes undressed even when tahor. Unless you swim fully clothed yur oiver on that. Theres no reason to say that theres an exception to mixed swimming with yur wife, just liek theres no exception to lashon hara with yur wife, or eating kosher with yur wife or any other mitzvah.
“because I don’t belong to any one hashkafah. “
Thats so wrong. At least pick a hashkafah and be proud ofit.
Above: “Ok, so if a person wears a shtreimel and like the look and feels comfortable with it, then he is chassidish”
Wearing chassidish garb does not make one any more a chosid, than wearing a white coat and stethoscope makes one a doctor. It just enables you to fool the public more easily, if you dress that way without deserving the title.
mosherose: it is not assur to swimming alone w/your wife. the sefer that you are quoting is bringing a chumra!!!
EDITED
oomis1105 said:
“Wearing chassidish garb does not make one any more a chosid, than wearing a white coat and stethoscope makes one a doctor. It just enables you to fool the public more easily, if you dress that way without deserving the title.”
How many times do I have to repeat myself? When someone identifies themselves as chassidish, of course it doesn’t make him more of a chosid, I only said that wearing chassidishe garb says that this person idendifies himself as belonging to the chassidishe group. DO YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE?????
oomis1105:
Which was the point about Teffilin of Rabbanu Tam. It is easy to forget what it means to be a Chassid, and to just define it by one who wears the garb.
For the 10000000th time: MIXED SWIMMING IS ASSUR. You cant swim mixed – even with yur wife. And yes I have a source — the Kedushas Shoshanim perek 17 seif 4 sez yur not aloud to look at yur wife when shes undressed even when tahor. Unless you swim fully clothed yur oiver on that. Theres no reason to say that theres an exception to mixed swimming with yur wife, just liek theres no exception to lashon hara with yur wife, or eating kosher with yur wife or any other mitzvah.
ummmm. a bathing suit means she is dressed
anyway you’re quoting an obscure source. It’s not in the shulchan aruch, mishnah brurah, tur, taz, shulchan aruch harav, kitzur shulchan aruch it’s called the kedushas shoshanim and you say it’s assur
How many times do I have to repeat myself? When someone identifies themselves as chassidish, of course it doesn’t make him more of a chosid, I only said that wearing chassidishe garb says that this person idendifies himself as belonging to the chassidishe group. DO YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE?????
no they don’t (oomis and wolfish)
no they don’t (oomis and wolfish)
Whatever. I concede the point. It’s not worth arguing over.
The Wolf
ummmm. a bathing suit means she is dressed
To be fair, I think he means “dressed in a tznius fashion.”
The Wolf
Also, mbachur, please learn to use the em tags (or at least use quotes) to distinguish between the post you’re responding to and your response. Otherwise, it gets very confusing.
The Wolf
please explain how to use em tags(ive asked before no one answered) i would greatly appreciate it.
“To be fair, I think he means “dressed in a tznius fashion.”
The Wolf”
“And yes I have a source — the Kedushas Shoshanim perek 17 seif 4 sez yur not aloud to look at yur wife when shes undressed even when tahor.”
it doesn’t sound like undressed means dressed in an untznius fashion
please explain how to use em tags(ive asked before no one answered) i would greatly appreciate it.
<em>Your text here</em>==========================================================
it doesn’t sound like undressed means dressed in an untznius fashion
If you say so. Not having seen the sefer he’s quoting from, I can only guess at what he means. Since people usually go swimming in a bathing suit and he’s saying it’s assur based on that sefer, I concluded that he meant that it’s assur to see one’s wife in a bathing suit (or, by extension, in any non-tznius fashion). That was my understanding of his statement. Nonetheless, I could be wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time.
The Wolf
People used to go swimming in the nude. When is this sefer from? maybe it’s from that tim frame and therefore it owuld be assur. But a bathing suit is not assur.
People used to go swimming in the nude. When is this sefer from? maybe it’s from that tim frame and therefore it owuld be assur. But a bathing suit is not assur.
If I’m reading MR correctly, the sefer doesn’t talk about swimming but seeing one’s wife. The swimming is extrapolated from that (since people generally don’t wear tznius bathing suits).
But then again, I could be wrong.
In any event, I disagree with him in his entirety on the subject.
The Wolf
let’s try it If you say so. Not having seen the sefer he’s quoting from, I can only guess at what he means. Since people usually go swimming in a bathing suit and he’s saying it’s assur based on that sefer, I concluded that he meant that it’s assur to see one’s wife in a bathing suit (or, by extension, in any non-tznius fashion). That was my understanding of his statement. Nonetheless, I could be wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time
“In any event, I disagree with him in his entirety on the subject.”
Should this discussion not be about the sources, rather than what *we* feel or “agree”?
If you were discussing what the sources have to say (even if there was a disagreement about *what* the sources say), that would be more understandable.
thaks a little confusing though
Gotta try this-i just type those ems???
please explain how to use em tags(ive asked before no one answered) i would greatly appreciate it.
Cmon, this is taking a lot of time and concentration.
Ok mbachur mybe you can use my idea too.
I did autotext-that when I type in /em it automatically changes it to and I just type the text in the middle.
Get it?
“I only said that wearing chassidishe garb says that this person idendifies himself as belonging to the chassidishe group. DO YOU REALLY NOT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE????? “
Not necessarily. There was a time when my husband who is NOT chassidish, wanted to wear a bekesheh. He did not identify with any chassidic group, just liked the look. There is a story of a Nazi who hid out amongst chassidim,and they never realized he was not one of them, until he was recognized by one of his victims. (That story may or may not be apocryphal – I have not checked it out).
I would think it is only assur for a man to see his own wife in a bathing suit or go swimming with her if she is a niddah.
I would think it is only assur for a man to see his own wife in a bathing suit or go swimming with her if she is a niddah.
I would think that too. Apparently MR seems to feel differently.
The Wolf
Mosherose,
Why do you quote obscure chumras and insist everone must also follow them?
whatever smartcookie i figured it out from the wolf
There is a story of a Nazi who hid out amongst chassidim,and they never realized he was not one of them, until he was recognized by one of his victims. (That story may or may not be apocryphal – I have not checked it out).
that is exactly the point! he identified himself as belonging to that chassidic group even though he wasn’t really a chassid
do you understand now oomis
mosherose-
i am in very close contact with my posek and i’ve seen many teshuvos about this, one is allowed to swim with ones wife. Period. End of story. Stop pushing chumrus on everyone. If you push too many chumrus… well learn from Adam harishon who assured everything about the eitz hadaas on chava, and were it lead to. You can follow chumrus for yourself, if your up to it but stop pushing it on everyone else.
that thing about chassidus and garb. it’s quite funny. i once had an argument with someone about who is “REALLY” chassidish. Either a bunch of young couples, almost shaved their beards… didn’t hold strong and tight to their hashkafa, only wore the levush… or someone who doesn’t wear the whole levush but is very shtark and strong in the hashgafos of his chassidus, more pnimius. i think today in general there’s way too much labeling. i got a call for shiduchim “so what would you say they are – haymish, chassidish, kalta litvak…” (i added kalta litvak) it’s disgusting! Were all here to serve Hashem, each follow the derech of their mesora till now, or how he feels he can grow closest to Hashem. Finish, genuk shoin with all this narishkeit. it’s all SO chitzoniusdik
sof davar,
the chitzonis is meorer the penimis
sof davar – “i am in very close contact with my posek and i’ve seen many teshuvos about this, one is allowed to swim with ones wife. Period. End of story.”
You’ve seen many teshuvos regarding swimming with your wife? Please share these many teshuvos with us. Please specifically mention which teshuva is from whom (which posek or sefer), and specifically what each of these many teshuvos that you’ve seen paskens, as well as the specific shaila.
Yasher Koach
c’mon everyone. maybe we can have a whole diff thread for swimming, the way this looks, i’ll be a long disscussion. let’s keep to the subject, k?
not trying to be annoying or anything, just that any time i see this on top of the list, i assume it’s about the girls, only to find it’s a thread about swimming with one’s wife.
“that is exactly the point! he identified himself as belonging to that chassidic group even though he wasn’t really a chassid
do you understand now oomis
“
Not if you are trying to make some point here… He was a PHONEY. He did not identify himself as BELONGING to that group. he didn’t share their hashkafa or even religion, as it turned out, he was a GOY. He used those chassidim, because it SERVED his purpose to do so, not because he was philosophically one of them. Do YOU understand, now, mbachur? I really am not sure what you are trying to say here.
ok oomis let’s try this again.
when someone asked this goy what are you did he say i’m a goy?
NO! he said i’m a chassid of this rebbe. He wanted everyone to think that (even though he wasn’t really) therefore he “identified himself as BELONGING to that group” even though he didn’t share their hashkafah
here’s the definition from webster’s dictionary online : to cause to be or become identical b : to conceive as united
if you look at b: to conceive as united did people concieve this nazi as united with the chassidim, yes
did he become identical
identical (2nd definition in webster) : having such close resemblance as to be essentially the same
Yes
now do you understand
when someone asked this goy what are you did he say i’m a goy?
What are you, three years old? Enough of this silly back and forth. It is not going anywhere, and once you feel the need to start checking with Webster’s, you have gotten way too into this.
It was a SIMPLE statement.People do not necessarily identify THEMSELVES as something just because they are dressed a certain
way. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they do not. A person who dresses like a chossid but is NOT one (and in this case might not have said anything at all, but simply blended in with the crowd), may have a number of reasons for doing so, NONE of which might be that he is actually emotionally connected to chassidus.
There was a model once (night have been an Israeli Jewish girl)who wore a TALLIS as a fashion statement. She liked the look. I cringed when I saw the picture of her, dressed inappropriately with a TALLIS worn like a shawl or cape. Did that Tallis make her a frum guy? Stop this already. You are getting a little too hyper, and need to dial it down a notch, IMO. And NO, I do NOT UNDERSTAND, so please stop asking me.
ok i understand your logic (i dont agree with it but i understand it)
“ok i understand your logic (i dont agree with it but i understand it)”
Thank you. Have a good Shabbos.
mosherose: does the Kedushas Shoshanim say its assur to look at her undressed when tahor – just like the mikva night when they are together it must be dark so he cannot fully see her? if so, it seems to be referring only to completely undressed. otherwise does the Kedushas Shoshanim imply he cannot look at her even if her elbow is uncovered (but is otherwise dressed)? if not, how is that different than a bathing suit?
Um…I don’t know that rather random sefer, but can we close this discussion about mixed swimming with one’s spouse? It’s mefurash in Halacha that it is obviously permissible; I am loath to quote the Rambam & Shulchan Aruch about this. Please, remember, something is permissible until proven otherwise. There is a halachic framework; it doesn’t work based on random seforim. There is a process.
Moshe’le, please leave the hanahgos of couples to the privacy it deserves. There is a whole realm of Halacha here which needs to be left to those who are married, in private halachic discussion. I presume it’s not relevant to you.
In fact, I appeal to the MODS on this. We tread dangerous ground.
For those of you still wondering, there’s a whole section in the shulchan aruch about this and you can all learn it for yourselves to get answers.
Anyway, Moq, you said well.
Anyone who is unsure about mixed swimming with one’s wife should call their Rabbi and ask a sheiloh.
sof davar – still waiting… Thanks
BTW, on an older thread Dave Hirsch quoted the Debreciner Rov zt’l, from his Responsa Sefer – Be’er Moshe (Chelek 4, Siman 122)
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Dave’s rough interpretation was: although it is permitted Al Pi Halacha, one should refrain.
re: Col Kavoada etc.
1. The MaHari Vayl ruled that we pasken that that Col Kavoda Bas Melech Pinima is not the din. He has an offenna gemora in Gitten. The Ramoh paskened like the MaHari Vayl.
2. The mesorah of B’Nei Ashkenaz is like the MaRi Vayl, witness all the doros where the women ran stores and businesses to support their husbands (incl. many gedolim) learning.
max well… still waiting for what? i’m sorry i’ve been very busy and haven’t been here for a while.
sof davar – see my comment addressed to you about 14 comments back.
MW – The posuk in Tehilim 45:14 says “Kul kevodo bas melech penima, mimishbetzos zohov lvusho. This means “The prestige of the Jewish princess is her privacy – she stays within the confines of her home; she dresses (at home) in delightful clothes.” Note that this posuk, which refers to modesty of Bnos Yisroel, mentions two points: First, the tznua is predominantly at home, not in the public areas (see Rambam, Hilchos Ishus 13:11). Secondly, while at home she dresses delightfully. Although she is a great tznua, she nonetheless attaches importance to her appearance in the presence of her husband.
Kul kevodo bas melech penima is clear-cut halacha per Shulchan Aruch (73:1). Its also a clear-cut Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 13:11), Rambam (Nedarim 12:11) Bereishis Rabah (8:12), Bereishis Rabah (45:5), Bereishis Rabah, (18:2), Medrash Tehilim (128:3), Kesef Mishneh, Rosh (Kesuvos 13:17), Rosh (Shevu’os 4:2), Teshuvos Maimoniyos (Mishpatim 5) [per the Gemorah Nazir 12a], and the gemorah itself Mesechtes Yevomos 76.
I challenge you to name a godol whose wife had a business outside the home. (The Chofetz Chaim had a grocery in the back of his house that his wife tended.)
re: Col Kavoada etc.
1. The MaHari Vayl ruled that we pasken that that Col Kavoda Bas Melech Pinima is not the din. He has an offenna gemora in Gitten. The Ramoh paskened like the MaHari Vayl.
2. The mesorah of B’Nei Ashkenaz is like the MaRi Vayl, witness all the doros where the women ran stores and businesses to support their husbands (incl. many gedolim) learning
mywife 1. who’s the MaHari Vayl
2. where’s this Ramoh
3. that could be that it doesn’t apply for working but for shmoozing in the street it for sure applies (meaning if it’s l’toeles)
Well then Max well, it seems that you are implying that the entire learning while your wife supports you system is wrong according to the halachos of tznius and all men should get up and support their wives immediately!!!!!! Women should stay home with the children while their husbands, work and shop for them. Wives belong at home with huge backyards and every thing they need right at their fingertips so they have no need to wander from their homes. This probably includes a swimming pool where they can swim alone, an exercise area and a play ground for the kids. There might also be a vegetable garden and a fruit orchard so she might pick her own fruits and vegetables. And of course a cordless phone so she can speak to her mother and friends and not go out of the house to visit them.
Sorry, I made a mistake, off the top of my head. It’s the MaHari Bruna (ben doro of MaHari Vayl) Siman 242. Look it up plus the gemora in Gitten (which refers to going OUT to get work).
Everyone here, is quoting non-halachik, midrashik & aggadik sources, which were never followed by B’Nei Ashkenaz. The Rambam lived in the Moslem world and was not the posek of B’Nei Ashkenaz or of their Minhagim.
Everyone here is expressing their subjective “boych” FEELINGS, without binding halachik sources in accordance with minhogai B’Nei Ashkenaz.
The MaHari Vayl and the MaHari Bruna are G’Dolei poskei B’Nei Ashkenaz in the mid 1400’s, whose theshvos are cited by the RaMo.
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